AHM #6 Review (SPOILERS)

[Jack Cade]

Baltar from Robotix?

[Brendocon]

Yeah. Why not.

[Jack Cade]

Ah, righto. Battlestar Gallactica.

Boltar wasn't even the traitor in Robotix, was he? It was that other fella.

[Yaya]

It's find it interesting that most here are not griping about the inexcusably slow pace of this story, but rather the dialogue, which I find vastly superior to Furman's verbal garbage.

Anyway, if I could sum up my feelings thus far, it would be in my own personal re-titling of this series as ....All Snail Megatron.

[Brendocon]

It's find it interesting that most here are not griping about the inexcusably slow pace of this story

All Fail Yaya.

We've been bitching about the pace for five months now. It's just you who's now catching up.

[Jack Cade]

...which I find vastly superior to Furman's verbal garbage.

Mystifying. I reckon I can match your bad Furman quotes with bad McCarthy quotes blow for blow. Difference is that Furman doesn't use dialogue to try to make up for the fact that characters don't distinguish themselves through their actions by having them essay each other.

[Mr_Tigg]

Mr_Tigg Wrote:
Just shaking my head at the IDW thread on this. After several pages during which some forum members try to convince others that continuity doesn't matter in the slightest, DJT sticks his head around the door to try to push the thread back in the direction of, "Awesome read! Love it!"

I increasingly get the idea that IDW have no idea what they're doing with regards to managing transformers. IMO they have given way too much freedom to Shane. That combined with the fact that most the other writers they have hired have been awful to average. It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that the only reason IDW tfs have been so good up to AHM is because Furman has been pretty much in entire creative control of the direction of the story. As soon as he is shifted out, the series devolves. I guess the warning signs were always there with some of the dodgey non-furman spotlights/series.

I hear that the reason Mowry's RoS is so good at building off the movie events is because Hasbro enforced editorial decisions to ensure it didn't contradict anything in the movie. I really think if IDW had done a similar thing there would be a lot less angry fans about the place.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

so then, Drift vs bludgeon?

same character minus the badge and erm character no?

[Yaya]

...which I find vastly superior to Furman's verbal garbage.

Mystifying. I reckon I can match your bad Furman quotes with bad McCarthy quotes blow for blow. Difference is that Furman doesn't use dialogue to try to make up for the fact that characters don't distinguish themselves through their actions by having them essay each other.

Furman doesn't distinguish one character from another period, either through dialogue or otherwise.

I can match all your bad McCarthy quotes with bad Furman quotes from but a few introductory pages of Maximum Dinobots #1.

See, the problem with Simon's dialogue is that his choice of words, the way he phrases things, gives him away as the writer, which should not happen. Instead of hearing the character talk, I hear Simon talking. What's worse, this same set of repetitive phrases extend to many characters, making them all sound the same.

Instead of Autobots and Decepticons, I'm hearing Simonbots and Furmocons.

In some fairness to Simon, it might be because I've read his stuff for two decades, but can't the guy change with times or something?

Granted, McCarthy might base his dialogue off the back of a toy box, but I much prefer that to hearing Furman over and over and over. It completely ruins a potentially strong comic experience for me, as his scripts usually can't be faulted (with exceptions, like the end of Stormbringer).

I used to cringe when I heard Ironhide speak with a Southern drawl. Now, thanks to Simon, it's like a breath of fresh air. Which it shouldn't be, because a bot with a hillbilly accent just makes no sense!

You know things are bad when you start yearning to hear Seaspray gurggle, Sharpnel repeat himself, and Cosmos ask for a burrito.

I propose that Simon write a story, and hand it over to others more qualified than he in producing effective dialogue.

[Yaya]

It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that the only reason IDW tfs have been so good up to AHM is because Furman has been pretty much in entire creative control of the direction of the story. As soon as he is shifted out, the series devolves.

No, because sales declined even when Simon was steering the ship.

IDW made a mistake in bringing Simon on in the first place, if you ask me. Not because he's a bad writer, but because IDW needed a big name writer with some general appeal to the comic community. (No, not Shane).

Transformers will never maintain sales with Simon, period. Simon is a niche player, hate to say it. He appeals to most British TF fans, some non-Brit fans, and distances the rest.

IDW needs to chuck Simon out, go Ultimates with a more mature take on the Transformers, bringing in a bigger name writer if they want to see sales pick up.

Shane may not be the answer, but Simon never was, not from a sales perspective.

[Sunyavadin]

If I were them and wanting to branch out and get sales up, I'd consider names like Dan Abnett or Pat Mills.

[Yaya]

I'm not sure who I'd recommend, to be honest, because being a great writer wouldn't be enough here. It would be essential that the writer know the material and be familiar with the Transformers to some degree. I don't know if the Millars or Brubakers know squat about the Transformers.

[Mr_Tigg]

Yaya Wrote:
Shane may not be the answer, but Simon never was, not from a sales perspective

I would genuinely like to see a sales comparison of AHM with Furman's stuff. Every time I go into a comic store, there are stacks of AHM - never was the case with any -tion arcs in same comic stores.

Yaya Wrote:
IDW needs to chuck Simon out, go Ultimates with a more mature take on the Transformers, bringing in a bigger name writer if they want to see sales pick up.

I agree a maturer angle would be better, but AHM definitely isn't it, and tbh I don't think following an ultimates approach is either, considering how dire the average ultimate [insert superhero name/team here] happens to be. I read a fair few of the earlier ones, (x-men volume 1-10, F4 vol. 1 & 2, Spiderman Vol. 1-4, Ultimates Vol. 1-3) and thought they were awful to be frank. Having said that, I don't rate marvel that highly at all.

Yara Wrote:
Furman doesn't distinguish one character from another period, either through dialogue or otherwise.
[/b]

Its funny you say that - I find that with background characters (such as jazz/wheeljack in the -tion arc) I would agree with you, but not so much for predominant characters. I much prefer the facts that Furman injects some intelligence into characters, especially soundwave and grimlock.

It's the opposite with McCarthy, it's like he's trying too hard to make them sound like there geewun selves on occasions. Consequently it's like reading a transformers pantomine full of charicatures, rather than actually getting a sense of depth of personality from a character.

In terms of writers, I wouldn't mind the Fables scribe (Bill Whittingham?) - he's pretty good. Also think Mowry should be given his own mini.

[Best First]

It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that the only reason IDW tfs have been so good up to AHM is because Furman has been pretty much in entire creative control of the direction of the story. As soon as he is shifted out, the series devolves.

No, because sales declined even when Simon was steering the ship.

IDW made a mistake in bringing Simon on in the first place, if you ask me. Not because he's a bad writer, but because IDW needed a big name writer with some general appeal to the comic community. (No, not Shane).

Transformers will never maintain sales with Simon, period. Simon is a niche player, hate to say it. He appeals to most British TF fans, some non-Brit fans, and distances the rest.

This is a fallacious arguement.

Yes sales have fallen with Simon on the title, but that does not mean Simon is the reason for sales falling.

Prior to IDW a lot of fans got burned for good by the quality of DW (who did put out a regular title so the comic's creators can be blamed for that) and the subsequent DW implosiion.

Since IDW started there has been poor marketing (look at the push AHM has had compared to the other TF series, it takes the piss), delays, a confusing title schedule and big gaps between series.

These things are just as credible reasons for fans falling off the title.

It doesn't mean it isn't Simon's either but as it stands you are assuming why other people have dropped the title and stating it as fact.

Equally the notion that we are going to get a 'big player' on TFs is a pipe dream - big players don't want a toy company telling them they can't have blood on a shoe. People of Simon's 'level' are the kind of writers we are going to get.

Also, for the record your repeated assertions about Simon's dialougue and characters continue to ring hollow. Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

[KJ]

Not everyone is as hardcore a fan as we are. (Anyone who posts on a messageboard regularly about it is a hardcore fan to me)

How could the average reader have followed the IDW Transformers main storyline?

They couldn't. Months between installments, and out of sight is out of mind.

Also, a lot of people weren't buying the Spotlights, yet they ended up being necessary for the main story.

And the decision to release Revelations as spotlights was just stupid. I cannot understand the logic behind that. I know from firsthand interactions that regular readers didn't know about Revelations, I had to let my LCS guy know that it WAS the next part of the story.

Not to mention the lack of quality control. How many errors were there? The rise in errors also correlates with the dropping sales. I think it's also an important one to look at. How many editors has the line gone through?

I don't find it entirely fair to place the 'failure' of the line squarely on Simon's shoulders. There were other factors at play that get neglected.

[Yaya]

It doesn't mean it isn't Simon's either but as it stands you are assuming why other people have dropped the title and stating it as fact.

I don't find it entirely fair to place the 'failure' of the line squarely on Simon's shoulders. There were other factors at play that get neglected.

I never said Simon was soley to blame for the 'failure' of the line.

I said that IDW should have gone after a bigger name, and passed Simon over, for the very reasons mentioned above about getting burned by DW. There had to be some big draw.

Come to think of it, the best move IDW could have made was to continue where DW left off, with McDonough on the ongoing present and Furman on the ongoing past.

Sounds crazy, but that "getting slighted" feeling by fans would not have been a factor, and sales could have possibly continued in the 20,000's as they were.

Equally the notion that we are going to get a 'big player' on TFs is a pipe dream - big players don't want a toy company telling them they can't have blood on a shoe. People of Simon's 'level' are the kind of writers we are going to get.

Sad, but true. We have reached desparate times. Fans are now being called out of the audience to sing their own songs, in fact.

The best approach would be to accept that there are limitations.

[sprunkner]

Is it safe to come out now?

IDW made a mistake in bringing Simon on in the first place, if you ask me. Not because he's a bad writer, but because IDW needed a big name writer with some general appeal to the comic community. (No, not Shane).

Well, they were really cleaning up Dreamwave's mess, and one of the ways to do that was to hand it to someone with experience both writing and editing and dealing with the TFs.

Also--repeating my review--Simon didn't really find his feet with IDW until the Spotlights. He was writing to the wrong tactic in Infiltration and Stormbringer--and I think a lot of that was constraint by the needs of different miniseries. Infiltration, Stormbringer Escalation and the first round of Spotlights could have easily been the first ten or twelve issues of an ongoing. Considering how much he packed into G2 and the last twelve issues of the Marvel ongoing, the miniseries format doesn't quite suit him.

The miniseries tack was the wrong direction for the story, but IDW seems to be standing by it for the purposes of sales. Which may be a good idea--but at the same time, Avengers isn't hurt by being an ongoing divided into different Civil War and Secret Invasion arcs.

Also--look at this board--there are a lot of people who will buy TFs just because of Furman. The corollary isn't people who will avoid TF comics because Furman is writing them, but those who will buy ANYTHING that says TF, whether it's Furman or not. From that point of view, it's better off for IDW to always have Furman on board.

And Furman's ticks might be a little too Chris Claremont, but they're no more annoying than the choppy dialogue of Brian Michael Bendis or the "as-you-know-Bobs" of Mark Millar. Every comic writer wears out their old tricks after a while.

However, I do agree that the TFs need to attract names like unto Furman--niche writers with a bit of a following like Dan Abnett, Andy Lanning and Judd Winick. (Imagine the TF version of Exiles, heh.)

[Brendocon]

(Imagine the TF version of Exiles, heh.)

Let's not. I've worked hard to forget RobotMasters.

[Guest]

Is it safe to come out now?

Almost.

WOPR has been playing TIC TAC TOE in "Number of Players: 0" mode for a while now, but we have yet to be asked whether we'd like to play a nice game of Chess.

[Jack Cade]

IDW made a mistake in bringing Simon on in the first place, if you ask me. Not because he's a bad writer, but because IDW needed a big name writer with some general appeal to the comic community. (No, not Shane).

Transformers will never maintain sales with Simon, period. Simon is a niche player, hate to say it. He appeals to most British TF fans, some non-Brit fans, and distances the rest.

Bold assertions, Yaya, but I don't find them convincing in themselves and I don't see much backing them up. At the very least, the other problems with the line must, one would expect, have made a significant contribution to declining sales. It wasn't ever really a collection of miniseries - it just tried to appear that way. What it actually was was an ongoing series that suffered from being squeezed into small arcs. Not only were existing readers finding it hard to know what to look out for next, but new readers were getting burned all the time. Every time I saw a review on IGN, it's been someone who's decided to pick up a spotlight or issue one, deeming it a suitable entry point, and found themselves way out of their depth.

AHM, of course, scores a similar double-own goal, alienating existing fans while failing to introduce any of its cast in a manner that allows new readers to understand the basics. It's aimed squarely at long-term TF fans who're familiar with the one-note cartoon personalities and want to see them expanded upon (and even that some of them are frustrated with it!)

Going back to Furman vs McCarthy, I completely disagree that Furman's characters are indistinguishable, although I agree that there's often a 'Furman' voice that comes through which makes them *sound* alike. As much as I think this could be easily improved upon with some serious editing, I really don't see much of that improvement in McCarthy's work. The 'cartoon voice' syndrome is exaggerated - most of his characters are simply written in a very dull, workmanlike way. Instead of 'Fumanisms', he has the irritating habit of having Transformers refer to each other as 'men', 'brothers', 'kids' etc. While Furman's characters sound like Simon Furman, McCarthy's often sound like 'generic comic writer trying to approximate tough and uncompromising'.

So, really, as far as I can see, neither writer is able to lend the characters a great deal of distinction through dialogue. But dialogue is only one way of distinguishing characters. Furman distinguishes them instead by giving them a constant stream of plot-driven dilemmas to react to. Admittedly, during a crowded arc like Revelations, only a few of the cast get this treatment, but at least some do.

McCarthy's technique, on the other hand, thus far has been the hugely contrived 'wowcool' moment and the second-person mini-essay, which isn't really suitable for the medium - the limited space makes them seem rushed and weak by the standards of a decent novel. Are we really supposed to be convinced that Megatron and Starscream's relationship is as it is described by each of them? Because to me it really smacks of a simulation of depth, rather than actual depth. He's got *ideas* for making these characters important and real, but he doesn't know how to go about implementing those ideas.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I think a decline in sales has nothing to do with the writer but the poor marketing and more importantly the piss poor release shedual.

[stranger]

Come to think of it, the best move IDW could have made was to continue where DW left off, with McDonough on the ongoing present and Furman on the ongoing past.

Sounds crazy, but that "getting slighted" feeling by fans would not have been a factor, and sales could have possibly continued in the 20,000's as they were.

Not that simple... you can't just pick up and run with a story that was being published by another entity. IDW would have needed to put some money DW's way (as the company was bought by someone else), not to mention possibly picking up the missing money Mad Brick was owed to get them back on board. All in all, I don't think it would have been even slightly economically viable.

[Yaya]

I think a decline in sales has nothing to do with the writer but the poor marketing and more importantly the piss poor release shedual.

At the very least, the other problems with the line must, one would expect, have made a significant contribution to declining sales.

Never said these weren't valid points. I tend to agree that the ridiculous gaps between arcs hurt sales. They killed any momentum the series had, and made what came before a long lost memory.

But given what we have now, does anyone really think sales would increase without a big name on the book?

Going back to Furman vs McCarthy, I completely disagree that Furman's characters are indistinguishable, although I agree that there's often a 'Furman' voice that comes through which makes them *sound* alike. As much as I think this could be easily improved upon with some serious editing, I really don't see much of that improvement in McCarthy's work. The 'cartoon voice' syndrome is exaggerated - most of his characters are simply written in a very dull, workmanlike way. Instead of 'Fumanisms', he has the irritating habit of having Transformers refer to each other as 'men', 'brothers', 'kids' etc. While Furman's characters sound like Simon Furman, McCarthy's often sound like 'generic comic writer trying to approximate tough and uncompromising'.

Choose your poison. I choose 'cartoon voice' (though I still don't really agree it sounds like the cartoon)



[/quote]

[Mr_Tigg]

Jack Cade Wrote:
McCarthy's technique, on the other hand, thus far has been the hugely contrived 'wowcool' moment and the second-person mini-essay, which isn't really suitable for the medium - the limited space makes them seem rushed and weak by the standards of a decent novel. Are we really supposed to be convinced that Megatron and Starscream's relationship is as it is described by each of them? Because to me it really smacks of a simulation of depth, rather than actual depth. He's got *ideas* for making these characters important and real, but he doesn't know how to go about implementing those ideas.

Gah! that's what i've been trying to say for ages, but couldn't quite articulate it properly.

[Manchester Devil]

Yaya, it's all right saying the book needs a bigger name to increase sales but are you willing to place names on the table or are you happy just sitting on the fence yelling "We need a big name to increase sales!" like its the cure for the flaws in IDW's strategy. Besides, most comic fans would rather have humans in comedy spandex hitting each other than a war between two sets of shape-shiftingrobots.

And what's to stop the "bigger than Furman" writer coming up with something that makes AHM look like Revelation in comparsion and thus destroy his reputation as a "big(gish) writer".

And frankly I'd rather had Furmanisms than the inspired-by-the-cartoon slop being served up by McCarthy.

*EDIT*

All Hail Jack

[Mr_Tigg]

Manchester Devil Wrote:
And frankly I'd rather had Furmanisms than the inspired-by-the-cartoon slop being served up by McCarthy.

I second that. The character's in AHM are so...two dimensional. It's like beyond the dialogue that's written to supposedly makes them sound more individual (cue soundwave talking like a retard) there is no actual substance .

I don't like the way simon became the scape goat. IMO IDW need to look at the way they are running things in general and tear a few things up. They desperately need to sort out the timeline business that is so confusing about the -tion arc.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

doesn't matter if u have a bigger writter, if IDW Market the comic like they have and release/rename comics using a shedual akin to the second comming of Christ, then it won't matter who writes it!

speaking of a bigger writter, which big writter knows the TF franchise well enough? otherwise u will end up with the cartoon on paper.

Furmans your man as he knows TF, and can string a plot together.

ok, get a big writter and put furmsn on as editor or somthing, that's my best compromise.

bring back impactor etc....

[Yaya]

ok, get a big writter and put furmsn on as editor or somthing, that's my best compromise.

Or keep Furman as writer, and get someone else to write the dialogue.

[KJ]

Come to think of it, the best move IDW could have made was to continue where DW left off, with McDonough on the ongoing present and Furman on the ongoing past.

Sounds crazy, but that "getting slighted" feeling by fans would not have been a factor, and sales could have possibly continued in the 20,000's as they were.

Not that simple... you can't just pick up and run with a story that was being published by another entity. IDW would have needed to put some money DW's way (as the company was bought by someone else), not to mention possibly picking up the missing money Mad Brick was owed to get them back on board. All in all, I don't think it would have been even slightly economically viable.

Yeah, plus at the time there was a lot of uncertainty surrounding the DW tailend stuff (heck, I think there still is). So they probably would have been legally unable to continue things there.

And anyway, the DW sales were pretty poor at the end. They weren't figures to be proud of, and it wouldn't have been a wise decision anyway, even if they could have continued it, to do so. Why do that and appeal to a very small segment, when they could reboot and get some new eyes on board?

Especially considering that even IF they could have continued from Dreamwave's ongoing, they wouldn't have been able to reprint any of it. Difficult for new people to jump on board, and not what you want when starting fresh.

Rebooting was the only real option available to them.

[Jack Cade]

Choose your poison. I choose 'cartoon voice' (though I still don't really agree it sounds like the cartoon)

And frankly I'd rather had Furmanisms than the inspired-by-the-cartoon slop being served up by McCarthy.

Apart from Soundwave talking like a disturbed child, I don't really hear this 'cartoon voice' much. It's more the roles he's had people assume - Ironhide on a short fuse, Starscream as a simpering whiner, Megatron as a posturing Dick Dastardly, the rest of the Deceps as goons - that reeks of cartoon. Most of the dialogue is just dull and plodding, hobbled with infodumps, or straining hard to give its character hard man kudos.

Or keep Furman as writer, and get someone else to write the dialogue

Furman with a really good editor. That's all you need.