Megatron:Origin In continuity or out?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:19 pm

Since this is a board that draws it's very sustenence from controversy, I thought I'd broach this onging topic from the IDW boards here.

Denton has asked whether M:O should remain a part of IDW continuity. (obviously Shane, Simon, or both have plans regarding the TF's past and feel shackled).

Should a publisher have the right to decide whether a poorly received previously published tale remain a part of continuity? Paritculary when said story was meant to be in continuity originally?

Me? I say "yes".

What say you?

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:27 pm

It's a bit cheap really. The easy thing to do is wish it away, the credible thing to do would be to try and turn it into something worthwhile.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:46 pm

It was a dream Megatron had when Optimus lobotomized him in War Within.

Mmmm, Different reality!

Then it was a dream Megatron had when Thunderwing was turning Cybertron into Swiss cheese.

stranger · Post by **stranger** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:04 pm

Whats the point of officially erasing it? Can't see what it achieves. I find it's timing highly amusing, given that Shane McCarthy's currently pissing all over continuity at a whim.

What I will say is that it's bloody harsh on the writer if it is removed. If it is indeed true that the usual half arsed project managment/editorial effort that IDW seem to excel at is the reason its so bobbins in the first place, it's a pretty poor message.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:49 pm

Yes, but it's not really being whisked away or erased from existence, just moved.

Megatron:Origin is something that can stand on it's own, really, given it's being the earliest story told. Others are affected by it, but it is not affected by others.

Still, that's not really the point, is it?

stranger · Post by **stranger** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:56 pm

True, although where do you draw the line?

Anyway - I don't think it was a serious statement... They guy was probably just being narky, like they always seem to get when they get any serious critique of their work.

Manchester Devil · Post by **Manchester Devil** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:44 pm

If you're going to remove, say, Megatron: Origin from the 'main' TF line, then what's going to stop, let's say, Simon Furman from removing All Hail Megatron from said 'main' TF line as Shane has been far more damaging to IDW than Eric Holmes ever was.

As stranger said, where do you draw the line?

Hound · Post by **Hound** » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:44 pm

Maybe not the best comparison, but I liken it to the character Wheelie - generally everyone hates him and the easiest thing to do is pretend he never exists and not write him into stories, or worse, kill him off in wanky botcon comics.

Someone decides to write a worthwhile story with him, we get the wonderful Wheelie spotlight, and suddenly I give a crap about him and want to read more.

Like I said, maybe not the best comparison, but something good can come out of something bad. There's a lot of stories that could be told during that period of TF history, it doesn't have to start and end with Megatron Origins.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:16 am

Of course you can. Speaking as a Spider Man guy, the sort of thing has happened two times:

1. Spider Man Chapter 1 by John Byrne in the late 90s was meant to be a "Man of Steel" type origin retelling that would then serve as continuity, but after poor reaction, was fogotten and never talked about again. The origin reverted to the original.

2. Trouble, a series by Mark Millar which (and I have NO idea why they did this) was like a teen pop soap opera comic where IIRC it is found out that Auny May was actually Peter's mother, but Mary Parker had claimed the baby was hers to avoid the scandal of unmarried teen pregnancy, or something to that effect. It was supposed to become canon, Joe Q was excited, but sales tanked, people's jaws were dropped with incredulity, and everyone has forgotten the whole thing.

Sadly, fictional characters are first and foremost an intellectual property meant to make money. If M:O has turned off fans, or if they feel they can make more $$$ by ignoring the story and telling a NEW ORIGIN completly different, then that's what they're going to do.

Post by **Best First** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:19 am

Yeah but i think there is a difference between just kind of... forgetting about stuff and openly removing them.

In addition - both of your examples are retcons that tanked. Its a bit different to chucking out the original continuity. As Ben says, find a way to view it through a different perspective, say make it a legend rather than fact

"They say Megatron came from nowhere, a humble worker rising through the games to eventually fell a Prime. That's what they say, but the truth... the truth is somewhat different"

Take the coal, make a diamond.

blah, etc.

Or get your act together and don't commission such dross in the first place. Whoops!

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:29 am

"They say Megatron's head was just a hat that he wore, and so was Optimus's, but the truth is rather different..."

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:07 pm

Best First wrote: "They say Megatron came from nowhere, a humble worker rising through the games to eventually fell a Prime. That's what they say, but the truth... the truth is somewhat different"

Hey. I like that idea better than any others I've heard so far.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:57 am

Yep, we need the whole 'miner' thing retconned. That's what bugged me most about the whole thing, plus that Megs (a strategical genius) is portrayed as a "Me Hulk Angry, me Smash!" type of guy...

Let's say Megs was a soldier, a high-ranking officier who fought in wars outside Cybertron (surely Cybertron had contact with other species already) and got disbanded for his ambitions/recklessness/etc. Certainly a better origin then making him into a TF version of Hitler (lowly nobody becoming maniacal ruler).

Too bad Simon already referenced elements of MO in devastation (when showing Screamer as Megs bodyguard in a flashback).

And of course, we need to get the whole "Clench getting killed" thing retconned. I want to see the big guy featured in more stories!

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:17 am

Metal Vendetta wrote:"They say Megatron's head was just a hat that he wore, and so was Optimus's, but the truth is rather different..."

The story that will change the way you think about robot hats FOREVER

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:02 pm

Since it seems to have some slight contradictions with Spotlight:Blurr, continuity-wise, I'd say one or the other is out. And I know which one most people would say :P

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:42 pm

Spotlight: Blurr may be a bit wanky, but is it truly as wanky as M:O?

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:44 pm

It's basically a moot point, as others have said, now that we have AHM. I, for one, am likely to go on from this with my own version of what the IDW continuity really consists of, and act on that so far as I have any influence over what others read. "You've got Furman's main continuity, you've got your spotlights - stop there and do yourself a favour."

Unless, of course, something pretty clever is pulled off.

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:44 am

What these two said.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:56 am

Yeah, depending on how the Furmaverse wraps up - as it stands you have a great few years of stuff, wrapped up in a bit of a rush again. Which i am pretty used to, obvioulsy.

In some ways its better to just disect it rather than try and reconcile it with the sub par AHM.

I'm not one of these 'at least we have a TF comic' types - if we have a poor comic its a poor comic- i'd rather have nothing.

Sunyavadin · Post by **Sunyavadin** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:57 pm

Oh but surely you liked EXTREME Ghostbusters.

And Judge Dredd: LOTF

And Team Knight Rider

AMIRITE?

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:54 pm

Best First wrote:I'm not one of these 'at least we have a TF comic' types - if we have a poor comic its a poor comic- i'd rather have nothing.

Yes. (a) Like when a favourite band goes crap, it reflects badly on the fan, (b) official tripe encourages unofficial tripe and we all drown, and (c) it's like seeing a once-magnificent beast staggering around with its cojones bloodily removed, its claws filed down and its mane inexpertly shorn.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:04 pm

Best First wrote:I'm not one of these 'at least we have a TF comic' types - if we have a poor comic its a poor comic- i'd rather have nothing.

I feel the opposite. If we have a comic, even if it's sucky, there's still a chance that something good will arise later.

Case in point. Budiansky's final run on the Marvel TF comic was some of the worst crap I had ever seen, even as a young tike, the nadir of all Transformers comics even til today. . We had Skullgrin as a Hollywood actor, Roadhandler as a professional wrestler, Iguanus climbing the Empire State Building with a girl in his hand and Ratbat running a carwash. A carwash.....of doom.

Had it been axed at that point, there never would have been that incredible Furman run that pretty much saved Transformers for every child.

The comic was in its death throes. Simon came along at #56, and performed creative CPR and the rest, as they say, is history.

Jack Cade · Post by **Jack Cade** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:15 pm

But you say yourself "the comic was in its death throes". I'm all for a comic in its death throes needing to be saved by some spectacular intervention. That's rather different to the current situation where Denton has apparently hacked out the next three years of continuity with Hasbro and it seems more likely than not that a string of movie franchise tie-ins will keep the brand healthy. No one's going to save the day unless IDW suddenly develop some artistic integrity and change it for the sake of making it better (fly, piggies, fly!)

Plus, the fact that they're apparently keeping Furman around for the odd future project and insist that AHM is part of the same continuity means that it's incredibly difficult for Joe Public to vote with his feet - if AHM turns him off Transformers, he's unlikely to suss that Max Dinos - a comic published by the same company that takes place in the same continuity - is any better.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:21 pm

I think what has really bothered me more of late is Hasbro's involvement.

I mean, yes, there's no real way to get around it, but almost assuredly they have axed some very mature and adult-oriented storylines to preserve the younger fanbase's connection with the property so that they continue to sell toys.

Which is sound business practice, so who can fault them.

But as a 30-something year-old comic fan, it really lays the smack down on the license's potential and appeal.

Marvel and D.C. will always be more at liberty to target older audiences. They are not beholden to similiar constraints.

Transformers, on the other hand, will never truly reach it's potential except in the form of fan fiction.

Post by **Denyer** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:46 pm

Jack Cade wrote:It's basically a moot point, as others have said, now that we have AHM. I, for one, am likely to go on from this with my own version of what the IDW continuity really consists of, and act on that so far as I have any influence over what others read. "You've got Furman's main continuity, you've got your spotlights - stop there and do yourself a favour."

Unless, of course, something pretty clever is pulled off.

Yeah, it isn't currently possible to recommend the series from where I'm sitting... and unfortunately that goes for the whole shebang, since Furman stacked too much stuff leading into Revelation. Can't see it all getting wrapped in MD, and there's nothing to look forward to beyond MD except for a smattering of Spotlights.

Yaya wrote:I mean, yes, there's no real way to get around it, but almost assuredly they have axed some very mature and adult-oriented storylines to preserve the younger fanbase's connection with the property so that they continue to sell toys.

Which is sound business practice,

Where's the connection? Classics? If the line needs the level of support that $4 comics sold at outlets kids don't go to can provide, it's dead in the water. With convention toys, comics provide some semblance of a reason for people with more money than sense to fork out for them.

I'm not buying that this is entirely Hasbro's fault when there've been editorial issues. Especially when established designs have carried forward into current books.

edit:

Also mildly perturbed (but not surprised) that someone's comment that they've had Escalation on order for almost a year got scrubbed from that Q&A thread.

How are people supposed to get into a title when they can't frigging buy it?

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:38 am

Yaya wrote:I think what has really bothered me more of late is Hasbro's involvement.

I mean, yes, there's no real way to get around it, but almost assuredly they have axed some very mature and adult-oriented storylines to preserve the younger fanbase's connection with the property so that they continue to sell toys.

Which is sound business practice, so who can fault them.

But as a 30-something year-old comic fan, it really lays the smack down on the license's potential and appeal.

Marvel and D.C. will always be more at liberty to target older audiences. They are not beholden to similiar constraints.

Transformers, on the other hand, will never truly reach it's potential except in the form of fan fiction.

I doubt it was Hasbro's doing. IMHO, I think what Hasbro added was the transformation of the characters into the Universe toy bodies, to sell toys. But the rest was Ryall's decision.

Frankly, I don't understand why they couldn't have left Revelations well enough alone - maybe move it to the sidelines, not as the main comic -and start a new series, separately, for the "Geewunners". Like, call it "Transformers - as you remember it from the old cartoon!" - 'Come see your childhood heroes as you remember it! See Optimus save the day! See Megatron rehearse his famous line, "Decepticons retreat!" See Starscream bitch-slapped! Grimlock wearing an apron serving tea! Gestalts vs. Gestalts vs. city-bots extravaganza!'

Then the toonies would have been happy, and we could also have had our regular dose of monthly furmanisms...

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:19 pm

Jack Cade wrote:(fly, piggies, fly!)

BB Shockwave wrote: See Optimus save the day! See Megatron rehearse his famous line, "Decepticons retreat!" See Starscream bitch-slapped! Grimlock wearing an apron serving tea!

I like you guys.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:31 am

sprunkner wrote:
Jack Cade wrote:(fly, piggies, fly!)

BB Shockwave wrote: See Optimus save the day! See Megatron rehearse his famous line, "Decepticons retreat!" See Starscream bitch-slapped! Grimlock wearing an apron serving tea!
I like you guys.

Always happy to entertain...

On a side not, Masterpiece Grimlock WILL have an apron and tea-tray accessory... I'm forgiving that because he'll also have his Marvel comics crown.