TFTM vs TFTM (probable spoilers)

Post by **Kaylee** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:16 am

Indeed, if I may venture, chill out peoples. Liking/not liking is absolutely fine- we don't need to get into fights about it (I'm looking in your direction HS- calm it down a bit matey).

Hot Shot · Post by **Hot Shot** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:32 am

I wasn't fighting, simply debating. I don't remember being frustrated until Divebomb accused me of pulling my foundation for each reason out of a hat and withdrew.

I guess this "arguement" has run its course.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:18 am

Going back to the old movie - all i see is technicall nit picks, u know like, could Unicron TF? well, put simply yes, if I scale up optimus prime to a planet, why not?
How does he sort TF out of the rubble, who cares, perhaps he teleports them out, selects what he wants, and sends them for processing or somthing. they are melted down into raw energy and used for power. seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Remember he seems to have access to advanced energy systems, he re-formats megatron into galvatron using a beam of light, so I rekon teleportation or somthing isnt beyond him...

They are tiny details, we could argue, how the [composite word including 'f*ck'] do TF even exist would be better. but they are techy sciences based details.

Now, thats not my problem with the new movie, its the entire direction I dont like, so my problem sits with Bay himself, and I heard many ppl leave the cinema and say the same thing, the designs made it hard to follow.

Now bare in mind for a few seconds im a product designer with a strong background in Visulisation, I use the same software as ILM and understand every process involved, I can assure u that using the G1 models would have been simply, and could have worked.

Now, and lets be mega clear, im not asking for a G1 remake, I dont mind new forms or anything but the designs were over complex and didnt lend themselves to high speed action at all.

Also, bays use of the TF was limited to them sneaking around a house like they are stupid or somthing, and messy fight scene at the end that doesnt work.

As films go, the direction and pacing of the orginal TF movie is far better, its alot easier to understand whats happening, and the plot holds up.
U might not thing the science does but then I can level that argument at pretty much any scifi.

divebomb · Post by **divebomb** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:41 am

Hot Shot wrote:I wasn't fighting, simply debating. I don't remember being frustrated until Divebomb accused me of pulling my foundation for each reason out of a hat and withdrew.

and I accused you of that when?

Me an the missus watched the original movie again last night (first time for her) and she did say she enjoyed the new movie better, however I think they both have merits and at the end of the day if you didnt like the new direction of bots it was always gonna be a bit of a let down. Little things in the old movie still get me like galvy flying past and shaking his fist as if he was an old guy, and starscreams coronation. The gf even shed a tear when ironhide got blasted in the face!

Impy your points in the last comment are completely valid, yes they could have made the bots more g1-esque using the software, but would it have got them the oscar which they're blatently gonna get next year

Oscar winning and transformers, words that you never thought you would hear might just come true!!

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:30 am

The new movie is better, the old movie is closer to my heart.

Impy, the old movie was full of nonsensical plots and plot holes. Rose tinted spectacles perhaps?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:23 am

On the subject of the CGI, yes they could have made them look G1, and NO I dont think they should have, the new designs display a more belivable sense to them but are over complicated.
They simply dont work on film, I have a very fast eye, and even I found it hard to distinguish what was happening on screen.

Now, back to the old film, plot holes are not my problem with either movie, I dont think thier are as many in the old film as there are the new film, but thats not my problem, its to do with direction, unless a plot hole is huge and gaping, so much so that someone who just died, is suddenly alive 1 hour later for apparent reason, they dont matter. Plot holes are only a concern if they break up the movie for you, if they pull u from the story and sitrub your ride through the film, i actully think the new film has bigger problems then the last.
Again, a common question I heard was, how come the army can just kill them now?

Another issue I have with the new film is the acting of the TFs, they deliver thier lines badly, and u might argue its hard to do, but it doesnt seem hard in pirates of the cab, for davey jones's crew to deliver theres, I think thats just bad animation.
More importantly the direction is very poor, it starts to skip and jump around towards the 2nd half of the movie to the point where I had lost interest and was feeling embaressed by it all. we have these long panning shots of some cars in a desert, then they are at some base, then to the dam, back on the road, someone gos one way, then another, in the city, out of the city, we need to reach the city, no, leave the city....ugh, thats not 'action' thats a mess.
And the point where all the other decepticons were activated, and they rolled out, with thier names along the bottom of the screen, I wanted to leave the cinema, that was so ******* tacky, what a lame way to bring in some new faces.
How come the cons have more? why were the autobots just waiting in space... plot holes that were not serious but I still cant answer.

And I have no problem with Galvatron shaking his fist at people, thats who who he is, he hates his time being wasted by inferior robots. Welcome to cinema!
And as for dissing Starscreams corontation, my god, thats pure genius, crap, even my older sister, my dad, not my mum as she wont watch it, love that scene, it has a bit of comedy, Starscream FINALY gets his day, only for Megatron to finaly get his.
perfect.

The new film paces itself by having 30 foot robots hide around a house, wow! - great... no, This sugests they are stupid; and Optimus lets BB get taken down whilst hiding under a bridge like a monkey... wow!, again, no, 5 mins later they attack the feds instead, ignoring the, lets not hurt humans bit, lets just scare them! should have done that to save BB then, daft.
Then, when we do get a fight, in a city, OP is lame, again, spends alot of time swinging about like a monkey; aha i see what Bay was doing, he thinks its Beastwars!
Seriously, OP was sooo crap, he was a big old monkey, that did nothing at all, acted like he couldnt be bothered, got bossed by Megatron, sounded to old, like he lacked energy, seriously go watch the cartoon, hes all hyped up, now he sounds bored. He hardley came across as the Heroic OP we know, and im pretty sure Bay wanted the heroic OP, they just didnt get it right.... Oh I know, the plot has him prepared to self sacrifice himself, how noble, but the thing was, I didnt care if he did or not.
Pllus his intentions were cracked, without OP, to lead the autbots, and stuff, megatron would have free reign of earth, there would be [composite word including 'f*ck'] all to stop him turning earth into cybertron by enslaving the human race... oh actually, a few men in the US Army, Doh! sorry I forgot, TF are about as tough as Ford escorts, so no real worry there I suppose.
At times, Megatron actually came across as being utterly hardcore and evil but you couldnt make out a damm thing, hes all hard edges and angles, ANd apart from his face, made him very hard o understand, in the end I find your just watching a humanoid mass, purely to keep up with the action.

And, onto the oscars, im not sure who will get best Special effect, im not denying TF has some amazingly life like CGI but then we have good old Pirates 3, it cost more, is made by disney and ppl like jhonny depp.
Im pretty sure they will get the oscar for special effects. Then u can watch 4 hours of montages, where bill nightly gos on about how 'hard' it is to act with these 'funny' balls on his face, and having to act on a green screen!
Yes we know hows its done now, its been the same for the last decade or so...
The again, the TF one would be funny!
"so whats it like acting with Optimus Prime"
-"well I wasnt a fan of the orginal series, i wasnt born, so i didnt know who this guy was but hes huge, and scary and stuff, and im so ******* patronising!"

please...Ok, I find the the new film ok, its really average for me, And just doesnt work on a few levels: I dont like the designs because i think they were to complex, and detracted from the action, not added. the characterisation was poorly implemented at best, OP sounded like a grandad, Jazz was Black? BB cant talk? Ironhide just wants to kill everything that moves?; and the pacing/direction of the movie poor. I agree with many of the reviews i have read, its big bangs, and thats it.

the original movie is better for myself because the designs are slick, the characters established and very well portrayed, the direction is text book.
I didnt want the new movie to be a remake of the old, I like new things but i think they just screwed things up in the new film, some bits didnt work etc...
Im glad we have a new film, I will watch it a few times, and im hoping that all the critisism that the press and fans leveled at this movie will be addressed.
Perhaps, now that we have met the TF, it will be easier to cast them in thier roles.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:23 am

sigh.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:56 am

double sigh

Fat Phrank · Post by **Fat Phrank** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:24 am

Hello. I haven't posted here in a LONG time but I'm glad this forum and website still exists. Anyways, I really didn't think the new TransFormers movie was all that special. I would much rather watch Optimus transforming during "The Touch" than watch Michael Bay destroy something else. I'm not saying the movie was terrible, it just didn't have the special factor the original movie had. I guess I just miss the old stuff.

Fat Phrank · Post by **Fat Phrank** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:24 am

I double posted like an idiot. Sorry. Now I feel like transforming into a tape deck.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:11 pm

This has nothing to do with the new movie (which I liked... Megan Fox's midriff covers a lot of flaws) but why is it that reviewers picking on the old movie always say it's got "crappy, substandard animation?" I am amazed by the visual treats every time I watch it. As an animated film it's got great sight gags--the five-faced Quintessons, the Prime/Megs fight with all its overdramatized lighting, the transformation of Unicron--even the Junkions switching roles as rider and ridden.

Miyazaki gets a lot of praise for visuals when his movies are slow and full of plotholes--why would people give TF 86 the shaft?

Post by **Best First** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:21 pm

yeah i know, its just lazy journalism, the cartoon animation was average, yes, but the film is mind blowingly good.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:43 am

The animation, even by todays CG cell animation standards is bloody good, I cant think of many movies that are as detailed, and have such rich visual backdrops.
TF must be one of the hardest things to draw and animate due to all the lines of perspective etc.. the only animation ive ever seen that does giant robots aswell is some of the macross films, and more recently the new appleseed movie, but most of that is CG...

rusty_herring · Post by **rusty_herring** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:48 pm

TF must be one of the hardest things to draw

When I first started drawing them I thought, "eh... piece of cake, they're all blocky and defined." but omg.....
The 1986 film had fanastic animation no question, down to every little piece of Unicron that was animated or every part of each planet he devoured. Even over 20 years later it still stands against things that came well after it.

Post by **Kaylee** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:10 pm

I always think that considering all the problems the movie faced (remove one toyline, introduce another, problems with changing animation studios, script alterations etc.) it turned out pretty darn well for a kids film.

imo the reason so many reviewers are turned off of it is firstly it's not only a kid film but a boy's film, that it's definitely a product of its time that isn't really relevant to a current audience except for nostalgia purposes and that it's not particularly imaginative in terms of plot/character. I think we see through that since we watched it as kids and got into it and don't see it with a cynical adult's eyes...

For example, I've read in a couple of places words to the effect of "based on a toyline, not even a theme park ride!" as if that makes any difference to the film on its own merits?

Speaking of which, that's something that I just think of comparing the two movies- the old one didn't play up to the audience or try and tick boxes/hit demographics, it just had it's own direction and went with it. It had a purpose and a story, rather than a 'this is the type of person we want to attract let's make decisions XY and Z'. The new movie is trying (understandably) to throw bones to fans, include new viewers and also make a movie big and loud enough to draw attention.

(I'm actually a bit unwell so I'm not sure if anything I just wrote actually makes sense :S)

divebomb · Post by **divebomb** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:15 am

Nope it all made sense

The animation was top notch and seriously shows up flaws in the actual series a lot more (ep of series 3 anyone?!)

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:13 am

I think its streamline pictures who handled the TF:M animation, who also did many Mangas such as, the fist of the north star... ooo

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:15 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I think its streamline pictures who handled the TF:M animation, who also did many Mangas such as, the fist of the north star... ooo

AFAIK it changed, alot of scenes were animated very early whilst the script was being redrawn (Starscream's coronation and Unicron transforming) by a different studio- hence for example Starscream's very stylistic mecha hands during the coronation sequence.

They then changed houses and finished the movie elsewhere iirc.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:27 am

That would explain why some shots are more detailed than others. Is there any way of finding out who animated what?

Post by **Kaylee** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:27 am

sprunkner wrote:That would explain why some shots are more detailed than others. Is there any way of finding out who animated what?

Tricky... as I said some scenes were animated (and changed) early on, and used in the promotional trailer- including a different Matrix, extra shots of Unicron and more scenes of Autobot City transforming with Magnus in his orange-black Diaclone colours.

Then after script revisions most of the major animation was done, including most of what happens in the film, before extra final changes were added on the cheap at last minute (Prime punching Megs in the gut is noticably different in style and quality to the proceeding and preceeding scenes).

A good example of the sort of revision is from story consultant Flint Dille:

"In the next season (3), we were going to have all these new characters, and people are going to be wondering what happened to the old characters that they liked so much. What we knew, in a business sense, is that they had been discontinued, because they were the 1984/1985 (toy)line – but, we needed to tie them off. So, we had this one scene where the Autobots basically had to run through a gauntlet of Decepticons. Which basically wiped out the entire '84 product line in one massive "charge of the light brigade". So, whoever wasn't discontinued, stumbled to the end. That scene didn’t make it into the finished movie. But if you think kids were locking themselves in the bedroom over Optimus Prime, basically in that scene they would've seen their entire toy collection wiped out."

There are all the rumours of deleted scenes and stuff, imo they're rubbish. There's so much money to be made they would have been released by now- if scenes were originally removed and reanimated due to violent content they've either been destroyed or were never finished.

rusty_herring · Post by **rusty_herring** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:51 pm

I have a 2000 version of the TF movie on DvD (I think it's 2000) where it contains some storyboards for 'cut' scenes. (Little stuff, like Magnus in car mode carrying Tracks and Sideswipe going into battle) or an extended scene of the shuttle before the Decepticons enter it. But nothing special.

Personally, I'd like to think that when the Autobots realized Rodimus Prime was going to be their new leader, they packed into Omega Supreme and took off for greener pastures rather then died.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:05 pm

Id like to remake it and make it even more violent - the autobots take alot of casultys but the cons dont really suffer many - im pretty sure you could have had both sides killing, or wounding each other through out the film...
alas, never gonna happen unles I win the Euro lottery.

rusty_herring · Post by **rusty_herring** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:50 pm

Id like to remake it and make it even more violent - the autobots take alot of casultys but the cons dont really suffer many - im pretty sure you could have had both sides killing, or wounding each other through out the film...
alas, never gonna happen unles I win the Euro lottery.

Transfans exclusive comic! Like the 2004 ones you did guys. (it was 2004 right?)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:44 pm

rusty_herring wrote:
Id like to remake it and make it even more violent - the autobots take alot of casultys but the cons dont really suffer many - im pretty sure you could have had both sides killing, or wounding each other through out the film...
alas, never gonna happen unles I win the Euro lottery.
Transfans exclusive comic! Like the 2004 ones you did guys. (it was 2004 right?)

It feels like it was 2004, but it was 2005.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:20 am

I wish we could do one of those again, seems ppl are so busy nowadays.

Post by **Kaylee** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:36 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I wish we could do one of those again, seems ppl are so busy nowadays.

I'm happy to do a collab with anybody interested

I was thinking of doing something anyway, since I've got a scanner, photoshop and a nifty bit of software for putting together comics

Emvee still has the Last Issue of Molestrangler Ever (LIME) ™

rusty_herring · Post by **rusty_herring** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:53 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:
I wish we could do one of those again, seems ppl are so busy nowadays.

I'm happy to do a collab with anybody interested

I was thinking of doing something anyway, since I've got a scanner, photoshop and a nifty bit of software for putting together comics

Emvee still has the Last Issue of Molestrangler Ever (LIME) ™

Just let me know if you guys need help with anything, I'd be happy to help.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:02 pm

Karl Lynch wrote: "In the next season (3), we were going to have all these new characters, and people are going to be wondering what happened to the old characters that they liked so much. What we knew, in a business sense, is that they had been discontinued, because they were the 1984/1985 (toy)line – but, we needed to tie them off. So, we had this one scene where the Autobots basically had to run through a gauntlet of Decepticons. Which basically wiped out the entire '84 product line in one massive "charge of the light brigade". So, whoever wasn't discontinued, stumbled to the end. That scene didn’t make it into the finished movie. But if you think kids were locking themselves in the bedroom over Optimus Prime, basically in that scene they would've seen their entire toy collection wiped out."

Geez, I was pretty agitated over the deaths of Prowl, Ratchet, Prime (also Screamer too) seeing as they were my fav. characters in the comic... but seeing the entire 84-85 line killed off, that'd made me run out of the cinema crying (that is, if TF the Movie would have ever been aired in Hungary.. darn communism.)