Bayformers - the live action Movie's SPOILER(!!!) topic

[BB Shockwave]

Thanks for the honours!

Now, tis is a Spoiler topic, so if you came here not reading the topic's name... well too bad. But I'll put a spoiler space there just for the heck of it...

SPOILERS BELOW!!!

















Let's kick off, after saying so many bad things about the movie script, the things I liked in it:

-The TF language. I never really thought into this, never considered the TFs needed one.. but it's a good idea that they should communicate in their own language. Though, not with electric screams, ugh.

-Propably the only part I liked, when the Autobots arrive and introduce themselves. When Prime says "Our names are unpronouncable to you, but you can refer to us by codename", I was thinking "Whoa, 'Man of Iron'!" Of course I doubt Orci or the others read the first UK TF Comic ever, but it's cool nonetheless. Still, I wonder what Optimus Prime stands for as a codename... Jazz I can understand-

-Oh and the last tidbit I liked, the part where they mention all sort of Cybertronian references, like where Ironhide is from (southern Cybertron, I guess) or that BB lost his voice modul at the battle of Tyger Pax. (wasn't that in TWW vol.3?)

OK, so much for the good, now the bad. Lets start with the aforementioned voicebox... I dunno about you, this made me think the Pixar movie 'Robots' where one of the bots was looking for a working voicebox all over the movie. Silly. The idea of BB not being able to talk should be OK for a time, but he should have been repaired. Especially with the nano-regeneration...

-Which brings us to the whole protofromy-mercury man-Terminator 2 morphing stuff. When BB morphs into a newer camaro, I thought... then why the heck does he Transform into a robot, he could easily morph into one! (nice toy concept, Play-Doh TFs! ) Anyone else thinks this has no place in the TF mythos? I think regeneration is the advantage of organic beings, like 'trolls' (ok, fantasy beings). And it's one of the reasons, IMHO why TFs use Pretender shells (see Finback).

-Now about the humans and their subplots.. anyone else thinks the code-cracker girl and his friend could be left out completely, maybe let Simmons and his agents have crack the TF's language? They give no real revalance to the plot.

-And some minor points... the 'low blow' and campy jokes:

- farting dog (and anyone thinks MIles is worse then 'O' - and there was a reason we never saw 'O' again after 4 issues...)
-BB pissing on Simmons!!! I banged my desk when reading that part...
-Mikaela forcing Simmons to drop his trousers... childish and petty, plus when you're chased by the FBI or worse, do you want them to be REAL mad at you?
-Sam's chihaua (heck, a GUY having a chihaua? ) peeing on Ironhide
-The whole charade in the backyard. My friend Vector Prime said that after this point he wouldn't comment on the script anymore...

OK, enough points to discuss already... Gentlemen, let's take this script apart.

[Scraplet]

Nice one BB.

Agree with most of the 'good points'. The only one I can add is the ending, or rather the epilogue.

At least that final scene gives them a reason for being in disguise, and it actually leaves the film with a sense of its own continuity; a few autobots scatted throughtout the universe, Prime now calling them to earth, to regroup......

....but its still cheesy in the way so many bits of the script are.

I was eating my fist at several points:

the slapstick 'find the glasses in Sam Witwicky's room' scene
How many cliches can you jam into one section of script? Hmm, lets see;
-confused aliens tring to understand humans with hilarous consequences.
-The old 'hide the alien/moster/whatever' from the parents routine.
basically 'Short Circut', 'ET' and 'Gremlins' all spring to mind.
-laugh as the embarassed teenage boy has a girl rumaging abound his underpant-strewn bedroom

the 'save the energon cube with a football-star run by Sam' scene.
-complete with flashbacks to his school PE class OMG!!!

Bumblebee.
The whole 'speaking through his car radio' thing. My god! And his character (if you can say he has one) is only reminicent of the worst aspects of the Armarda 'toon minicons. At best he is Gizmo/ET with a gun.

And Skorponok? As far as I can tell the only reason for this whole section of script is to demonstrate that TFs are tough machines, but they can be harmed / killed by the best of US military tech. I can see why the military were keen to be involved in this part of the production.

The script is awful. The fake script that was 'leaked' in the early days was much better. And if you had lined them up, I would have picked this as the fake.

Ah well.......

Edit: How could I forget the Ipod and the X-box being brought to life by the power of the energon cube. Complete with arms and legs and everything....

[BB Shockwave]

OMG, yes, I forgot the IPOD too. Not only is it , you'know, unfeasible, unrealistic (something Bay said he wants to avoid, hence no mass-shifting). But, when Buster controlled Jetifre with the Matrix, Jetfire was already a transforming robot. Here, the cube re-designs a houshold appliance by 'magical means'.

Speaking of I-Pods... they crammed this one full of advertisments too, as I heard Bay movies ususally are. Let's see, this movie nets Bay nice sums from:

-Microsoft (transforming X-Box)
-Blizzard (Maggie's guy playing World of Warcraft)
-whoever produces I-Pod
-Yahoo
-the car companies the Bots transform into, especially Camaro
-the army...

And yeah, Scraplet, when I read the interview with the army colonel/whatever his rank was during the shooting, I instantly became worried that the army will be able to hurt the TFs. After all, this happened in Godzilla too... Depleted uranium? Bullets should bounce off TF armor. They could explain it's some unknown alloy, with incerdibly dense molecular structure. But depleted uranium... please, most TFs are totally immune to heat, we saw Magnus and Galvy (in the toon, most of the simply Cons too) survive a magma bath often enough.

By the way - Angelophile on TFW2005 (there is a script spoiler thread there too) said this is a revised script, there was another one before this, according to him they mostly rewrote the third act and it's 'better' now. I don't dare to imagine what it was like before...

Oh and what was that fake script, Scraplet?

[Kaylee]

I thought the script had some very good kernels of ideas, but they just weren't given enough intelligent thought to make them work.

I think it's already been established that Transformers don't have to turn into one thing, that they can alter their alternate mode. So they've taken that to the logical (?) conclusion that TFs can just scan something and turn into it, which also explains their rather biological looking robot forms. Now that's fine and I think there's mileage in that, but they need to come up with a reason why you can't just turn into anything.

I.e. Why scan something to turn into it? Surely you could just glance at it or imagine it?

Furthermore, you need some 'rules' to stop silly situations like:

Prime and Megsy fight. Megsy turns into a big gun to kill Prime. Prime turns into a big shield to deflect Megsy's gun. Megsy turns into a bigger gun, Prime turns into an even bigger gun etc. etc. ad infinitum. Or why can't Prime just transform into Megatron so they fight on equal terms?

Sort of like the T1000: it could only turn into objects of similar mass, and couldn't form chemicals or moving parts. OR you establish that the TFs can turn into the semblance of anything but actually needed 'surgery' for that alternate mode to do somehting, this costs them the ability to turn into things at will since they become hardwired to turn into that one thing. I.e. originally Prime could turn into the appearance of a truck and Megatron into a tank (for argument's sake) but for either of those alt modes to do anything beyond static disguises they need physical alteration internally.

The human stuff is so pedestrian it's unreal. Those elements need total rewriting imo- they make Spike and Sparkplug Witwicky look like bastions of original character design. Most of the human characters in the script still have the rought edges where they were cut out and glued in from other movies.

The Transformers actually need some personality. Most of the Decepticons have... nothing. Nothing whatsoever. Again, it makes Starscream from the cartoon look like a Shakespearian piece of character development. What are the individual Cons' motivations? What are their dreams? Their reasons for being bad guys? And we get nothing- not even the slightest inkling of who they are and why they do what they do- most of them might as well just be pure machines.

The Autobots are little better- Prime is given most characterisation and even he is just 'big hero who always does the right thing'. What's the point? Bumblebee reads like a loyal puppydog (especially since he can't speak... but can make virtually any statement through his stereo as long as it's in song form... you'd think he could just talk through it if he could do that). Ironhide and Jazz have next to nothing other than being 'good guys' and Ratchet might as well not be there.

Megatron is the biggest let down because they have so much room to develop him yet it never seems to go beyond "He was greedy. And turned evil. Did I mention he was evil?" Okay, great... WHY is he evil? What does he desire? What does he wants? Immortality? Power? The thrill of conquest? Peace through tyranny? Furthermore we never find out why he's on earth, why these seem to be the last Transformers left etc. His being Prime's brother is such a poorly used device to try and add some gravitas to his final fight with Prime it just makes you weep for the writers of 'the girl who loved powerglide' to take over.

His death is also pretty poorly thought out- Prime et al know he's almost invincible through consuming sparks (so the question begs itself how do the Autobots beat the other assembled Decepticons, who are more numerous, with him leading them) so why not throw the Energon cube at him from the start, as Prime seems aware it's the only thing that will kill him. It smacks of such contrivance.

They also need to decide how 'invulnerable' the Transformers are. Okay, so Soundwave/Frenzy is a small one, but he should be made of the same armour so if a chainsaw or a shotgun hurts him then how can the others stand up to artillery fire?

The Energon Cube business is absolutely rotten. They've essentially replaced the Creation Matrix (honest to God the only reason I can possibly think of for renaming it is some marketting guy suggested it to avoid upsetting the devoutly religious or something). But there's no reason for the substitution- Creation Matrix would make more sense to everybody, it sounds like something that imbues life. Energon cube sounds like... a cube made of Energon.

The character designs make a lot more sense now that I understand where they're going with the Transforming, that's fine, but it needs far more thought behind it to stop it becoming a silly plot device.

The glasses thing worked well for me when I understood exactly how it comes about- however that's all tied in to Megatron. Why did he have an exact location of the cube (which was burned into the glasses) and somehow not find it and instead becoming frozen? How did he manage to get frozen in the arctic? Why did he go into stasis? etc. None of which is explored, and since he dies at the end isn't likely to either.

Some of the pop culture references (iPod, Ebay) are just painful. They're like some of Russel Davis' lines in the new Doctor Who, they just reek of "Look at all these references to real life I know! How classy am I?"

I disagree with their decision to have these few characters as the last remaining Transformers. So much for a grand scale war, virtually the entire civilisation has been wiped out off-screen. Furthermore they wind up killing every con except Screamer. I'm not sensing a lot of room for (sensible) sequels.

Some of the scenes are just painful: Bumblebee urinating on the FBI/CIA guys was shamefully bad.

There are some good ideas going on, but none of them seem thought through properly. Sadly everything in the script correlates exactly with everything we've seen so far, so I don't think it's going to have been changed a huge amount except for some dialog alterations and tweaking of scenes.

As I said in the news forum, I think the studio are playing very cleverly to their exact target audience- the average joe cinema goer who wants a dumb action flick and the average dumb transformer fan who watched some of the cartoon as a kid and wants a movie where his favourite characters wail on each other. Shame really, as there are so many opportunities missed.

That and I get such a cold, soulless vibe from the script... I think the movie might actually turn me off of Transformers or at least sour my enjoyment of them. Then again, many seem to be enthused by it and think its a fabulous direction to go in... long as they're happy I suppose.

[Scraplet]

Karl, I agree with all your points, and I think you've pretty much summed up what every real TF fan will feel if the movie turns out as in this script. And you have identifed all the plot holes nicely. I commend your eloquence (sp?)!

It is the distain with which the characters are treated that really sadens me. Prime is the only one who's character is developed , but he is still a two-dimentional John Wayne clone (Which reminds me of another eat-your-fist-moment. Ratchet: "Prime, can you bring yourself to kill your brother?". Optimus Wayne: "I'll do what I must! Autobots roll out" )

Ironhide is given just enough lines to paint him as a trigger-happy immoral nut, but nothing else. And I can't believe that Jazz is nothing more than clumsy cannon-fodder.

Karl adequatly nailed all the problems with Bumblebee. And ratchet is wallpaper.

I found it sad that the best way the scripwriter could introduce most of the Decepticons was simply to call them in as at the end, with no prior introduction. Bring out the Cannon Fodder!!! Lazy. Where the hell had they been all this time? Were did they come from??

And Megatron is not even good enough to call a generic bad-guy. He has less backstory or motivation than Unicron in TF:TM. Hell, he's got less motivation than a Scooby-doo villan! And did I miss the point where they explained how/why he was on earth, how he ended up in the ice?

I get such a cold, soulless vibe from the script... I think the movie might actually turn me off of Transformers or at least sour my enjoyment of them.

I know what you mean. I REALLY hope that comic continuities are not suffocated by (or forced to adopt) the movie continuity. If the money is spinning and Hasbro want a movie-continuity-comic, and it sells much better than our stuff.......I'm scared now!!!

Oh and what was that fake script, Scraplet?

Early days of the Murphy board....a script was doing the rounds. I don't think many people had seen it (I hadn't) until Murphy started badmouthing it and declaring it fake. It was actually quite good, as I remember. Started on Cybertron at a time where there was no war but the Decpts were getting ready for something. Prime was trying to get the council of Elders (or whatever) to listen to his concerns - no-one believed him. It was so good that I can't remeber how it went after that....

I'll have to see if I can find it

[Kaylee]

Personally the more I think about it the more I think the Japanese possibly have the best attitude to Transformers- they don't take it too seriously, they're not afraid to do casual tongue-in-cheek things with the franchise and above all they work hardest to actually make the series colourful and full of character.

They understand in the end its the Transformers who are the stars, and they must all have personalities and be full of interest or else they just won't sell (literally).

Possibly the worst TF media is Car Robots- but even that is full of colour, life and character. Granted it's also rather silly and kitsche, but it's meant to be. It's never in any danger of trying to be so dark and dramatic and action packed that it disappears up its own backside.

I'd happily take any campy silliness the Japanese wing of the Transformer media empire can come up with over what feels to me like such a soulless, dour and black-and-white retelling of something not really worth retelling, with a few high-school level gags thrown in to keep the kid interest.

I sincerely hope this script is wrong, that it's a complete phoney. Sadly that looks increasingly unlikely. Too much correlates for it to be wrong.

imo the Transformers are meant to be a sort of childish comic-book dream, full of great stories and heroes and villains, not like this headbanger not-clever-enough-to-be-Aliens/Terminator 2-but-going-to-try-anyway soullessness.

I think it's quite sad really, that this is the most interest the franchise will get since its inception all those years ago.

Maybe I'll write out a prototype script of how I'd do it, see if it reads any better

[Impactor returns 2.0]

well done Karl for summing up - Im now more depressed then I was before.

This should be posted on Dons board so he can understand why hes so ******* stupid.

[bludgeon2005]

Hey all,

Long time lurker, first time poster here. Any chance anyone who has a copy of the script could email me it? I've been looking around the interweb for it and I'm kinda intrigued to see how bad it is...

[spiderfrommars]

Welcome to the site, Master of Metallikato.

[The Last Autobot]

I really dont care if the movie is a failure or total crap. It wont change a bit how I feel about Tfs. In the worst case scenario it will show us how "the real fans" will act and who will give up.

22 years of Tfs wont fade away because of a mediocre director or a fat self serving slag.

[bludgeon2005]

Finally read this thing this morning. I think I agree with Karl's comment that the script does contain good ideas, it just doesn't develop them. In fact I actually like much of the first half or so of the film. The script seems really rushed toward the end though, with the Decepticons just showing up from no where to get killed. And some of the human characters seemed completely superfluous.

Likes:

- Sam, Bumblebee, Mikaela storyline. It's kinda cute, and the story seems to move along fairly logically with the glasses McGuffin giving the Transformers a reason to involve him. The love story is a necessary evil of a summer blockbuster and at least Mikaelas history of GTA gives her a bit more depth and use beyond being a Mary Jane clone. Also reminiscent of both the cartoon and comic versions of the Witwickeys

- Sector 7. A complete rip of the Area 51 scenes in Independence Day, but at least it's a realistic view of the governments mistrust of all Transformers rather than being their best friends like the cartoon.

- Frenzy, Barricade and Black Out. I think the Frenzy character is a pretty good update of the original cassette spy characters, using his small size and alt mode in the course of his infiltration mission. And even if he gets killed pretty easily in the end, and least he got to take out a couple of fleshlings first.

Barricade and Black Out are basically new characters, if named after fairly obscure MicroMasters. Not having a G1 character to compare them too probably helps. The scene with Black Out attacking the army base in Iraq sounds pretty cool. I really like the Barricade character, the Police car alt mode and his role as hunter/seeker gives in a kind of T-1000 vibe.

Optimus Prime- He's not particularly well fleshed out, but he is Prime.

Dislikes.

- The rest of the Decepticons. They have no motivation and no characterisation. They show up, fight and die. Particularly Megatron. The arch Nemesis of the Autobots/the galaxy in general and all he does is shows up, fights a bit , cackles a bit and dies. Weak.

- The Autobots' lack of screentime and characterisation. They show up, introduce themselves, shoot a bit and Jazz dies.

- Superflous human characters. I don't see the point in the codebreaker characters or the army charcters (Lennox and Figueroa). The codebreakers are vaguely cute, but does the film really need two geeky romance subplots? And the army guys are just walking cliches, Figueroa was surely marked for death the moment he started talking bout what he was doing when he got home.

- The humans relative ease in defeating the decepticons. It makes the Autobots seem rather irrelevant. I was looking forward to the Decepticons being able to take on whole armies single handedly with only other Transformers being able to match them in strength.

- Bumblebee's voice box and his change in alt mode. I thought the talking through the radio thing was cute for a while, but I fail to see why Bumblebee's voice box can't be repaired if he can reattach his legs so easily. The rescan of the alt mode seemed a bit daft for the reasons Karl mentioned above. Surely in the final battle the autobots should all have scanned Brawl and turned into tanks or something. I thought he was going to get trashed by Barricade and rebuilt Goldbug style.

- The Energon Cube. I understand why they changed the name of the matrix, but having the Transformers on a Galaxy-wide quest to recover an Energon cube is like having Indiana Jones on a race against time with the Nazis to find a Happy Meal or a case of Bud instead of the Holy Grail.

Overall it's more or less what I expected. A missed opportunity for sure. The references to Sparks and various Cybertronian locations imply the writers have examined bits and pieces of Transformers media. However this just makes the whole thing more frustrating.

[BB Shockwave]

I really dont care if the movie is a failure or total crap. It wont change a bit how I feel about Tfs. In the worst case scenario it will show us how "the real fans" will act and who will give up.

22 years of Tfs wont fade away because of a mediocre director or a fat self serving slag.

As a friend of mine told me lately... remember how the Hulk movie turned out? Utter failure...

Now, they're doing another Hulk movie... about 3-4 years later. Maybe we can hope the same will happen to Transformers, and this time a better director - one who reads into the source material, ergo comics - will do the job.

One can but hope, however slim the chance is.

[ULTIMUS CONVOY]

Scene for scene in CG and live action. Now I reckon that WOULD be awesome!!!!!