Odd Question

Neo Challenger · Post by **Neo Challenger** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:23 pm

Looking for comments and thoughts on this question. It's something that's bugged me for a while lately, especially as I work on reviving my TF fanfic (said fanfic still being mostly in my noodle, but that's another topic..): why do I have a hard time accepting the idea of 'gods' in Transformers, namely Primus as the Transformers creator? The concept of gods in Warhammer 40K doesn't faze me at all, nor does mutants/psychics/etc. in the Judge Dredd universe. But Primus and Unicron as gods? Early versions of my fic have Primus as either a scientist or a group of scientists that create transforming piloted war machines, while Unicron is a sentient computer virus that commandeers a warworld.

Anyway, let me know what y'all think. Oh, and if this topic's in the wrong spot, move it and LMK where it made off too, thankyaveramuch, uh huh.

Post by **Denyer** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:50 pm

Neither seem particularly godlike, especially in the US stories. They're just larger, older and more advanced alien entities along the lines of the Transformers themselves. They're also incarnate in the form of robots, which we're not exactly inclined to view as mystical.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:01 pm

Primus is the 'last of the Light Gods', so we can assume he belonged to a group of powerful immortal alien beings who wanted to keep the universe dafe and in order. Think the Guardians of the Universe in DC.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:59 am

I see them as 'very powerful beings', not Gods. The term 'god' has been used by those in question, but we have enough evidence in print to know that both Unicron and Primus did have an inflated opinion of themselves.

They are worsipped as Gods, yes.

We never saw any of the other Light Gods. It would be interesting to know more about this superior race.

I prefer it to the Quintesson theory though. I mean, who built them?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:45 pm

I love this! We're discussing the existance of gods in FICTION now!

That said, Primus and Unicron are clearly Gods. They're not like the Christian God, of course. They're more like the Norse or Roman gods. Those gods are not so much "all knowing/all powerful/all creamy/whatever, but just immensely powerful beings usually resembling those who call them Gods.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:53 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Those gods are not so much "all knowing/all powerful/all creamy/whatever, but just immensely powerful beings usually resembling those who call them Gods.

Yup, and as such, i don't have a problem with them being labelled as Gods (esp Primus as he was after all, the creator of the Transformers and as such was their 'God'). Unicron, as the antithesis of Primus kind of inherits his godhood by proxy (and wasn't he labeled as a Demi-God earlier on in the series?)

Post by **Best First** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:54 pm

is thsi where the TF mythos gets co-opted by the Christian Right as supporting Intelligent Design?

The Norse, or even Greek or Roman, analogy is a good one, the term God shouldn't be considered in a just the monothiest context a lot of us are used to.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:33 pm

How does the Light Gods of Unicron's version square with the created specifically as a defence against Unicron in Primus's version?

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:51 pm

Furman's said he was thinking along Roman/Greek pantheon lines, so it seems he started off with that in Marvel UK and decided to simplify to a post-early-Hebrew dualism when he got over to the US.

Personally I go with the theory that Primus is delusional, and Unicron possibly just as much. It's more interesting than the Marvel/DC guff the author decided to stick with for the Ultimate Guide, with the One and the brothers.

Professor Smooth wrote:I love this! We're discussing the existance of gods in FICTION now!

Well, traditionally the term "god amongst men" was more than a euphemism -- throughout recorded history the tendency has been for people to claim status of prophet or divine incarnation, with roots in leaders and folk heroes being depicted as larger in stature or living for great periods of time.

Primus being an earlier and genitive member of the race, whilst being susceptible to trickery, is entirely in keeping with traditional creation stories.

Neo Challenger · Post by **Neo Challenger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:30 am

Thanks for the input, y'all. It seems that Primus and Unicron would be more aptly described as "god-like", more along the lines of uber-advanced alien beings.. kinda like Q or the Bajoran Prophets in Trek. These particular beings just happened to incarnate in giant robots and, in the case of Primus, spawn littler (but still relatively giant) robots, which kind of begs the question was Primus afraid of Unicron?

And Denyer, elaborate on your comment of Primus being delusional. Do you mean that he fell for the hype and styled himself a god?

Post by **Denyer** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:42 am

Neo Challenger wrote:These particular beings just happened to incarnate in giant robots

I get the impression they try not to incarnate at all -- Primus tricked Unicron into an asteroid at the cost of being trapped in another asteroid himself.

Re: Primus as delusional, it's in reference to an extended fan continuity backed up by the UK comics... the concept they came up with was Primus being a sentient artifact / AI left by a sublimed civilisation (a concept borrowed from Iain Banks.) Basically, Primus and Unicron believe their own hype -- believe themselves to be mystical beings from the dawn of the universe, etc.

I'm not sure Primus was afraid of Unicron winning -- it was easy enough to detonate him, in the end -- but I think he created Transformers to attempt a game plan that wouldn't result in his own death. If Unicron could be defeated by destroying his physical body, it's possible Primus could have indefinitely imprisoned the chaos bringer without having to sacrifice himself to cancel the other out.

(The confrontation with Unicron in the US comics doesn't in any way link up with the confrontation in the UK version of the movie / Legacy of Unicron, without some severe retconning.)

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:52 am

Denyer wrote:(The confrontation with Unicron in the US comics doesn't in any way link up with the confrontation in the UK version of the movie / Legacy of Unicron, without some severe retconning.)

Damn straight... The US Confrontation is in Timeline C whereas the Movie one occurs in Timeline A and the UK one occurs in Timeline B.

Neo Challenger · Post by **Neo Challenger** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:17 pm

[quote="Denyer"]Re: Primus as delusional, it's in reference to an extended fan continuity backed up by the UK comics... the concept they came up with was Primus being a sentient artifact / AI left by a sublimed civilisation (a concept borrowed from Iain Banks.) Basically, Primus and Unicron believe their own hype -- believe themselves to be mystical beings from the dawn of the universe, etc.[quote]

Rogue AIs, huh? That works too; it's a fairly common sci-fi tool, but it certainly fits with the Transformers stories. And as mentioned, one of my ideas had Unicron as a sentient computer virus. Hmm, super-advanced alien beings or rogue AIs...