Earthforce

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:25 pm

Just bought the manga-style trade. Some questions: okay, actually just one:

When the heck does this take place? Prime is a Powermaster, but Megs is alive and leading Decepticons on Earth.

Unfortunately, I ordered the trades for Aspects of Evil, Fallen Star, Way of the Warrior, and Earthforce all at once, but only Aspects and Earthforce have arrived so far. I'm actually a bit unimpressed. Though I enjoy the cheapness, some of the art suffers from having been shrunk down. Plus, it would have been nice to see this stuff get colored. Having bought a few of the original UK issues in London (thanks, Emvee) and read "Double Deal of the Century" in its black and white glory, I speak with some authority.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:31 pm

Earthforce takes place in its own continuity which is spun off a bit from regular UK continuity. It would have tied in with everything else but towards the end Furman was having trouble linking threads. There's a diagram somewhere that explains all this...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:32 pm

sprunkner wrote:When the heck does this take place? Prime is a Powermaster, but Megs is alive and leading Decepticons on Earth.

gah! one of the forbidden questions!! my eyes! they're bleeding!!!

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:36 pm

Some of the black and white stories fit continuity fine, its mainly the latter half that seem to forge ahead without a care.

There's various theories as to where the stories take place, from after G2, to between G1 and G2, to an alternate past continuity (there's many opportunities for this with all the time travelling that went on).

Personally I think between Time Wars and the Underbase saga works, but there ya go.

I think there's some great art there. Surely you enjoyed Geoff Senior? Simon Coleby? Lee Sullivan?

Some of the b&w tales I'd place amongst the best. Deathbringer, Demons, Flashback and especially the Carnivac saga.

But I would like to see a company like IDW go in and colour the stories. Or is that blasphemy? The campaign to colour Citizen Cane starts now!

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:40 pm

That's a good idea, particularly with IDW talking about reprinting the old stuff...

That's the problem with these trades. The art is much better than most of the color trades, 'cept Time Wars and all the Senior stuff, but it's all shrunk down!

The Prime Targets book has a theory on when Earthforce takes place... now if I could just find it.

[edit] Found it... here's the theory, in summary:

Earthforce must take place after the end of the US series (even though Prime is drawn as a Powermaster...) because Prime is worried about Unicron returning, it is Bumblebee, not Goldbug, and "Rhythms of Darkness" Galvatron shows up. These are their explanations 1) The classic Autobots must have awakened twice, once in "The Void," then Galvatron awakens them again in "Perchance to Dream," so possible they went back into stasis from some Nucleon-side-effect for a while. 2) Bludgeon survived his dismemeberment in "Another Time and Place" since, obviously, he shows up in G2. Their theory is: he vacated his Pretender shell and rebuilt it later. 3) The Survivors must have left Earth for a time, but returned to fight the new Mayhem Squad. 4) The Autobots must have repaired the Ark, used it as a base again, and then Megatron got it back in time for G2.

Holy crap. Having not read all the original stories, I cannot comment on the accuracy. I will say that it's a lot of "must haves" and a better explanation is that Furman thought it would never matter.

If Simon is lurking, this is his time to explain himself once and for all...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:42 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:There's various theories as to where the stories take place, from after G2, to between G1 and G2, to an alternate past continuity (there's many opportunities for this with all the time travelling that went on).

I suppose they could be squeezed into Timeline B, or it might just be safer for them to be in a timeline divergant from Timeline C at a point somewhere after Primal Scream...

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:20 pm

My personal theory is that it's an divergent timeline which diverges at the point Unicron snatches the Rhythms of Darkness Galvatron.

In the post-Time Wars future stories, we see that Rodimus and co ended up in a future not unlike the Rhythms of Darkness one. And the Galvatron we see in Perchance to Dream (which is where the Earthforce stories start) is clearly familiar with time travel and alternative universes. Now, suppose that Unicron picked this Galvatron as his agent rather than the Rhythms of Darkness one. What if - instead of travelling to Cybertron to awaken Primus - he travelled to Earth to recruit some Autobots to his cause. He arrives whilst the Autobots have surrendered. Instead of the Scorpy-Shockers-Autobot battle being interrupted when Primus teleports them to Cybertron, it is interrupted by the arrival of the Nucleoned dinobots (see Two Steps Back). Of course, that still leaves the question of where Earthforce Megatron came from (maybe Straxatron somehow survived).

Alternatively, you can do some retconning to fit it in the middle of Matrix Quest or or between G1 and G2 or after G2 or between Time Wars and Underbase (I never considered that possibility before. You have to retcon away Prime's reference to Unicron, and ignore the story Flashback where Prowl and Megatron both go back in time to the final part of Underbase, but otherwise it makes a lot of sence) or some other placement of your choice.

Post by **Denyer** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:42 pm

sprunkner wrote:If Simon is lurking, this is his time to explain himself once and for all...

http://www.transfans.net/interviews_furman.php

The simplest way of reading is that Earthforce leads up to a parallel universe confrontation with Unicron, with some similarities but many differences. This universe also includes events in "Another Time and Place" from the last Marvel UK annual, "The Magnificent Six", etc.

(Having just looked, this site has some major gaps in its Annuals chronology, doesn't it?)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:56 pm

I prefer the 3 Galvatrons theory, myself.

The fact that it happens to have been generated by me is besides the point.

Given that travelling backwards in time can generate divergences, the first divergence occurs when Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge jump back in Target:2006. All time travel from that point on to Time Wars is then between these two timelines, however, the 'original' timeline ceases to exist following the conclusion and Rodimus & co are returned to the new future.

At some point, probably following the events of Aspects of Evil: Unicron, the Galvatron of that future travels back into the past, creating timeline #3, where he ressurects several Autobots, but his plan backfires and he ends up their prisoner. His original timeline continues without him, with a Unicron-possessed Rodimus Prime growing ever-weaker.

#3 is the Earthforce timeline, where a meddling Megatron manages to create yet another divergence in Flashback, subtlely changing events with the Seacons' (and Prowl's) delayed demise.

#4 is the Rhythms of Darkness timeline, where Unicron dispatches his three agents to acquire the future Galvatron (Galvy 3 to me, Galvy II to everyone else). As travelling forward doesn't necessarily create a divergence, they travel to this timeline's direct future, where Unicron has been successful with regards Cybertron. When they return with Galvatron, however, they are travelling backwards, and so create a divergence, #5.

With this 5th timeline, Galvatron's presence upsets things to such an extent that Unicron fails to repeat his alternate success, leading to G2.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:01 pm

My version has a flowchart as well. It can be found

here

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:21 pm

Bouncelot wrote:My version has a flowchart as well. It can be found

here

Nice work.

But, you've got a blank decision ellipse, how does which Galvatron Unicron snatches get determined, and what happens to the Legacy of Unicron Cyclonus and Scourge if Target: 2006 doesn't happen?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:05 am

Rebis wrote:I prefer the 3 Galvatrons theory, myself.

Or the 3 Megatron theory?

Because if Earthforce happened during Matrix Quest, there must have been a second Straxus clone knocking about.

Cool.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:26 am

We all try as we might, there is simply no way to fit Earthforce into normal US/Uk continuity. The stories could be retconned, of course, with minor changes that'd make them fit... but as they are right now, there are too many difficulties, so why bother?

Of course, trying to fit them into continuity is fun.

My personal idea is that with some minor changes, the stories can be rewritten to take place after the G1 comic ends - everyone is alive as an Action master, Prime stays on Cybertron to reunite the factions, while Grimlock and Prowl try to contain the various Con factions on Earth.

Of course, some B&W stories can fit in quite right into normal continuity, even the first part of the Carnivac saga. It's after Perchance to dream that things go wild...

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:35 pm

Rebis wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:My version has a flowchart as well. It can be found

here
Nice work.

But, you've got a blank decision ellipse, how does which Galvatron Unicron snatches get determined, and what happens to the Legacy of Unicron Cyclonus and Scourge if Target: 2006 doesn't happen?

The blank ellipse is because I'm pretty sure there's a divergence but I don't know what causes it.

I think the Rhythms of Darkness timeline was split into two when Rodimus Prime and co arrived back in the future after Time Wars. Unicron was unaware of the divergence, reached into the Rhythms timeline, and the present-day timeline split in two as a result.

Not sure about the fate of Cyclonus and Scourge if T2006 doesn't happen. I've got this idea that two timelines get anchored together by the normal timejump process (hence why the same amount of time passes for Rodimus as it does for Galvatron). So maybe they only arrive in the past of the Target 2006 timeline and not their own past. They probably try to ensure that their impact on history is quite small.

Alternatively, when they discover that they're not in the same past as Galvatron (i.e. after getting to Earth) they do something that creates another timeline which we don't see, and so there are three or four timelines running at that point.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:05 pm

Bouncelot wrote:Not sure about the fate of Cyclonus and Scourge if T2006 doesn't happen. I've got this idea that two timelines get anchored together by the normal timejump process (hence why the same amount of time passes for Rodimus as it does for Galvatron). So maybe they only arrive in the past of the Target 2006 timeline and not their own past. They probably try to ensure that their impact on history is quite small.

Alternatively, when they discover that they're not in the same past as Galvatron (i.e. after getting to Earth) they do something that creates another timeline which we don't see, and so there are three or four timelines running at that point.

You know, all this headaching can be avoided by having them arrive on Cybertron to be in the service of Scorponok after Target:2006 begins. There can be enough time between Target:2006 and Ring of Hate for this to work.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:06 pm

Rebis wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:Not sure about the fate of Cyclonus and Scourge if T2006 doesn't happen. I've got this idea that two timelines get anchored together by the normal timejump process (hence why the same amount of time passes for Rodimus as it does for Galvatron). So maybe they only arrive in the past of the Target 2006 timeline and not their own past. They probably try to ensure that their impact on history is quite small.

Alternatively, when they discover that they're not in the same past as Galvatron (i.e. after getting to Earth) they do something that creates another timeline which we don't see, and so there are three or four timelines running at that point.
You know, all this headaching can be avoided by having them arrive on Cybertron to be in the service of Scorponok after Target:2006 begins. There can be enough time between Target:2006 and Ring of Hate for this to work.

It's not the impression I got from that panel in Legacy of Unicron, but I just checked it again, and there's no reason why it couldn't be after T2006. Looks like i'll have to redo my diagram.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:55 am

Oh i wish i still had that post i made on the old board about these timelines... that was a head-popping classic... :-/
so i'm gonna have to go with trying to remember what i'd come up with

Timeline A - aka "The Movie Timeline"
This features no time travel what-so-ever. The "movie" events occur as does "Operation:Volcano"

Timeline B - aka "T:2006"
Diverges from Timeline A when Galvatron travels back from 2006 (Target:2006). "Prey" now happens which in turn leads to Straxatron being created. The "movie" events occur but it is Straxatron that becomes Galvatron. Legacy of Unicron throws Cyc&Scourge back to Scorpy.

Timeline C - aka "TimeWars"
Diverges from Timeline B when Galvatron travels back from 2007 (Fallen Angel) and events build up to the events in TimeWars. The "movie" no longer occurs however Primal Scream/Edge of Destruction now do. Galvatron II is plucked from an unspecified parallel future by Unicron.

Timeline D - aka "Earthforce"
Diverges from Timeline C when Galvatron III jumps back from unspecified/alternative future to the Ark and tries brainwashing Autobots at a point shortly after Timewars/Underbase saga. This leads to the Earthforce arc replacing the established US continuinty. It is possible that an alternative version of the nuclean/unicron arc unfolds, but that it remains unseen. "Another Time, Another Place" occurs in this timeline.

I think that's right... let me know if i've missed out anything vital...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:11 pm

And that puts G2 in Timeline C?

Hmmm, great post mate.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:37 pm

Yup G2 should fit into Timeline C (which is the "main" timeline), we just have to accept they cured the the Nucleon problem between G1 and G2 somewhere other than "Another Time, Another Place" (which isn't a bad idea anyway imho).

There is the problem of where the post Timewars future stories sit however, The Galvatron/Unicron parts of Aspects of Evil and the Dark Rodimus trilogy...
Initially i would say that after Timewars Roddy and co are returned to 2008 in Timeline B (with a Galvatron that didn't go off to create timeline C) this however means that Legacy of Unicron must happen differently (it must still happen becuase Roddy still has Unicron in the Matrix). This could mean that Timeline E diverges from Timeline B in 2007... an infact it could (in theory) then be this Galvatron that then travels back in time and creates Timeline D!!

Rythmes of Darkness is an entirely different timeline, one that somehow diverges from Timeline A at somepoint before/around 2005...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:48 pm

Could Rhythms of Darkness and Dark Rodimus not somehow be the same timeline? We know Furman got his year's mixed up for a start.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:24 pm

nah, in Ryhthems Uni destroys Cybetron, in Dark Roddy land Uni has been killed and is in the 'rix.

Legions bizzle works best for me.

well, almost as good as not really caring, that also works.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:11 pm

Best First wrote:Legions bizzle works best for me.

yay! the BF seal of approval!

Best First wrote:well, almost as good as not really caring, that also works.

wha?! how could you possible not care about the timelines?!! they're timelines! they're vital to the whole TF mythos! essential to the whole franchise... umm...

ok, point taken.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:18 pm

Best First wrote:nah, in Ryhthems Uni destroys Cybetron, in Dark Roddy land Uni has been killed and is in the 'rix.

Couldn't he have got out?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:24 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
Best First wrote:nah, in Ryhthems Uni destroys Cybetron, in Dark Roddy land Uni has been killed and is in the 'rix.
Couldn't he have got out?

You mean like he did in Aspects of Evil: Unicron?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:33 pm

Rebis wrote:
spiderfrommars wrote:
Best First wrote:nah, in Ryhthems Uni destroys Cybetron, in Dark Roddy land Uni has been killed and is in the 'rix.
Couldn't he have got out?
You mean like he did in Aspects of Evil: Unicron?

Whilst it is possible, it's implied (at least in my mind) that unicron destroyed cybertron in his first assualt, and the autobots have been fighting a losing battle ever since...
i guess it is possible to assume that Unicron escaped the Matrix again, but there is no evidence to support this, so i'm leaving it open to personal tastes. In my mind, it's a totally different timeline tho.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:05 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Rebis wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:Not sure about the fate of Cyclonus and Scourge if T2006 doesn't happen. I've got this idea that two timelines get anchored together by the normal timejump process (hence why the same amount of time passes for Rodimus as it does for Galvatron). So maybe they only arrive in the past of the Target 2006 timeline and not their own past. They probably try to ensure that their impact on history is quite small.

Alternatively, when they discover that they're not in the same past as Galvatron (i.e. after getting to Earth) they do something that creates another timeline which we don't see, and so there are three or four timelines running at that point.
You know, all this headaching can be avoided by having them arrive on Cybertron to be in the service of Scorponok after Target:2006 begins. There can be enough time between Target:2006 and Ring of Hate for this to work.
It's not the impression I got from that panel in Legacy of Unicron, but I just checked it again, and there's no reason why it couldn't be after T2006. Looks like i'll have to redo my diagram.

Just realised why I thought it had to be before. Neither Mzx's nor Scorpy's factions believe Prime etc. survived the crash of the Ark, and yet they clearly have communication with groups from across Cybertron (Scorpy's taking victims to the Smelting Pool, Max recruits TFs from across Cybertron to travel to Nebulos).

Legion wrote:Rythmes of Darkness is an entirely different timeline, one that somehow diverges from Timeline A at somepoint before/around 2005...

Rhythms of Darkness diverges from whichever timeline you put Primal Scream in because Unicron considers it one of his possible futures - so it's definitely on course to happen by that point.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:31 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:
Rebis wrote: You know, all this headaching can be avoided by having them arrive on Cybertron to be in the service of Scorponok after Target:2006 begins. There can be enough time between Target:2006 and Ring of Hate for this to work.
It's not the impression I got from that panel in Legacy of Unicron, but I just checked it again, and there's no reason why it couldn't be after T2006. Looks like i'll have to redo my diagram.
Just realised why I thought it had to be before. Neither Mzx's nor Scorpy's factions believe Prime etc. survived the crash of the Ark, and yet they clearly have communication with groups from across Cybertron (Scorpy's taking victims to the Smelting Pool, Max recruits TFs from across Cybertron to travel to Nebulos).

The way I saw it, at the time of The Bridge to Nowhere, only Straxus (and a select few Decepticons) and Perceptor's cell knew of the earthbound Transformers, but as Perceptor's cell either died or went to Earth, the only way that Xaaron's cell knew was through infiltration. This info was probably a closely guarded secret amongst the Autobots, but the Decepticons probably didn't care, so while Max didn't know, Scorpy probably knew but didn't care.

Or possibly there's more than one Smelting Pool and Max's recruitment campaign wasn't as global as it first appeared?

Maybe even with the knowledge of Prime's survival, Max was too disenchanted to continue, or maybe Cybertron learnt of Prime's death and many of their hopes were dashed by this?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:53 am

Bouncelot wrote:
Legion wrote:Rythmes of Darkness is an entirely different timeline, one that somehow diverges from Timeline A at somepoint before/around 2005...
Rhythms of Darkness diverges from whichever timeline you put Primal Scream in because Unicron considers it one of his possible futures - so it's definitely on course to happen by that point.

Hmmm, bugger! that raises a few ackward points. Firstly, unless Unicron holds off on attacking Cyb for a few years (maybe if he hadn't have plucked Galv from the future, he would have held off on his attack...) and also as things were progressing it was looking unlikely for any of the "movie" events to occur, which means he wouldn't have created Galvatron/Cyc/Scourge... it clear from GalvatronII's memories (when he confronts Megatron) that he was indeed created in 2005 so it's definitely a version of the "movie" timeline... but maybe not the very original one...

of course, we could just take it to mean that "one of my possible futures" could include a timeline that was once one of his futures, but no longer is. in a way that would make sense for him to pluck a Galvatron from a timeline that that Unicron himself would no longer be part of, otherwise he would be stealing a useful resource from himself... much better to steal it from somewhere that later down the road you won't miss...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Legion wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:
Legion wrote:Rythmes of Darkness is an entirely different timeline, one that somehow diverges from Timeline A at somepoint before/around 2005...
Rhythms of Darkness diverges from whichever timeline you put Primal Scream in because Unicron considers it one of his possible futures - so it's definitely on course to happen by that point.
Hmmm, bugger! that raises a few ackward points. Firstly, unless Unicron holds off on attacking Cyb for a few years (maybe if he hadn't have plucked Galv from the future, he would have held off on his attack...) and also as things were progressing it was looking unlikely for any of the "movie" events to occur, which means he wouldn't have created Galvatron/Cyc/Scourge... it clear from GalvatronII's memories (when he confronts Megatron) that he was indeed created in 2005 so it's definitely a version of the "movie" timeline... but maybe not the very original one...

Maybe, due to a lack of GalvatronII, the Rhythms of Darkness timeline and the 'movie' timeline just converge to parallelism in the intervening 15 years or so?

of course, we could just take it to mean that "one of my possible futures" could include a timeline that was once one of his futures, but no longer is. in a way that would make sense for him to pluck a Galvatron from a timeline that that Unicron himself would no longer be part of, otherwise he would be stealing a useful resource from himself... much better to steal it from somewhere that later down the road you won't miss...

So, now you're saying that either Furman didn't think his Unicron narrative/monologue/syliloque through in terms of grammar, or Unicron don't think good English?

If I was playing chess, for example, and all I had left on the board was my King, I certainly wouldn't imagine a win for me to be 'one of my possible futures', unless I was playing a very stupid opponent, who wouldn't have been able to get me in the position where all I had left was my King in the first place, unless I too was a very stupid opponent.

It's pretty much a given that GalvatronII was plucked from a future that stemmed from All Fall Down, but eventually didn't come to pass.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:10 pm

[quote="Rebis]

The way I saw it, at the time of The Bridge to Nowhere, only Straxus (and a select few Decepticons) and Perceptor's cell knew of the earthbound Transformers, but as Perceptor's cell either died or went to Earth, the only way that Xaaron's cell knew was through infiltration. This info was probably a closely guarded secret amongst the Autobots, but the Decepticons probably didn't care, so while Max didn't know, Scorpy probably knew but didn't care.

Or possibly there's more than one Smelting Pool and Max's recruitment campaign wasn't as global as it first appeared?

Maybe even with the knowledge of Prime's survival, Max was too disenchanted to continue, or maybe Cybertron learnt of Prime's death and many of their hopes were dashed by this?[/quote]

The Bot resistance was pretty splintered, but there had to be some connection between the various cells. Main evidence for this is the fake meeting Xaaron called together - all the Autobot cell leaders. I know, it was all FC's, but the COns had to believe it was real, so the least is to assume the cells had radio contact in the least.

So, I see no reason why both Max and SCorpy could know about Earth and OP/Megs. But, since Fort Max left cybertron to find peace, and Scorpy was only interested in finding Max, neither had any reason to go to Earth. And later, Max/Galen already decided to leave Nebulos, and the call from Bumblebee came at the right time. Perhaps, without it, he might have returned to Cybertron.

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