Earthforce

[Legion]

Rhythms of Darkness diverges from whichever timeline you put Primal Scream in because Unicron considers it one of his possible futures - so it's definitely on course to happen by that point.

Hmmm, bugger! that raises a few ackward points. Firstly, unless Unicron holds off on attacking Cyb for a few years (maybe if he hadn't have plucked Galv from the future, he would have held off on his attack...) and also as things were progressing it was looking unlikely for any of the "movie" events to occur, which means he wouldn't have created Galvatron/Cyc/Scourge... it clear from GalvatronII's memories (when he confronts Megatron) that he was indeed created in 2005 so it's definitely a version of the "movie" timeline... but maybe not the very original one...

Maybe, due to a lack of GalvatronII, the Rhythms of Darkness timeline and the 'movie' timeline just converge to parallelism in the intervening 15 years or so?

Hmm... that would be interesting... it would involve a continuation of Timeline C (post time wars/primal scream) where G2 doesn't happen (megs is in his original form in galvie's flash back) but some sort of attack on autobot city in 2005 does... christ, that would be one ****** up timeline... no wonder Unicron was trying to avoid it!
Logically, without GalvatronII, Xaaron wouldn't have awoken Primus, Primus wouldn't have summoned all the TFs to Cybertron and Prime&Scorpy's Alliance would have taken shape on Earth... interesting!
When was "Civil War 2" set? 1992? Just wondering as in Aspects of Evil:Scorponok, there's a Con civil war raging... wondering if the Con's splintered because of Scorpy's alliance.

of course, we could just take it to mean that "one of my possible futures" could include a timeline that was once one of his futures, but no longer is. in a way that would make sense for him to pluck a Galvatron from a timeline that that Unicron himself would no longer be part of, otherwise he would be stealing a useful resource from himself... much better to steal it from somewhere that later down the road you won't miss...

So, now you're saying that either Furman didn't think his Unicron narrative/monologue/syliloque through in terms of grammar, or Unicron don't think good English?

Well, a Demi God shouldn't have to worry about grammar too much
But i do see your point, it's just that to me, it would have to be quite a convoluted path to get from All Fall Down to someting remembling the Movie.

If I was playing chess, for example, and all I had left on the board was my King, I certainly wouldn't imagine a win for me to be 'one of my possible futures', unless I was playing a very stupid opponent, who wouldn't have been able to get me in the position where all I had left was my King in the first place, unless I too was a very stupid opponent.

Ah! but if you were able to take a couple of pawns with your king and then turn them into queens straight away... Unicron could do that...

It's pretty much a given that GalvatronII was plucked from a future that stemmed from All Fall Down, but eventually didn't come to pass.

I can see your point, but as i say above, i have trouble trying to invisage it, it would have to be so totally different... unless you want to try and say that Timeline D (the Earthforce one) is what would have happened if Unicron hadn't summoned Galvatron II and gone on and attacked Cybertron straight away? hmmmm....

[Guest]

Hmm... that would be interesting... it would involve a continuation of Timeline C (post time wars/primal scream) where G2 doesn't happen (megs is in his original form in galvie's flash back) but some sort of attack on autobot city in 2005 does... christ, that would be one ****** up timeline... no wonder Unicron was trying to avoid it!
Logically, without GalvatronII, Xaaron wouldn't have awoken Primus, Primus wouldn't have summoned all the TFs to Cybertron and Prime&Scorpy's Alliance would have taken shape on Earth... interesting!
When was "Civil War 2" set? 1992? Just wondering as in Aspects of Evil:Scorponok, there's a Con civil war raging... wondering if the Con's splintered because of Scorpy's alliance.

Only if the alliance occured in the 'Movie' timeline, as it's Roddy's pre-Movie past that the three-way Con civil war happened in.

Your logic is quite flawless, btw.

I wouldn't automatically assume that the reason there's a battered Megs in Rhythms 2005 and a dead Roddy in Rhythms 2009 is because somehow the lack of GalvatronII led to an attack on Autobot City. Who's to say there even was an Autobot City in that timeline?

It's pretty much a given that GalvatronII was plucked from a future that stemmed from All Fall Down, but eventually didn't come to pass.

I can see your point, but as i say above, i have trouble trying to invisage it, it would have to be so totally different... unless you want to try and say that Timeline D (the Earthforce one) is what would have happened if Unicron hadn't summoned Galvatron II and gone on and attacked Cybertron straight away? hmmmm....

Unicron was by no means flawless. Or omniscient or even omnipotent. In fact, he suffered many flawed qualities: desire, greed, arrogance, to name a few.

He overlooked GalvatronII's independence and Prime's resilience. So why couldn't he have overlooked temporal divergences as well? He dipped into a possible future where he had destroyed Cybertron and saw his agent doing his work. Without checking the intervening time to see how that future would pan out, he just went ahead and sent for Galvy. In one timeline, Galvy never arrived, and maybe this caused Unicron to take two, plan more carefully and bide his time, resulting in Rhythms. While in the other, Galvy arrived, Unicron became overconfident, and ended up as a fireworks display.

He does admit to acquiring Galvy as being unnecessary.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I just love the way that G1 essentialy revolves around Galvatron.
It makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

[Legion]

Your logic is quite flawless, btw.

Thanks, i like thinking in timelines, which is why BTTF2 is a bit of a let down to me!

I wouldn't automatically assume that the reason there's a battered Megs in Rhythms 2005 and a dead Roddy in Rhythms 2009 is because somehow the lack of GalvatronII led to an attack on Autobot City. Who's to say there even was an Autobot City in that timeline?

Ah, that might be my bad, i was trying to recall the monologue that went with the flashback, thought it mentioned AC:E. If it doesn't then it would just be a huge blinding coincidence that Megs was sent a floating in 2005 and found by Unicron... (predestination?)

He overlooked GalvatronII's independence and Prime's resilience. So why couldn't he have overlooked temporal divergences as well? He dipped into a possible future where he had destroyed Cybertron and saw his agent doing his work. Without checking the intervening time to see how that future would pan out, he just went ahead and sent for Galvy. In one timeline, Galvy never arrived, and maybe this caused Unicron to take two, plan more carefully and bide his time, resulting in Rhythms. While in the other, Galvy arrived, Unicron became overconfident, and ended up as a fireworks display.

He does admit to acquiring Galvy as being unnecessary.

Very true, it's a bit ironic to me that Unicron's (supposed) greatest creation (Galvatron) also appears to be his undoing most of the time!

I'm gonna make a diagram of all this i think! That's my task for this evening when i get home from work, more fun than pushing the vacuum 'round!

[spiderfrommars]

When was "Civil War 2" set? 1992? Just wondering as in Aspects of Evil:Scorponok, there's a Con civil war raging... wondering if the Con's splintered because of Scorpy's alliance.

Round about 1991. The Aspects of Evil story is also set in 1991. It also featured Scorponok in a civil war with Shockwave. Coincidence? I think perhaps Furman had big plans.

Of course the tale was being recounted by a Rodimus Prime in the far future... which bleeding timeline is that?

And where does Peace fit in?

[Legion]

When was "Civil War 2" set? 1992? Just wondering as in Aspects of Evil:Scorponok, there's a Con civil war raging... wondering if the Con's splintered because of Scorpy's alliance.

Round about 1991. The Aspects of Evil story is also set in 1991. It also featured Scorponok in a civil war with Shockwave. Coincidence? I think perhaps Furman had big plans.

Ah-ha! (yes i think he did, it's shame they never fully took shape!)

Of course the tale was being recounted by a Rodimus Prime in the far future... which bleeding timeline is that?

That's Timeline E (which is divergent from Timeline B at the point of instead of Galvy jumping back from 2007 (as seen in Fallen Angel) he doesn't (because of the future being re-written by the TimeWars as seen in AOE:Galvatron))...

And where does Peace fit in?

Oh for [composite word including 'f*ck']'s sake... i'd forgotten about that... well, logically i guess as Roddy is alive and well i'm guessing it would be Timeline A or B.


[edit]
ok, got bored at work, here's a quick diagram to show my timelines
[/edit]

[Birdman]

Hi all,
Temporal paradoxes have a strange habit of doing one's head in, if one lets them! Mind you, it is a good (if perhaps impossible) excercise in lateral thinking to try to make sense of the various timelines.
I really am unclear as to the events of any (potential) futures following the 'death' of the 'original' Galvatron in the Time Wars, having long since stopped reading the comics before 'Perchance to Dream' etc were published. Sure, I read most of the later stories years later on the net, but, as these are no longer freely available, I am unable to make any intelligent supposition based on these.
Given that Galvatron's first time-jump set a series of events in motion that led to the creation of the Straxatron, which Galvy later ends up getting 'past memories' from, is it either the case that
a) the Megatron in the original 'movie' timeline WAS the Straxatron all along, and the events that led to this 'Megatron' encountering the true Megs on Cybertron never happened, leading to this robot continuing to lead the 'cons until that fateful attack on Autobot City

b) the 'original' Galvatron was created from the true Megatron, and, in the original 'pre-jump' timeline, there was never a Straxatron, or the Time Wars, or anything else, with Unicron not attacking until 2005 or 2006, depending on the dating used for the 'movie' events in the comic.
By jumping into the past, therefore, Galvatron changes his own past timeline to such a degree that, while he had been created from Megatron pre-jump, post-jump he was now the reconstructed Straxatron, which may explain his increased levels of insanity from 'Fallen Angel' onwards...?

c) Shockwave simply hired a giant insane robot from the same company that supplied the 'future Stan and Butters' in the South Park episode 'My Future Self and Me', though what exactly he stood to gain by showing Megs that, if he were to carry on as he was, he would become an insanely powerful 'bot...that'll stop him, Shockers!

Regarding

Ah! but if you were able to take a couple of pawns with your king and then turn them into queens straight away... Unicron could do that...

I know that Cyclonus wore a bit too much eye-shadow, and Scourge's nails were a bit long, but they are hardly queens, are they...?

[Legion]

yes!

b) the 'original' Galvatron was created from the true Megatron, and, in the original 'pre-jump' timeline, there was never a Straxatron, or the Time Wars, or anything else, with Unicron not attacking until 2005 or 2006, depending on the dating used for the 'movie' events in the comic.
By jumping into the past, therefore, Galvatron changes his own past timeline to such a degree that, while he had been created from Megatron pre-jump, post-jump he was now the reconstructed Straxatron, which may explain his increased levels of insanity from 'Fallen Angel' onwards...?

this is right. orignally Galvy was a reformatted Megs and Straxatron never existed (as "Prey" wouldn't have happened if not for "T:2006"). However the Galvatron that travelled back in "Fallen Angel" was built from Straxatron (as seen by the fact he has flashbacks to 'Megatron' in TimeWars, but that Megatron is actually Straxatron).
It's certainly a more palatable reason for his increased loonacy than "Blaster's gun did it"...

Regarding

Ah! but if you were able to take a couple of pawns with your king and then turn them into queens straight away... Unicron could do that...

I know that Cyclonus wore a bit too much eye-shadow, and Scourge's nails were a bit long, but they are hardly queens, are they...?

Well Cyc was a moaning bitch and Scourge was clearly a transvestite, so...

[spiderfrommars]

How can Straxatron be Galvatron when he's killed by Megatron?

[Legion]

How can Straxatron be Galvatron when he's killed by Megatron?

ah! but think about it, where do we see that happen? Timeline C! (i need to add that onto the diagram actually) A timeline where, as it turns out, Megatron will never be reformated into Galvatron anyway.
Obviously (well, to me anyway ) as per the evidence in Timewars, in Timeline B, Straxatron is able to maintain the Megatron persona up until his reformatting in 2005/6, so one has to assume that either the original Megs was never rescued from the deadend by Blackjack (or whatever his name was) or was indeed destroyed by the the spacebridge explosion he caused. (or maybe even more dramatically, was killed by Ravage and/or Straxatron upon finally returning to the fold)... or maybe for some reason Megatron's persona was just stronger than Straxus' in that Timeline?

[Guest]

Timeline E

Snap! I've had 5 timelines for years!

Liking this. It's so clear.

Think I'll be spending some time over the weekend doing a similar diagram to further illustrate my theory.

[Scraplet]

My brain hurts. Make it stop.

[Bouncelot]

ok, got bored at work, here's a quick diagram to show my timelines

I only seem to be able to get the thumbnail version, and even with zooming in, I can't read it.

[Legion]

ok, got bored at work, here's a quick diagram to show my timelines

I only seem to be able to get the thumbnail version, and even with zooming in, I can't read it.

that's odd, try going directly to:

http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ine2dw.gif

[Bouncelot]

ok, got bored at work, here's a quick diagram to show my timelines

I only seem to be able to get the thumbnail version, and even with zooming in, I can't read it.

that's odd, try going directly to:

http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ine2dw.gif

That works. Thanks.

That diagram makes plenty of sense.

[adamtrion]

I think that:

Timeline 1: leads to TF The Movie.

Timeline 2: Target 2006 happens + Fallen Angel up to Time Wars - new future crated -> Unicron brings RoD Galvatron then......(Split happens after TF US #70).

Timeline 2a: RoD Galvatron goes to Cyberton , leads to Primal Scream + Grimlock finds Nuclion and revives Dinobots & Classic Autobots.

Timeline 2a (End 1): Another Time and place.

Timeline 2a (End 2): Generation 2

Timeline 2b: RoD Galvatron revives Classic Autobots in PoD. Grimlock uses Nuclion only on Dinobots (as seen in TF UK#262) leads to rest of Earthforce Tales -> then can possibly leads to TF The Movie (In this reality after Megs & Rachet where seperated megatron escaped to earth then PoD happens as there are no other Autobots on ship).

Now about Starxus/Megatron:

In Timeline 1a: Beacuse there is no future Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge. Starx/Megs possibly goes to Cybertron (similer to when he did after Time Wars) there meets Real Megatron and Dies. Real Megatron still becomes Galvatron. Leads to TF:TM

In Timeline 1b: Beacuse there is no future Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge. Starx/Megs doesnt go to Cybertron to be killed by Real Megatron so he becomes Galvatron. Leads to TF:TM, Target 2006 up to Time Wars.

In Timeline 1c: there is no Starx/Megs. Leads to Primal Scream then to (1c1) Another Time & Place OR (1c2) Generation 2. (US Story)

In Timeline 1d(1a): there is no Starx/Megs. Leads to Earthforce then to TF:TM.

In Timeline 2b(1b):Because of time travel Starx/Megs will become Galvatron in the future -> Leads to Earthforce that possibly leads to TF:TM and than to Timeline 2b. that confirms Target 2006 up to Time Wars.

In Timeline 2a(1c): there is no Starx/Megs. Leads to Primal Scream then to (1c1) Another Time & Place OR (1c2) Generation 2

AoE(The Void) 1: An Alternet Universe in which the Decepticons defeted the Autobots in TF:TM

AoE(The Void) 2: the year of the story is not 2009 but 2010 the Galvatron of this story is realiy the Galvatron from Time Wars that because of the Time Rip went back to the future just after Rodimus & Crew goes to the past to battle in the Time Wars. that way Galvatron has a year to take control of cybertron.

[spiderfrommars]

I've given up trying to make it all fit (I used to obsess over it) but when it comes to Marvel I lump everything in either the present day continuity or the TF:TM future timeline.

[Best First]

I've given up trying to make it all fit (I used to obsess over it) but when it comes to Marvel I lump everything in either the present day continuity or the TF:TM future timeline.

me too - too be honest the more effort peopl eput into it the more pointless is seems to me.

[Guest]

I make it pointless! Yay!

[Legion]

heathen's, the lot of you!!

i'm telling you, it's the one thing, the only thing, that makes sense...




just reposting it, as i'd forgotten i'd done this...

[Guest]

Damnit, Jim! If Galvatron never journeyed back in time, Prime'd never go after Megatron, they'd never have ended up on Cybertron and Straxus wouldn't've been able to attempt to possess him.

No Galvatron = No Straxatron.

[Legion]

No Galvatron = No Straxatron.

Yup, as seen in timeline A!

[Denyer]

We all try as we might, there is simply no way to fit Earthforce into normal US/Uk continuity.

Nah, Earthforce is the normal UK continuity... there are three, discounting Rhythms as an alt-universe.

1) timeline in which a version of the movie takes place, plus Legacy of Unicron, later becoming the Aspects of Evil future. [UK]
2) timeline in which Primal Scream / On the Edge of Extinction take place. [US]
3) timeline which is interfered with by 1) then proceeds towards a warped version of 2). Never concluded. [UK]

Timeline 3 includes Target:2006 through to Time Wars, and the Earthforce / Survivors stories. It's the main UK timeline.

The only important point (especially for new readers who find it confusing) is that the main events of Target:2006 and Legacy of Unicron involve two separate timelines, and the former timeline doesn't at some point lead into the latter -- it goes into a nightmarish future in which Unicron returns again and again. Fun, wholesome entertainment for kids...

[Guest]

So, where's the point of divergence between 2 and 3? Does 1 sit in-between these two?

And, if Galvatron was destroyed by the time rift, how can he miraculously be restored simply by passing through the rift into timeline 1? Wouldn't the necessary rewriting of 1 be, in effect, evidence of the Aspects of Evil timeline being an alternate of 1?

If you're saying Rhythms is discounted as an alt-universe, surely 1 and 3 should also be discounted as alt-universes too, if we use 2 to continue into G2, etc?

[Denyer]

where's the point of divergence between 2 and 3?

Convergence. 3 doesn't stem from 2, it's the main UK one. It leads into a Unicron confrontation similar to the one in the US stories, via Earthforce -- but one which would, at the very least, involve some cast differences since characters are awakened in Perchance to Dream rather than with Nucleon by Grimlock.

if Galvatron was destroyed by the time rift, how can he miraculously be restored simply by passing through the rift

*shrug*

That's just what's presented by The Void / Edge of Impact / Shadow of Evil / White Fire. It's narrative deus ex machina to tidy things up, reel off a few short stories and meet deadlines, a TF version of Trek technobabble.

If you're saying Rhythms is discounted

It's only discounted insofar as we don't see it in the comics as a continuing timeline; it's just a device to grab a Galvatron. People can delve into Hypertime-style continuity if they want* but for purpose of explaining stuff to a new reader, the above basically works. It's KISS principle explanation.

*Since the characterisation in the US and UK stories rarely matches up, there'd be constant branching and weaving in the manner proposed by Morrison in The Kingdom.

[Guest]

where's the point of divergence between 2 and 3?

Convergence. 3 doesn't stem from 2, it's the main UK one. It leads into a Unicron confrontation similar to the one in the US stories, via Earthforce -- but one which would, at the very least, involve some cast differences since characters are awakened in Perchance to Dream rather than with Nucleon by Grimlock.

Sorry, I disagree with the term convergence, here. It's a divergence. An off-screen separation of the two histories to an extent that events differ considerably between them.

if Galvatron was destroyed by the time rift, how can he miraculously be restored simply by passing through the rift

*shrug*

That's just what's presented by The Void / Edge of Impact / Shadow of Evil / White Fire. It's narrative deus ex machina to tidy things up, reel off a few short stories and meet deadlines, a TF version of Trek technobabble.

There's no evidence in Aspects of Evil: Galvatron that the Galvatron portrayed there is the same Galvatron that was in Time Wars. Rodimus states that he and his surviving companions are shocked to discover, having recently witnessed the demise of a Galvatron, an intact Galvatron who has taken over Cybertron. Nothing to indicate a miraculous ressurection, just a future that rarely resembles the one they came from.

[Denyer]

Sorry, I disagree with the term convergence, here. It's a divergence. An off-screen separation of the two histories to an extent that events differ considerably between them.

They both lead into a confrontation with Unicron with roughly the same cast, Deathbringer setup, etcetera, which is a point of convergence.

There's no evidence in Aspects of Evil: Galvatron that the Galvatron portrayed there is the same Galvatron that was in Time Wars.

That Galvatron ceases to exist. Rodimus in The Void: "Galvatron still lived." As far as he's concerned, it's the same Galvatron up to the point they left. The Autobots have re-inserted into the timeline, and due to the mechanism they travelled by have kept their memories.

Seems pretty unequivocal.

Speculation beyond what's presented: there's a power gap from the Autobots being out of their native timestream (a paradox) which allowed the Decepticons to conquer the planet. Galvatron, as stated in Aspects of Evil part 2, didn't travel back in time.

Time travel in Marvel UK is nads at the best of times, with the limbo displacement contrivance supposedly preventing the fabric of spacetime unravelling... it certainly doesn't function in the way we'd speculate physics to operate.

[sprunkner]

I think that:

Timeline 1: leads to TF The Movie.

Timeline 2: Target 2006 happens + Fallen Angel up to Time Wars - new future crated -> Unicron brings RoD Galvatron then......(Split happens after TF US #70).

Timeline 2a: RoD Galvatron goes to Cyberton , leads to Primal Scream + Grimlock finds Nuclion and revives Dinobots & Classic Autobots.

Timeline 2a (End 1): Another Time and place.

Timeline 2a (End 2): Generation 2

Timeline 2b: RoD Galvatron revives Classic Autobots in PoD. Grimlock uses Nuclion only on Dinobots (as seen in TF UK#262) leads to rest of Earthforce Tales -> then can possibly leads to TF The Movie (In this reality after Megs & Rachet where seperated megatron escaped to earth then PoD happens as there are no other Autobots on ship).

Now about Starxus/Megatron:

In Timeline 1a: Beacuse there is no future Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge. Starx/Megs possibly goes to Cybertron (similer to when he did after Time Wars) there meets Real Megatron and Dies. Real Megatron still becomes Galvatron. Leads to TF:TM

In Timeline 1b: Beacuse there is no future Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge. Starx/Megs doesnt go to Cybertron to be killed by Real Megatron so he becomes Galvatron. Leads to TF:TM, Target 2006 up to Time Wars.

In Timeline 1c: there is no Starx/Megs. Leads to Primal Scream then to (1c1) Another Time & Place OR (1c2) Generation 2. (US Story)

In Timeline 1d(1a): there is no Starx/Megs. Leads to Earthforce then to TF:TM.

In Timeline 2b(1b):Because of time travel Starx/Megs will become Galvatron in the future -> Leads to Earthforce that possibly leads to TF:TM and than to Timeline 2b. that confirms Target 2006 up to Time Wars.

In Timeline 2a(1c): there is no Starx/Megs. Leads to Primal Scream then to (1c1) Another Time & Place OR (1c2) Generation 2

AoE(The Void) 1: An Alternet Universe in which the Decepticons defeted the Autobots in TF:TM

AoE(The Void) 2: the year of the story is not 2009 but 2010 the Galvatron of this story is realiy the Galvatron from Time Wars that because of the Time Rip went back to the future just after Rodimus & Crew goes to the past to battle in the Time Wars. that way Galvatron has a year to take control of cybertron.

And we complain about IDW starting the continuity over.

[spiderfrommars]

What did you think of the other mini TPBs Sprunk?

[Guest]

Sorry, I disagree with the term convergence, here. It's a divergence. An off-screen separation of the two histories to an extent that events differ considerably between them.

They both lead into a confrontation with Unicron with roughly the same cast, Deathbringer setup, etcetera, which is a point of convergence.

Do they? It's only in a single Earthforce story that Unicron is even mentioned. It's not expanded upon, there's no journeying to Cybertron to fight the good fight. The simple threat of Unicron doesn't mean that the confrontation with Unicron occurred around the same time as in the US timeline. For that matter, even without agreeing on how many timelines there are in the Marvel TF scope, they all involve a confrontation with Unicron. Does this mean they are all convergent and therefore none are divergent? I don't think it does.

And where is it shown that the Deathbringer setup is in Earthforce, anyway? Just because it's a black&white story doesn't automatically make it Earthforce.

There's no evidence in Aspects of Evil: Galvatron that the Galvatron portrayed there is the same Galvatron that was in Time Wars.

That Galvatron ceases to exist. Rodimus in The Void: "Galvatron still lived." As far as he's concerned, it's the same Galvatron up to the point they left. The Autobots have re-inserted into the timeline, and due to the mechanism they travelled by have kept their memories.

Seems pretty unequivocal.

Speculation beyond what's presented: there's a power gap from the Autobots being out of their native timestream (a paradox) which allowed the Decepticons to conquer the planet. Galvatron, as stated in Aspects of Evil part 2, didn't travel back in time.

You're obviously presenting the case that the Galvatron in Time Wars is the Galvatron in the altered future, but everything you're using has the appearance of supporting the contrary.

Time travel in Marvel UK is nads at the best of times, with the limbo displacement contrivance supposedly preventing the fabric of spacetime unravelling... it certainly doesn't function in the way we'd speculate physics to operate.

Then, wouldn't the logical thing to do be to be dismissive and not waste time argueing over something that can never be resolved? It is only fiction, anyway.

Geez.