I've noticed something in recent US comic reviews...

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:49 am

...The writer kept bringing up the point in "Funeral for a friend" (the "Afterdeath" funeral issue) that the Autobots should've tried looking for the Matrix before shooting Prime into space.

My problem is, he kept making it seem like the Matrix was a physical device, when Bob explicitly stated that it was a computer program that existed in Prime's mind. The Furman retcon (which really didn't make sense in relating to past history, but had to be added due to the Movie) didn't come for years. So I think it's kinda wrong to keep stating it like it's a mistake, when it's really something that got retconned into not making sense but made sense in the original story.

Does anybody understand what I'm saying?

Post by **Denyer** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:56 am

ShadowSonic wrote: I think it's kinda wrong to keep stating it like it's a mistake,

It's not a mistake in the sense of the blue crystal gadget, but you could reasonably assume they wouldn't ditch Prime's corpse when they know he has the matrix locked inside his head. If they'd been thinking.

After all, they don't know the capabilities of the matrix program. It can create life, how about sticking Prime in a locked room for a while and seeing if it spontaneously heals him?

Uberking Robert · Post by **Uberking Robert** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:03 am

ShadowSonic wrote:...The writer kept bringing up the point in "Funeral for a friend" (the "Afterdeath" funeral issue) that the Autobots should've tried looking for the Matrix before shooting Prime into space.

My problem is, he kept making it seem like the Matrix was a physical device, when Bob explicitly stated that it was a computer program that existed in Prime's mind. The Furman retcon (which really didn't make sense in relating to past history, but had to be added due to the Movie) didn't come for years. So I think it's kinda wrong to keep stating it like it's a mistake, when it's really something that got retconned into not making sense but made sense in the original story.

Does anybody understand what I'm saying?

I don't.

Post by **Denyer** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:56 am

http://www.toefl.org/

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:59 pm

Was that directed at me? I'm sorry if I was unclear:

Originally, the Matrix wasn't a physical object, it was a computer program (pure data) in Prime's mind/spark that allowed him to create new TF life. It also wasn't a sign of leadership, just some holy item.

So, when Prime blew himself up in "Afterdeath", the Matrix (which existed only in his mind at the time) died with him, or got stuck on that disk with him.

Later on, becuase of the Movie, the Matrix had to be retconned that it was now a physical object, the crystal conatiner thing, and it was a sign of leadership. This didn't come until the movie, and was in the cartoon universe mainly so it had little effect on the US comics.

But Furman was writing stories based on the Movie, so he had to change the Matrix to be like the cartoon version, and when he came over to the US comics he brought the changes with him.

Now, in retrospect, the Autobots not seearching for the Matrix in Prime's corpse made little sense if the Matrix was retconned into being a physical device. But in the original story, before the retcon, it DID make sense becuase the Matrix would've died with Prime.

Now do you get it?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:08 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Was that directed at me?

No, I think it was aimed at yon guy who didn't know what you were saying. Your comments are pretty clear to anybody with knowledge of the source material.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:42 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Does anybody understand what I'm saying?

Yeah, unforuntately it's just one of those things. I tend to just shrug and brush over it as there are numerous occaisions when (pre-movie) for one reason or another the Bots didn't open up Primes lifeless body and get the (post-movie) matrix out.

The movie has a lot to answer for... The Autobot Discoball plot-device being one of them (Wheelie being another).

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:42 pm

I sort of get where your comming from, my knowledge of what was in the US comics and thier time line is a lil blured, so im unsure of the continuity.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:02 pm

Okay, it's just that it sorta seemed in the review the reviewer was making it out to be an attack on Bob's writing, when it was later retcons that made it nonsensical.

Of course, I actually agree with all the "Mechanic" criticisms...

Scraplet · Post by **Scraplet** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:36 pm

In many ways the 'computer programme in Primes mind' always made more sense to me.

If it is just a very advanced AI programme, they TFs can be 'alive' (read: sentient) just by possessing a personallity based on the programme.

As soon as you have a 'physical lifeforce', then it implies that Tfs are alive in a way that is more, for the lack of a better word, organic.

Does that make sense?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:44 am

I assume you're talking about these?

http://www.transfans.net/comics_guide_detail.php?id=121

http://www.transfans.net/comics_guide_detail.php?id=122

Of course you have a totally valid point. I think its just Boba poking a little more fun at a story that really is the pits anyway. I don't blame him.

And Budiansky did totally ignore the exact fate of the Matrix programme. A small bit of exposition wouldn't have hurt.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:06 pm

I don't think all the autobots knew Prime had it either. Remember it wasn't a sign of leadership and all Primes then, it was some holy Relic. It's not like eveyr Pope has the Holy Grail now does he?

I know that Furman revealed that the Bots knew (In "Chain of Command" or something), but then again, that's just another example of poor communications between US and UK.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:41 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:I don't think all the autobots knew Prime had it either. Remember it wasn't a sign of leadership and all Primes then, it was some holy Relic. It's not like eveyr Pope has the Holy Grail now does he?

Yes, Megatron seemed shocked to learn of it when Shockers first told him Prime had been encoded with it. (Memory fails me precisely, but doesn't he even seem suspicious that it existed at all?)

So i'd say it wasn't a well known thing.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:14 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:
I know that Furman revealed that the Bots knew (In "Chain of Command" or something), but then again, that's just another example of poor communications between US and UK.

The story wasn't by Furman, but by Collins/Hill. And it seized on a very valid plot hole - if Prime has the Matrix why not use it all the time?

It wasn't the first time the UK stories helped fill in Budiansky's plot holes.

ShadowSonic wrote:I don't think all the autobots knew Prime had it either. Remember it wasn't a sign of leadership and all Primes then, it was some holy Relic. It's not like eveyr Pope has the Holy Grail now does he?

Legion wrote:
Yes, Megatron seemed shocked to learn of it when Shockers first told him Prime had been encoded with it. (Memory fails me precisely, but doesn't he even seem suspicious that it existed at all?)

So i'd say it wasn't a well known thing.

Well its true that Megatron originally thought of it as some sort of legend, but I'd have to say that after the events of Prime Time the Autobots would have had to have been living in a cave not to have realised Prime had the Matrix. And I don't mean the cave in Mount St Hilary!

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:17 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Well its true that Megatron originally thought of it as some sort of legend, but I'd have to say that after the events of Prime Time the Autobots would have had to live in a cave not to realise Prime had the Matrix.

And I don't mean the cave in Mount St Hilary!

Well, it was pretty explicit that they knew in Crisis of Command and Second Generation. However, if they thought of it as a program residing in his mind, they may have believed it to be irrevocably gone when Prime died.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:21 pm

I guess what's noty clear is how the other Autobot's thought the matrix manifested itself - whethert it could be passed esily or it required some kind of ceremony (as seen in WW vol 1), if its the latter maybe they thought they didn't need to worry about it as the matrix would 'return to source'.

At the end of the day though its a gap left by Bob that can't really later be explained due to both the movie and Furmy's adoption of aspects of it.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:13 pm

Best First wrote:I guess what's noty clear is how the other Autobot's thought the matrix manifested itself - whethert it could be passed esily or it required some kind of ceremony (as seen in WW vol 1), if its the latter maybe they thought they didn't need to worry about it as the matrix would 'return to source'.

At the end of the day though its a gap left by Bob that can't really later be explained due to both the movie and Furmy's adoption of aspects of it.

There's also the odditiy that Op uses the Matrix during Time Wars to get out of Limbo.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:05 pm

I think that can be fairly easily explained by the fact one matrix is enough - Prime, as a past holder, can use Rodimus's matrix to forge a connection.

maybe...

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:12 pm

Best First wrote:I think that can be fairly easily explained by the fact one matrix is enough - Prime, as a past holder, can use Rodimus's matrix to forge a connection.

maybe...

'twould suggest that he can contact Rodimus when Rodimus is in 2006 even after losing the Matrix. Of course you could argue that Powermaster Prime ISN'T a past matrix holder, merely a copy. Mind you, it would be vaguely consistent with the future-predicting dream that Buster had in Second Generation.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:15 pm

Best First wrote:I guess what's noty clear is how the other Autobot's thought the matrix manifested itself - whethert it could be passed esily or it required some kind of ceremony (as seen in WW vol 1), if its the latter maybe they thought they didn't need to worry about it as the matrix would 'return to source'.

At the end of the day though its a gap left by Bob that can't really later be explained due to both the movie and Furmy's adoption of aspects of it.

My thoughts exactly. I mean it's not like Prime showed the Matrix around to anyone... In Marvel we can pretty much assume not many Bots even saw the matrix except Prime and maybe the Council.

My theory is that the Bots thought the Matrix to be some program that was in Prime's mind, and thus died with him. Of course Ratchet should have noticed that big blue crystal in Prime's chest when operating him, but hey, pobody's nerfect.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:28 pm

Well yeah. That's sorta why I posted this topic. People say something like that was a big plot hole for Bob, when in truth it's more a plot hole for Furman (who chnaged it to being a physical object) in relating his stories to past stories.

Of course, it is all becuase of the movie.

Either that or Ratchet was having an even bigger off-say than the story suggests...

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:33 pm

Maybe he already seen it while patching up Prime earlier.

-What's that, Prime?
-Uhm, err... It's... really, Rathcet, that's personal. I got it as a token from... umm... Elita One.
-Elita who?
-Oh, never mind. I just keep it in my chest as a good luck charm. It has no significance or value otherwise.

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I've noticed something in recent US comic reviews...

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Re: I've noticed something in recent US comic reviews...