The bits I try to ignore....

[Scraplet]

Some TF things that annoy me, inspired by early Marvel:

Super-advanced beings from another world, capable of traveling across the galaxy adopt primitive internal combustion engines and jet-engines to propell their alt.forms. Why would they do that!!! And anyway, most of them have heads or arms under the bonnet. There's no room for an engine.

A human mechanic in 1984 is capable of repairing a super-advanced alien technology the first time he sees it.

Liquid fuel, chemical energy - not very advanced. Tfs should not be sloshing about half full of liquid fuel. And anyway, you generally need organic processes to create such fuel - they're from a planet with no organic processes! It pains me to say it, but the cartoon wins here with energon cubes IMO.

You cut 'em open and they're full of wires and circuit boards, like some old Sinclair Spectrum. TFs must be more advanced than this, surely?

I suppose it was a product of its time in many ways, and few could have imagined how quickly technology would move on in the real world. But it annoys me that, well Budansky I suppose, wasn't capable of a bit more imagination on these things......these are advanced beings......

Thoughts? Am I just being a miserable old git?

[Shanti418]

Hmm...seems like a lot of the same problems dealt with in the "Is human weaponry effective against TF" thread.

In a word, yes and no. Should the TF be more advanced than just wires and sparkplugs that a grease monkey can fix? Should they run on something other than a fuel derived from organic processes? Of course.

If you were some nameless writer in the mid 80s saddled with writing a comic book for some crappy toy that no one will probably remember in five years, would you just "Ah, f*** it" and have them drinking motor oil like soda, needing parts like transistors and circuits, and being repaired by things found in a junkyard? Most likely.

Now, what will the MOVIE TFs run on?

[spiderfrommars]

The nonsense that is the Spectromax computer in Afterdeath. I can only suspend disbelief so far.

Earthforce continuity... what a mess.

Grimlock's inconsistent brain.

Jessie... why couldn't she wear that bikini in every story?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Super-advanced beings from another world, capable of traveling across the galaxy adopt primitive internal combustion engines and jet-engines to propell their alt.forms. Why would they do that!!! And anyway, most of them have heads or arms under the bonnet. There's no room for an engine.

Erm they are called 'robots in disguise' - they took on earther forms to be in disguise!! - cybertronian forms just dont work.

A human mechanic in 1984 is capable of repairing a super-advanced alien technology the first time he sees it.

he repairs a mechanical part - mechanics and technolagy are different beasts.[/quote]

Liquid fuel, chemical energy - not very advanced. Tfs should not be sloshing about half full of liquid fuel. And anyway, you generally need organic processes to create such fuel - they're from a planet with no organic processes! It pains me to say it, but the cartoon wins here with energon cubes IMO.

They can convert fuel to energon.

You cut 'em open and they're full of wires and circuit boards, like some old Sinclair Spectrum. TFs must be more advanced than this, surely?

Not really, they still have to transmit power and energy around a mass shape shifting object, bendy wires is a good idea. we have no idea what the wires are made of or what they do - they could be plasma conduits for all we know.
fibre optics, never relays - the thing is, you are more then lickly going to find wires and cables inside a robot, what they are made of, and what they do isnt stated so you cant complain.

Thoughts? Am I just being a miserable old git?

I think so

[spiderfrommars]

Super-advanced beings from another world, capable of traveling across the galaxy adopt primitive internal combustion engines and jet-engines to propell their alt.forms. Why would they do that!!! And anyway, most of them have heads or arms under the bonnet. There's no room for an engine.

Erm they are called 'robots in disguise' - they took on earther forms to be in disguise!! - cybertronian forms just dont work.

Yeah, I don't think their alt. modes are much weaker than their Cybertronian ones. Most TF car/planes are shown going many times faster than their Earthen counterparts.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

yes, for example, the average con seeker might look likea human plane but can travel much faster, and can turn far faster then anaverage human plane could. the TF materials taking the strain to compensate for the high ge-forces.

Autbot car modes seem to defy gravity aswell, bouncing and traveling over surfaces a normal human driver couldnt navigate.

A TF might be in disguise and look like an old bit of tired tech, but hes not under the bonnet.

[Señior's Covenant]

Well said. It's a disquise, not a forced limitation of form.

A human mechanic in 1984 is capable of repairing a super-advanced alien technology the first time he sees it.

he repairs a mechanical part - mechanics and technolagy are different beasts.

Liquid fuel, chemical energy - not very advanced. Tfs should not be sloshing about half full of liquid fuel. And anyway, you generally need organic processes to create such fuel - they're from a planet with no organic processes! It pains me to say it, but the cartoon wins here with energon cubes IMO.

Cartoon energon better? Don't have the time of finding it while typing this post but I recall quite often seeing them attach tubes and fill them with a liquid-like energon to fill the cube. Anyways, as pointed out prior they're handy at converting things into substances they run on.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

they seem to be able to convert any fuel, be it fossil or energy based into Energon, just slap a tube on a power station chimley and out pours liquid energon to fill up some cubes, an old tar pit, put a human in a tube and pipe his energy out etc... well in the cartoon you could.

But I think any 'fuel' soruce can be converted, perhaps energon is energy released from from matter, some matter contatining different ammounts of energy (yeah thats fuzzy I know) and TF have the tech to break it down and store it as pure energy.

I expect a black hole would be a good source...

[Metal Vendetta]

One of my favourite ever (EVER!) TF moments is when Megs tries to eat coal, then grinds to a halt in the middle of the mine. Awesome, awesome moment.

[Autobloke]

One of my favourite ever (EVER!) TF moments is when Megs tries to eat coal, then grinds to a halt in the middle of the mine. Awesome, awesome moment.

Damn those pregnancy cravings.
You have to wonder if the coal was a good idea though (yes, I know he was desperate at the time).

[Scraplet]

Super-advanced beings from another world, capable of traveling across the galaxy adopt primitive internal combustion engines and jet-engines to propell their alt.forms. Why would they do that!!! And anyway, most of them have heads or arms under the bonnet. There's no room for an engine.

Erm they are called 'robots in disguise' - they took on earther forms to be in disguise!! - cybertronian forms just dont work.

Yeah, I don't think their alt. modes are much weaker than their Cybertronian ones. Most TF car/planes are shown going many times faster than their Earthen counterparts.

I suppose what I'm getting at is;

A seeker on Cybertron would have some form of propulsion that is more advanced that 20thC. human technology. On earth he can be diguised as an F-16, but that doesn't require him to adopt a potentially poorer technology (eg jet engine) just to be 'in disguise'.

And similarly, with ground based vehicles, having the disguise of an internal combustion engine shouldn't require them to be dependant on it for propulsion.

he repairs a mechanical part - mechanics and technology are different beasts.

Fair point. But this still implies that Bumblebee is relient on mechanical parts that are not dissimilar to those found in (comparatively) primitive earth machinary. And that he is dependent on some of those mechanisms for life-support (he said he was dying).

But I think any 'fuel' soruce can be converted, perhaps energon is energy released from from matter, some matter contatining different ammounts of energy (yeah thats fuzzy I know) and TF have the tech to break it down and store it as pure energy.

But does that happen within the TF? I suppose the Ark could have modified them to convert 'local' fuel as well as making them look local, in that case

One of my favourite ever (EVER!) TF moments is when Megs tries to eat coal, then grinds to a halt in the middle of the mine. Awesome, awesome moment.

Internal conversion would explain that, I suppose.

[Metal Vendetta]

One of my favourite ever (EVER!) TF moments is when Megs tries to eat coal, then grinds to a halt in the middle of the mine. Awesome, awesome moment.

Damn those pregnancy cravings.
You have to wonder if the coal was a good idea though (yes, I know he was desperate at the time).

Something about the desperation just makes the moment that much greater - seeing Megatron, the baddest Decepticon ever, brought to his knees from running out of juice on this alien world. One of my favourite comic moments.

[Autobloke]

Something about the desperation just makes the moment that much greater - seeing Megatron, the baddest Decepticon ever, brought to his knees from running out of juice on this alien world. One of my favourite comic moments.

Yep. He was definitely circumstance's bitch on that occasion.

As for the alt mode thing. Surely if they're pretending to be earth jets, then their propulsion systems are pretending to be jet engines as well - but are in fact kickass alien skywoofers.
I will say that perhaps the aerodynamics of earth jet designs may be limiting to a TF used to more advanced forms.

[Scraplet]

As for the alt mode thing. Surely if they're pretending to be earth jets, then their propulsion systems are pretending to be jet engines as well - but are in fact kickass alien skywoofers.

Yeah, that would be my take on it. Its just when they are portrayed as 'just jets' with all the fallabilities of jets; that gets my goat.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

but even scram jets, which we have only just created, look like jets, yet allow for speeds of so far MACH 10, which is insane...

[Guest]

but even scram jets, which we have only just created, look like jets, yet allow for speeds of so far MACH 10, which is insane...

That would be because the wings are mostly for subsonic speed stability (i.e. during take-off & landing), and to allow for manoeuvring.

Basically, disregarding take-off, landing and the need to manoeuvre, the most efficient aircraft would look like an elongated bullet.

[jboyler]

the TF materials taking the strain to compensate for the high ge-forces.

Good point. A TF could have materials and computing power neccesary for high-speed flight, perhaps the most important of which is extremely precise computer control and construction materials which are strong and heat-resistant. Also keep in mind that modern fighters are restricted by the number of G-Forces a human body can withstand. An aircraft without a pilot would by much more maneuverable.

Check out http://www.nap.edu/execsumm/0309042291.html for a bit of background on this problem. My favorite quotes include:

To make (control at hypersonic speed) possible the information processing system installed in the prototype aircraft must be exceptionally reliable and be able to expand gracefully to the necessary size and throughput required for the final configuration, without need for redesign or reconfiguration...

In sum, vehicles with orbital or near-orbital capability in a single stage will require new materials and novel structural concepts to meet the structural integrity requirements of strength, rigidity, longevity, damage tolerance, and efficiency...

With a little bit of science fiction and some suspension of disbelief, it is easy to imagine advanced sentient machines fullfilling these requirements.

-J[/url]