Joe/TF

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:34 am

I'm pretty sure where this is going to go, judging by the reviews on this site. Unless Computron just owes Jae Lee money.

Obviously, DW Vol 2 doesn't count considering it never came close to being done.

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:26 am

Marvel, because even though two american ones are not so good, Ancient Relics is superb. DW one is surprisingly cool, but the ending...

Post by **Best First** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:37 am

there are 2 Marvel ones, UK and US.

UK is fun, US is gash.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:47 am

Best First wrote:there are 2 Marvel ones, UK and US.

UK is fun, US is gash.

What he said.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:59 am

spiderfrommars wrote:
Best First wrote:there are 2 Marvel ones, UK and US.

UK is fun, US is gash.
What he said.

Me three.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:17 am

Brendocon wrote:
spiderfrommars wrote:
Best First wrote:there are 2 Marvel ones, UK and US.

UK is fun, US is gash.
What he said.
Me three.

it's a foursome!

Scraplet · Post by **Scraplet** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:04 pm

Legion wrote:
Brendocon wrote:
spiderfrommars wrote: What he said.
Me three.
it's a foursome!

And I'll fith (?) it.....Haven't looked at it for a long time, but I remeber the script to be so painful it made me cringe. And I hated the way bumblebee could be so completely annillated by a bazooka and a few M16s.......Pah!

Stormwolf · Post by **Stormwolf** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:34 pm

Scraplet wrote:
Legion wrote:
Brendocon wrote: Me three.
it's a foursome!
And I'll fith (?) it.....Haven't looked at it for a long time, but I remeber the script to be so painful it made me cringe. And I hated the way bumblebee could be so completely annillated by a bazooka and a few M16s.......Pah!

Me sixth.

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:35 pm

Best First wrote:there are 2 Marvel ones, UK and US.

Three including the G2 Joe stuff.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:50 pm

Can't beat a bit of Ancient Relics.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:57 pm

None - GI Joe is dump.

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:53 pm

Sadly to say, Ancient Relics didn't really cut it for me. (better than the US one tho, of course) Even more when I realised that it began the continuity nightmare that was "two Megatrons".

I acctually really liked the G2 cross-over.

Seeing Megs with his supreme Cybertronian evil intellect, the foolish little human Cobra-worms completely unaware of just what they are dealing with, his battle with them in the beginning in a battered state. Still he is Megatron!

Marvelous.

But the art was sometimes utterly abysmal...

That seemed to be the curse of the Generation2, even in crossovers.

BUT, my absolute favorite of them all was acctually the DW v1. The setting, the story, the art. Jae Lee gave a completely new look for the TF, these dark, scary, bouldering alien mechanical contraptions with the ability to catch bullets with their bare hands. (I liked some of the touches with the TF's abilities, somewhat realistic acctually, considering they're superadvanced aliens from outer space. More of that please.)

The designs that Don Figueroa created for the TF's was smashin', he made very good choices for most of the alt-modes.

Really, the only bad thing was some of the colouring in a few panels, and the thing that soured it so much for a lot of people, the last issue. But everything points to the fact that the last issue was changed and rushed, and therefore didn't quite play out the way it should have.

I acctually feel that a new TPB of it, with some revised colouring, and a new last issue as a replacement, a directors cut edition, would be amazing. Anybody up for grabs for letting the people at IDW know of such a fan-request?

EDIT: Also, Autobloke is of course right, ussually G.I Joe is naught but dump.

(Methinks it's time for another TF VS G.I Joe fisticuffs thread..)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:10 pm

Predabot wrote:I acctually feel that a new TPB of it, with some revised colouring, and a new last issue as a replacement, a directors cut edition, would be amazing. Anybody up for grabs for letting the people at IDW know of such a fan-request?

Hmm... You, perhaps?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:21 pm

Hmmm. So, best to worst IMO:

Marvel UK 'Ancient Relics' TF/Action Force
Marvel US G2/Gi-Joe
Dreamwave TF/Gi-Joe
Devil's Due Vol 1 Gi-Joe/TF
Devil's Due Vol 2 Gi-Joe/TF
Marvel US G1/Gi-Joe

I thinks thats all of 'em that were completed.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:13 am

spiderfrommars wrote:Hmmm. So, best to worst IMO:

Marvel UK 'Ancient Relics' TF/Action Force
Marvel US G2/Gi-Joe
Dreamwave TF/Gi-Joe
Devil's Due Vol 1 Gi-Joe/TF
Devil's Due Vol 2 Gi-Joe/TF
Marvel US G1/Gi-Joe

I thinks thats all of 'em that were completed.

Leaving out DD Vol.2 (as I never read it) I'd agree with spidey. Ancient Relics is fun, and the G2 crossover ain't half bad either...although all the Ninja-Force malarkey, urgh.

Off-topic a bit:
I actually like GI Joe, I picked up their own book and read the reprints in TF with interest.
It was the first book to show me a lot of comic tricks that I was wowed by, and still reference in my mind when talking about comic storytelling. For instance:
the 'Hush' issue where Snake-Eyes rescues Scarlett from Castle Destro, tangling with Storm Shadow along the way, which is completely silent; no dialogue, no text-boxes, just simple, spot-on, completely engrossing sequential art storytelling.
It was reprised in a related sequel later on less successfully (Scarlett and Storm Shadow rescue Snake Eyes from Cobra's NY Building), and it's a technique that pops up a lot, but this was the first time I'd read a comic like that, and I think it still holds up.

Extensive foreshadowing/deep advance background plotting with controlled beats; namely the 'Fred' story where a particular Crimson Guard turns out to be the only other survivor of Stalker, Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes' vietnam squad, the one that got left behind.
This is a moving story in itself that's been slowly built up around visual images - the statue of the 3 GIs at Arlington cemetary is used particularly well - and plays out with wonderfully paced dips into flashback. An anonymous Cobra trooper turns out to be one of the most well-written and 'deep' characters in the book and you feel for him despite the fact that he's a baddie and does bad stuff. This story combines sharp emotional picks with a paced drip-feed of info to the reader, that the reader is dying to find out.
It's the absolute antithesis of an 'info-dump' or 'Shockwave speech' and is something I often remember when thinking of how to control the reader with one's story. Plus, it led off into the whole what's the deal with Storm Shadow story, which is actually very good despite the bad rep the overuse of Stormy and Snake that later stenched up their characters.

And here's another one; the Fight. One of the best Fight stories I've ever read is in a GI Joe book; it was serialised in TF, so you'll know the one - the one where Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow basically massacre their way through Cobra Island looking for a guy and have to fight their way out, only for Storm Shadow to get shot dead by the Baroness at the last minute.
Pure adrenalin storytelling, with high point after high point. And I was at an age where I still figured Storm Shadow might actually stay dead.
And what a great death-scene it was.

Of course, they ruined it later on by maxing out on the Ninjas and including some very silly things from the toy range verbatim and at the end of the day it is a comic about knuckleheads with guns that get almost fetishistically described, but for a while, it was good, IMHO.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:17 am

That Hush issue was top stuff. Enjoyed a couple of the back ups, for instance the one when they went on that mission behind the iron curtain and then had to escape (Cobra Commander was killed in the same issue). That whole Cobra Commander imposter thing was great as was the civil war (which I never got to see the conclusion of, though I assume Serpentor lost because CC is leader again by the time of G2).

What got on my nerves a bit about Joe was that their readers obviously thought it was more grown up than TFs even though their comic was filled with super powered humans (see Zartan) and people coming back from the dead. Military stuff doesn't interest me as much as sci-fi too, and Hama's scripts were often quite tech heavy.

So, did the real Cobra Commander return? How did the Joe comic finish? I might have to give in and buy a TPB.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:28 am

i thought the joe stuff was great - better then the main strip in some cases (and with better art too).

edit - collections are currently 25% off at Forbidden Planet. The y contain 10 issues each andso far they have reached volume 5.

http://www.fpigraphics.co.uk/acatalog/G_to_H.html

so... er i bought em all.

more edit - as for mroe mature, i think if i was comparing Hama's stuff to jst Bob B's stuff i can kinda se their point. Not so much with Furman's stuff.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:17 pm

KingMob wrote:no dialogue, no text-boxes, just simple, spot-on, completely engrossing sequential art storytelling.

I used to do this a lot when I drew comics. Amittedly, I'd sometimes go back and add text boxes and dialogue to spice things up or add a new slant to the story, but because I'd designed the art to tell the story on its own, I think that the text was like a chocolate topping to an alreadt tasty cake. I'll have to put some pages in the 'Fan Art' forum - I know exactly where the pages are.

I think that I didn't like GI Joe because military stuff bored the nips off of me, and I only really ever saw them in crossovers with TF - and you've all heard how I feel about humans having too much of an effect on the TF universe.
Action Force toys were cool though, back in the 80s - I'd have my TFs destroy all humans!

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:32 pm

I too never got into Joe b/c my parents didn't want me playing with stuff that glorified human military violence.

I do remember that "Silent" issue being passed around and venerated amongst ALL boys when I was a kid, though.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:48 pm

I remember 'Hustler' being passed around school and venerated amongst all boys.

Anywhere on the 'net where I can 'read' this 'Silent' story?

veritech · Post by **veritech** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:47 pm

Really, no Joe/TF x-over is great, in my opinion, but If I had to choose one, it would have to be the WWII Dreamwave crossover. That was pretty imaginative and artsy. I loved the very first scene with Snake Eyes and his portrayal as a monstrous in-human character.

The Devil Due x-overs (both volumes) really were good if you looked at both franchises from the cartoon perspective. If Joes and TF's were ever to have crossed over in the cartoon world, this is how it probably have looked.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:23 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:That Hush issue was top stuff.

Shanti418 wrote:I do remember that "Silent" issue being passed around and venerated amongst ALL boys when I was a kid, though.

Do you mean Silent Interlude, or Hush Job? Both, as far as I can remember, were speech bubble free.

Coincidentally, both involved Scarlett, Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow in a "rescue from Cobra HQ" storyline, but with the characters having very different roles in each.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:17 am

TBH, I can't remember which is which.
I meant the first one, with Snake-Eyes rescuing Scarlett from Storm Shadow in Castle Destro.
Is that Silent Interlude?
I have a feeling I may have got the names mixed up in my above post and called that one 'Hush {Job}' in error.

If anyone doesn't want some big, big SPOILERS about GI Joe, uh, skip to the end?

This is from memory, and as the above stuff about not remembering the title of my fave issue correctly shows, there may be some errors in this. Apols if so.
Cobra Commander wins the Cobra civil war because Zartan finally gets the drop on Serpentor and kills him with an arrow to the face. Doc Mindbender surrenders Serpentor's forces, the Joes are forced to leave as their agreement was with the dead guy not CC and Destro agrees not to get involved any more if he's given some reperations and the Baroness is released to him.

The real CC came back some time later and stuck everyone who messed with him - including Fred VII or whatever his name was, the fake CC - into the old freighter and sealed it up, effectively burying them alive. All of them die except Zartan and Billy.
The comic goes on for a bit, but start to lurch into far-too-silly territory. It seems to notice and occasionally tries to come back with attempted seriousness in the way of randomly offing some Joes, who actually stay dead; including some old-skoolers like Doc, Breaker and Quick-Kick and some of the newer guys who were kinda cool like Maverick and Sneek-Peek.
Eventually it just seemed to get wound up, and there's no big closing story-arc other than some sillyness with brainwashing. They just shut the base and go off to do whatever they did until Devil's Due brought them all back. The last issue has Snake-Eyes writing a letter to a kid basically telling him not to enlist in the army.

I am so buying those TPBs, btw. I didn't know you could get them. Nice one.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:32 am

Hush Job was definitely the one when its Snake Eyes that is rescued from the clutches of pesky Mindbender...

Cheers for the spoilers KingMob.

Certainly in the G1/G2 gap the Joe artwork seemed to have leapt up a lot (good old Wildman).

I remember after the G2 crossover the Joe comic then put in a reprint? Never a good sign.

Re: the civil war... How come Baroness was released to Destro? I thought her and Fred had a bit of a thing going?

I feel bad for Fred. How did the real CC survive?

One thing that annoyed me was that when Serpentor first came along he was the ultimate military genius, but by the end he's being outsmarted by a CC imposter.

So the comic petered out at the end did it ?(no G1 or G2 style escalation?) Shame.

Urge to buy TPBs rising...

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:11 am

Right, so it's definetly Silent Interlude I was on about earlier, then, not Hush Job.
Do you guys remember the UK-only stuff? I think I recall an interesting UK-only version of how Storm Shadow captures Scarlett, but I'm not sure...something about kidnapping her from Trafalgar Square in the rain and killing Trench. But that may just be an image from some weird thing in my head and not a funny-book.

Baroness was released to Destro because he stipulated it most strongly. And he was the one with a couple of hundred armoured vehicles, air superiority and several battalions of fresh combat troops raring to go; whereas all the Cobras and Joes were knackered. 'Sides everyone knows Destro and the Baroness are fated to be together.

Destro considered himself the winner of the Cobra civil war, I believe.

Fred VII was pretty cool, yeah.
Nice work to make a lot of the 'early-model' CGs turn out to be interesting characters despite all having the same face?

It was another Fred that saved CC; turns out he suspected Fred VII of dodginess and tailed him, digging up CC and giving emergency treatment. CC spent the intervening time resting up, creating a new fake ID, embezzling cash and contacting the loyal 'sleeper' Crimson Guardsmen, who he leads back to Cobra Island when he resumes power.

Serpentor was just a bad idea. The only bit of Serpy I recall liking is in his first or second issue, when that random Cobra troop gets shot and Serpy jumps in to bind his wound and call for a medic. And all the other cannon-fodder stare at him in shock/disbelief and then palpable veneration as he speechifies. If they'd kept up that kind of 'heroic' characterisation he might have made a very good bad guy. But he seemed to turn into an incompetent nutjob.
Cellular degredation? Mindbender poisoning his tea?

The comic just kinda stopped IIRC...the main plot at the time involved lots of brainwashing; Storm Shadow, Zartan, the Baroness and maybe Billy all end up being brainwashed into being full-on Cobra again. That gets left hanging for a stupid Roadblock comedy issue, and then the last issue when they just close the Pit.

Man, I am talking myself into reading all of GI Joe again here something rotten.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:01 pm

I used to enjoy GI-Joe in the back of the UK. things which stick out.

When the Joes get caught in Bolivia, and a man gets beaten to death, that was graphic.

Hush Job, where Storm shadow in 4 frames takes on loads of Ninjas, an amazing few scenes.

the finnal big battle on cobra island was great - but I dont know how it ends from issue 308 onwards.

oh the space battles were cool aswell.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:55 pm

veritech wrote: If Joes and TF's were ever to have crossed over in the cartoon world

*shudders*
...
*shudders again - this time more violently*
...
*kicks the cat*

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