Dream(wave) or nightmare?

bobaprime85 · Post by **bobaprime85** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:54 pm

Given that it has been a good deal of time since the Dreamwave implosion, I can't help but wonder what all of us will think of this particular time period when the Transformers celebrate their 30th or 40th anniversary. Will it simply be seen as a missed opportunity on a colossal scale, or maybe as a period when we were forced to undergo a deluge of mediocre writing and art? Or will we hardly even think of it at all, instead being pre-occupied with the fourth live-action movie and the new Furman-scripted G2 sequal along with G1 written by Warren Ellis and Energon by Grant Morrison?

Post by **Kaylee** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:11 pm

Imo its another chapter of TF history like most of the rest of it- a merchandise line for a popular toy concept driven by profits and greed (from all corners) with the odd spark of brilliance but mostly twaddle.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:07 am

I think we'll probably lump it in with OTFCC and RiD as nothing more than small blurbs in TF history.

Assuming we're not all killed during the return of Jesus in 2012.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:26 am

I think that this WILL be an important, memorable period because you may say the comic sucked or didn't suck, but at least for a few glorious years, there was a comic again.

TF has YET to prove that it can sustain sales through the years past the original G1 run. According to the sales numbers, the DW TF definetly could have survived aside from the problems with the company itself. But, we'll never truly know. All we have is a year of G2 and a few years of DW.

All I'm saying is maybe the movie doesn't do well, or maybe the comic is mishandled again, and TF is SERIOUSLY put on the backburner. Then we'll all look back to when there was a DW comic fondly.

Regardless, the coimc is where we (and when I say "we", I mean we the people of TransFans) place most of our love and trust in mythos. G1 cartoons were the ugly sister, and Armada/Energon/Cybertron has yet to establish itself as yet another anime drawn show with robots trying to sell toys.

Therefore, anytime there IS a comic, we should enjoy ourselves regardless to a certain extent.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:08 am

Hmmm, ideally I'd prefer to see it as wot Smooth said (although the rest of you can be killed by Jesus, I plan to be absorbed into the supercontext instead), but I fear that the slightly bizarre levels of adulation 'the DW event' created in certain aspects of our fandom will mean it will have its over-the-score defenders for some time. There will always be a small group (probably just one particular person in the end) who will claim that Pat Lee's artistic renderings are the stuff of the gods, created in a syngery of art styles that is beyond mere mortal comprehension and we don't have the ability or the right to believe otherwise as we're all racists or somesuch twoddle.

If it all does fail and we don't get ever get a decent TF comic again, I'm still not that sure there will be a big show of fond memories for DW. The demise of DW has been such a bitter pill for the fandom, esp with so many talented creators being shafted, that I'm not sure even our fractured and argumentative fandom can rustle up a noticeable extra amount of fondness for their works and input. We have a lotta haters in our crowd, add the people who just love to hate to the people who genuinely dislike DW work and there'll be a fair few people out to knock down those who try and claim DW as extra-special. And we'll end up with a whole 'nother thing to argue about for years.

I would perhaps guess that if people look back at anything to do with DW it'll be in connection to things like the introduction of the work of Don Figeroa to the whole fandom, and the other creators, who've built up a lot of goodwill and admiration with their work and attitudes. Perhaps for that and for introducing them to comics. I still can't believe how many people who read the DW TF comic didn't and hadn't actually read any other comics before.
Artwork is DW's only real contribution, in my mind. There's no way we'll remember their stories in anything like the way we remember the Marvel stuff ('The Dreamwave comic, yeah, I remember that, it was like the cartoon at first, then there was this time that like, there was this plot that didn't make any sense, and then this other plot that didn't make any sense, then this thing with Shockwave where like, he did it - but it still didn't make any sense, then, oh yeah, Prime wasn't in it for some reason and then there were almost real girl Transformers.'), but we'll still be going on about some of their art.

And for the odd chuckle in relation to the stories we'll all be telling about that time in 2006 when Pat Lee got lynched at the San Diego con when 200 transfans, assorted lawyers and people he'd screwed over for money charged the Marvel signing booth...

Post by **Best First** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:35 am

Shanti418 wrote: Therefore, anytime there IS a comic, we should enjoy ourselves regardless to a certain extent.

I think that's a mandate to allow people to sell us crap.

Things i will remember DW for:

MTMTE - good job by and large
Don
Guido
Raiz
Armada Sparkplug
Cybertronian Designs

Oh, and Pat and Roger Lee being collosal scum****s

and thats about it. In plot terms i don't think there is anything that surpasses the high points of the Marvel run (i enjoyed most of Simon's stuff but i think he was hamstrung in a lot of ways and he never really cut loose like he did at the end of G1 and in G2) and to me that enders the whole era, in terms of contributing to continuity, rather redundant.

So by and large a missed opportunity and little more. Shame that has led to so many being out of pocket.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:10 pm

Best First wrote:
Shanti418 wrote: Therefore, anytime there IS a comic, we should enjoy ourselves regardless to a certain extent.
I think that's a mandate to allow people to sell us crap.

I don't think that's nessecarily true. You want to talk about a mandate to sell people crap, let's talk about the Binaltech story, and their perfectly scripted reasons for there being a Yellow Tracks, and a Red Meister, and 45 slightly different Smokescreens. Let's talk about crappy molds and repaints and overpriced toys. Now THAT'S selling people crap. If I buy a crappy toy for $20 and 6 crappy TF comics for $20, I GUARENTEE you I will have more fun with those crappy comics then that crappy toy.
In regards to what King Mob said, people will always remember WW, if not for the stories, at least for the retro character designs.
I just think it all comes down to the future. If the new comic does well, DW will be seen possibly as the springboard on which TF came and stayed on the public conciousness, the akward and ultimately unsuccessful beginning of a new TF renaissance. If the new comic does poorly, DW will just be seen as the second to last fart.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:22 pm

Just wondering (flame me if you like), but, would there have still been the new upcoming movie if Dreamwave hadn't splattered TF all over the place and public consciousness in their (admittedly poor) comics? I certainly doubt that the toys and the dismal showing from the latest cartoons would have prompted Hollywood to go "Hmm... that might be worth investing in again."
Or was the movie being suggested before DW came on the scene? Please tell me I don't have to thank that Pat tw*t for the prospect of a new TF movie being considered.

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:24 pm

Let's wait and see if the movie is good before we decide where to apportion praise for its genesis

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:28 pm

So true. If it's really bad, we'll know Shockwave (ie. Dreamwave) did it.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:47 pm

I would think it would have to be more than that, because you don't see GI Joe movies or He Man movies being tossed around, and their comics and/or recent toylines have enjoyed at least as much success as TF, if not more.

Rather, I bet its more of a convergance of the recent super hero movies and the epiphany that, with CGI today, you could DO a live action TF movies, and chances are, people who don't even like TF will go see it because it has cool CGI giant robots. Of course, that's what they said about Emmerich's Godzilla, too.

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:40 pm

its probably only a matter of time before someone takes on a GIJoe Movie (never liked the franchise) and I was given to understand that Masters of the Universe died on its feet?

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:40 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:its probably only a matter of time before someone takes on a GIJoe Movie (never liked the franchise) and I was given to understand that Masters of the Universe died on its feet?

GI Joe? Crap! Crap! Crappity crap!
Masters of the Universe movie? I actually quite liked it. And the Godzilla one too. But then I was never too much of a fan of the original versions, so I just watched them on their own shakey merits and not as some rabid fan.

jboyler · Post by **jboyler** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:06 am

Lorenzo di Bonaventura (producer for tons of big-name movies, including TF) was the last one to be putting plans for a GI Joe movie in motion. For a little while it looked kind of serious, but the last anyone heard of it was in 2004, so it's probably dead in the water. But there are still rumors...

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808512049

Any subject matter can be made into something great if you approach it with a serious attitude and have confidence in your interpretation.

But getting back to this thread's subject, I agree that the DW era will be decided by the TF brand's further success or the lack thereof.

-J

Post by **Best First** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:10 pm

Shanti418 wrote:
Best First wrote:
Shanti418 wrote: Therefore, anytime there IS a comic, we should enjoy ourselves regardless to a certain extent.
I think that's a mandate to allow people to sell us crap.

I don't think that's nessecarily true. You want to talk about a mandate to sell people crap, let's talk about the Binaltech story, and their perfectly scripted reasons for there being a Yellow Tracks, and a Red Meister, and 45 slightly different Smokescreens. Let's talk about crappy molds and repaints and overpriced toys. Now THAT'S selling people crap. If I buy a crappy toy for $20 and 6 crappy TF comics for $20, I GUARENTEE you I will have more fun with those crappy comics then that crappy toy.

your banging on about toys seems rather irrelavant to my contention that saying that something is better than nothing iin terms of comics s a mandate to sell us crap.

i would rather have no comic than a crap one that further fragments an already fragmented continuity and fanbase.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:37 pm

i liked the gi-joe movie...

bobaprime85 · Post by **bobaprime85** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:33 pm

Best First wrote: i would rather have no comic than a crap one that further fragments an already fragmented continuity and fanbase.

Damn right. Better to have no new material and enjoy what we have rather than be subjected to poorly-written dreck with a lot of hype behind it.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:15 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:its probably only a matter of time before someone takes on a GIJoe Movie (never liked the franchise) and I was given to understand that Masters of the Universe died on its feet?

I saw some new toy designs but that was months ago, and the comic ended too, methinks...

By the way, we shouldn't give DW too much credit on this. Unlike GI Joe and MOTU, Transformers was active and producing series after series with a small gap between G1 and G2 in the US (not here in Europe). G2 had the G1 series cartoon and a new comic, then came Beast Wars, BM, RID, ARmada, Energon... TFs remained popular through these years, even with some rise and fall in the statistics. But MOTU died years ago and was pretty much resurrected... I'm not a Joe fan so someone else could explain their fate.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:12 am

Professor Smooth wrote:I think we'll probably lump it in with OTFCC and RiD as nothing more than small blurbs in TF history.

Assuming we're not all killed during the return of Jesus in 2012.

I loved that Sandman that starts with people in the 1300s saying, "The end of the world is soon, I know it..." and ends in the 1900s with the same thing.

South Park said that Mormons would all survive the end of the world.

I worry that DW was the TFs big chance to get back into the public consciousness. They were doing a good job of it, too, even if they did produce crappy comics. Now with it gone, it will be hard for the TFs to make yet another comeback.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:39 pm

Best First wrote:i would rather have no comic than a crap one that further fragments an already fragmented continuity and fanbase.

Well then, I guess this is where we disagree. Even though I definetly don't like the fragmentation, that's a process that started before DW and will continue after DW.

I would rather have a crappy comic than no comic. I would rather have a crappy movie than no movie. I would rather have a crappy cartoon than no cartoon. I would rather have Energon Optimus Prime than no Optimus Prime at all.

To me, I consider movies, comics, and even toy design certain forms of art. And like any art, some is good and some is bad.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:21 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:i liked the gi-joe movie...

EW!!! (wipes Gi Joe from bottom of shoe).

Of course, if you'd rather have no comic than a bad comic, no movie than a bad movie etc. with NO Transformers stuff out there at all to remind people it exists, it would soon be forgotten and NEVER get revived. At least while it's still around (even in a poor quality form) it's still in the public consciouness, and still has a chance to be revived in a better form.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:42 pm

But, on a selfish level, I just want more TF stuff. You know, if you like pizza, you'd rather have really crappy pizza than hamburgers, you know?

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:48 pm

Shanti418 wrote:But, on a selfish level, I just want more TF stuff. You know, if you like pizza, you'd rather have really crappy pizza than hamburgers, you know?

I totally agree - I hated the TF drought between the end of G2 and the start of BW. My wallet was quite happy about though.

Post by **Best First** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:19 pm

Autobloke wrote:
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:i liked the gi-joe movie...
EW!!! (wipes Gi Joe from bottom of shoe).

Of course, if you'd rather have no comic than a bad comic, no movie than a bad movie etc. with NO Transformers stuff out there at all to remind people it exists, it would soon be forgotten and NEVER get revived. At least while it's still around (even in a poor quality form) it's still in the public consciouness, and still has a chance to be revived in a better form.

or people will check it out,. think its crap and never be interested in it again....

hence DWs sales figures.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:43 pm

That's true. But I think it just makes me hope for a better replacement. I'm not going to abandon TF 'cos DW was crappy. I've been here more than twenty years - I think if anything was going to frighten me off, it would have been the Energon cartoon. But I'm still here.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:28 pm

So Best, when you say "DW is crap" in the G1 forum, do you mean just the G1 DW was crap? Or do you think WW, Armada, and Energon were also crap? Were they all equally crappy, or were there varying degrees of craptitude?

People thought DW was crap for varying reasons. Some didn't like Pat Lee's bloated art. Some didn't like the directions that the stories go. I think Hasbro thought that they could have used some more established characters to pull in the casual reader instead of throwing so many shout outs to the hardcore fans.

bobaprime85 · Post by **bobaprime85** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:14 pm

Shanti418 wrote: I think Hasbro thought that they could have used some more established characters to pull in the casual reader instead of throwing so many shout outs to the hardcore fans.

Yes, because the one thing a nostalgia property has to worry about is 'new readers'.

DW failed because it basically tried to do a violent version of the G1 cartoon, and gave about as much thought in regards to story cohesion and logic as the old cartoon writers.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:23 pm

bobaprime85 wrote:DW failed because it basically tried to do a violent version of the G1 cartoon, and gave about as much thought in regards to story cohesion and logic as the old cartoon writers.

But the Marvel TF comic was pretty violent on occasion, and that didn't impede it.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:22 pm

Autobloke wrote:
bobaprime85 wrote:DW failed because it basically tried to do a violent version of the G1 cartoon, and gave about as much thought in regards to story cohesion and logic as the old cartoon writers.
But the Marvel TF comic was pretty violent on occasion, and that didn't impede it.

Yeah, but Marvel had actual plot.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Sun May 01, 2005 5:40 pm

Indeed. DW was violent for the hell of it. The cartoon was only really ever violent during the movie. And perhaps when Springer got minced on planet Goo (or whatever it was called) during series 3.
Of course, Beast Wars decapitated TFs on a regular basis - but it was usually for comedy value.