Do sparks make sense?

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:51 pm

Well, do they? For one, they're in the chest. Does that mean that if a TF had his head blown up he'd still be alive? And if sparks can fly around unpowered in BM, how come Dinobot's one 'died' from injuries in BW? If Prime had the Matrix in his chest in TF: TM, was his spark in his abdomen? This could explain why a little injury to his side killed him, but when Magnus survived it was 'cos his torso was still intact. Yeah, I know - sparks came after the movie.
BW Megs cut a spark in half - surely that would've killed it. Or at least doubled Rampage's spark so there were two of him.
In Energon, a spark seems to survive in a big explosion (Demolisher) or being crushed (Wingdagger).
Surely a spark can be swapped with someone else's too. Imagine Prime and Bumblebee swapping: great fun!
There are loads of other spark-based gripes I have gnashed my teeth about in the past, but I can't think of them as I write this. I'm certain that you people have just as many complaints about sparks too.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:45 pm

Spark gripe? Don't have a one. Sparks are a great item for the world of TFs in my opinion. Makes sense quite frankly.

Not all Sparks are located in the chest area, merely the majority of the (frankly) few we've seen (in comparison to how many transformers there are). Recall Cheetor's Spark was in his hip area when he was a Transmetal II.

Likely it's a matter of the condition of the occupied body in regards to what happens when a Spark is released or pulled from the form. For example, Black Arachnia in BM. Her body was functional at the time of her Spark being extracted from it with a device designed for such. In Dinobot's case his physical form, to which his Spark was bound to, received too much damage to function so he died and the Spark departed thusly.

Likely Optimus Prime's Spark is in his chest, and merely protected at his core (lasercore) like seen with the opening of G1 Megs chest in BW. This is assuming indeed his Spark is located in his chest area which we've seen, in the case of one of Cheetor's incarnations, is not required.

Rampage had an indestructible Spark. What's not clear about that?

Never seen Energon so I cannot comment.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:00 am

IMO sparks worked in the BW cartoon, but needlessly complicate the TF mythology on the whole. I don't really like to think of G1 TFs having sparks, but its more or less canon now, and I can live with it (plus it's nice that someone tried to explore TF mortality more).

bobaprime85 · Post by **bobaprime85** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:09 am

spiderfrommars wrote:IMO sparks worked in the BW cartoon, but needlessly complicate the TF mythology on the whole.

How so? Granted, it creates some bits of continuity conflict with the old Marvel UK continuity, but it's not as if there hasn't been plenty of that.

I personally don't care for sparks one way or the other, but as they stand right now they provide a neat way of helping to explain the 'birth' of a Transformer along with just how the TFs are unique from one another.

Maybe. Possibly. Erm....biscuits?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:29 am

its tough one init?

I always think that the brain modual, probaly protected, has its own power supply, a bit like a motherboard in your computer. unless the brain modual/chip is destroyed the TF continues to exist, even if the rest of his body has been destroyed.

Another reason I think this is true is when we see Death Head execute Shockwave in LoU - his finnal move is to crush SW brain modual

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:37 am

Sparks, eh?

For:
Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armada, Energon, Cybertron (probably!)

Against:
Comic Powermaster Optimus Prime.

Conclusion:
None.

Snowcat · Post by **Snowcat** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:40 am

I always liked the idea, that TFs have a "soul" as such, that after all is what a spark is meant to be, the thing that gives them a personality, as opposed to them just being mindless drones.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:56 am

Rebis wrote:Sparks, eh?

For:
Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armada, Energon, Cybertron (probably!)

Against:
Comic Powermaster Optimus Prime.

Conclusion:
None.

Actually, you can just say that Prime's spark was absorbed onto that big disk, and it fit since Sparks aren't computer data, but some form of unknown energy.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:27 pm

Or that it went into the Matrix/AllSpark/whatever, and then was pulled back out when they created the new body and downloaded his personality into it...

Post by **Best First** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:05 pm

i have no real spark gripes.

its one of those things that i can't really be arsed to question - it doesn't make much difference to character dvelopment or key events in my fave continuity UK g1 and US G2, so i ain't v fussed.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:47 pm

The problem with making the soul (even a TF one) a tangible thing is that turns it from spiritual wonder to scientific phenomena. Once that happens we feel compelled to explain how it works; creating rules to govern it which sometimes either don't apply or at worst contradict each other.
I like the basic idea of a spark, but it really bogged down the BW storyline and made Primal into a fanatic of sorts. Sparks work so much better when just in the background, as in most of the BW stories. Once you try to rationalise or explain how they work (as with any spiritual/faith system) by conventional real-world standards, they either lose their original worth or are just a pain in the arse.
Even the first mentionings of the Matrix in the comic kept things vague (although WHY did it give Buster the power to control metallic objects?), which is how it should be kept in my opinion. It can be as 'mystic' as it likes, as long as it doesn't interfere with the character stories, cool battles and shape-changin' fun.
TFs are alive by some weird means, then they die - do we really need a pseudo-spiritual mechanism to explain it?
Also, if Rampage's spark is indestructible, how come Megs could cut it in half and it was later destroyed by Depthcharge? And what about Transmetal Dinobot's spark? By extension that would also be 'indestructible' wouldn't it?
Hmm... then again, Rampage was an experiment to replicate Starscream's immortal spark - perhaps the scientists hadn't got it quite right, and it just needed a bit more damage done to it to extinguish it.
Also, who the hell would want their spark in their leg! One hip operation and you could be killed.
And there was NO way Prime's mind (spark, data or otherwise) could have been stored on a 3.5 floppy - I can barely fit a decent picture on one, let alone a TF personality.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:25 pm

so you feel threatened by rational exploration of the why's and wherefores of existence?

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:43 pm

Best First wrote: so you feel threatened by rational exploration of the why's and wherefores of existence?

What's rational to one may not be to another. i.e. the cartoon.

Autobloke wrote:The problem with making the soul (even a TF one) a tangible thing is that turns it from spiritual wonder to scientific phenomena.

Both would operate on the laws of a working universe. What those laws may or may not be would be debatable though, and severely limited to a person or people's understanding and testing methods. Who's to say it's not an extra-dimensional energy operating in a form in this universe?

Autobloke wrote:Once that happens we feel compelled to explain how it works; creating rules to govern it which sometimes either don't apply or at worst contradict each other.

That's science for you. And given this is science fiction, what's the beef?

Autobloke wrote:I like the basic idea of a spark, but it really bogged down the BW storyline and made Primal into a fanatic of sorts.

Perhaps in BM, but not so much in BW in my opinion. Even then, I think it was a good direction for BM as it was.

Autobloke wrote:TFs are alive by some weird means...

Because they have a Spark. A form of energy that works much like the hypothetical soul. A life giving energy that defines their personality to a degree, but without the rigidness of not allowing change. G2 did a good job of showing what can happen when a Spark splits to the point it's essence becomes dilluted to a dangerous degree. Pardon, enough rambling...

Autobloke wrote:Also, if Rampage's spark is indestructible, how come Megs could cut it in half...

No contridiction there.

Autobloke wrote:...and it was later destroyed by Depthcharge?

With a shard of raw/pure energon driven directly through it. This would further show that while experiment with Rampage's Spark proved to produce an unheard of durable Spark, do to the following (as you said)...

Autobloke wrote:then again, Rampage was an experiment to replicate Starscream's immortal spark - perhaps the scientists hadn't got it quite right, and it just needed a bit more damage done to it to extinguish it.

...would explain it to a reasonable degree and it's always been what I thought from the first moment I saw that episode.

This is all without the possibility his Spark merely overloaded in some degree and phased out of physical existance temporarily, likely with how Starscream may have done for a time when he was destroyed by Galvatron.

Autobloke wrote:Also, who the hell would want their spark in their leg!

I doubt it was choice. Why are my balls directly between my legs giving the perfect target for a swift kick?

Autobloke wrote:And there was NO way Prime's mind (spark, data or otherwise) could have been stored on a 3.5 floppy - I can barely fit a decent picture on one, let alone a TF personality.

The comic rocks!

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:09 pm

I gave my theory about Prime: His spark was absorbed by the disk, and since sparks aren't computer data it makes sense it could fit there.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:09 pm

Not sure if a floppy has absorbant qualities.

But then it would also depend on when that human guy (was his name Ethan?) actually copied Prime's mind. If he did it while the big guy was still alive, wouldn't that have meant he was no longer in his body but a disc? If he did it just as he destroyed Prime, how could he be certain that he'd get him uncorrupted?
Then, if every time Prime was uploaded to a computer, wouldn't it have made more sense to leave him inthe mainframe and not the limiting confines of a disc.
I can still relate to the 'absorbtion' theory though. And yes, the comic does indeed 'rock'. It certainly is the more intelligent version of the TF universe.

Just noticed my mistake - I meant it bogged down BM not BW. Sorry 'bout that.

Also, just hopping over to the DW view of things: If energon was low, and sparks could indeed be safely removed from a TF with a tool specially designed for the job (as with Black Arachnia in BM, and in fact just about everybody in the show), instead of a 'Big Shutdown', why not just extract the sparks until the energy crisis is resolved?

I reckon sparks have their place in the TF lore, but perhaps not to such an extent that it overshadows everything else in the story.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:35 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:I gave my theory about Prime: His spark was absorbed by the disk, and since sparks aren't computer data it makes sense it could fit there.

Deus ex machina, eh?

Well, I guess that pretty much wraps up everything there is to know about Sparks, then.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:29 pm

Autobloke wrote:Not sure if a floppy has absorbant qualities.
But then it would also depend on when that human guy (was his name Ethan?) actually copied Prime's mind. If he did it while the big guy was still alive, wouldn't that have meant he was no longer in his body but a disc? If he did it just as he destroyed Prime, how could he be certain that he'd get him uncorrupted?
Then, if every time Prime was uploaded to a computer, wouldn't it have made more sense to leave him inthe mainframe and not the limiting confines of a disc.
I can still relate to the 'absorbtion' theory though. And yes, the comic does indeed 'rock'. It certainly is the more intelligent version of the TF universe.

Don't forget he was carrying the Matrix, which had precognitive powers. I put the fact that his mind fit on that floppy down to some wierd matrix-y effect.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:11 am

Bouncelot wrote: Don't forget he was carrying the Matrix, which had precognitive powers. I put the fact that his mind fit on that floppy down to some wierd matrix-y effect.

Was he? Oh yeah he was at that point wasn't he... and he got blown to bits... quite literally... and whilst top doc Ratchet was reassembling, he never thought "hmmm, hey what's this glowing disco ball of light doing in here?"

But you all seem to have discovered the fanfic i was going to get around to writing one day *honest*... that PMP never had a spark, that he was an abomination... a frankenstein's monster... that was why he was merging with HiQ, because he didn't have a spark... it wasn't Prime merging with HiQ... it was HiQ taking over "Prime"... that's why once the body of PMP was destroyed HiQ (quite literally) became Prime... whether or not The Last Autobot gave him a new spark when he rebuilt him as ActionMaster Prime, we'll never know, but with HiQ's own 'soul'... there wouldn't have been room for a spark too... surely?

*gets his coat*

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:35 pm

Nice idea! We have Starscream's funky spark, so why not other types of abnormalities?
That said, I thought the 'Hi-Q becomes Prime' a bit of a cop-out. If sparks had been in the TF canon at the time it might have made it a bit easier to accept: Prime's spark had somehow leaked into Hi-Q and left a residual personality - like the Scorpius clone on 'Farscape', although I suppose that explanation could also apply without the spark, with just Prime's mind leaking (messy).
I just wonder if the other Powermasters were at all concerned that they run the risk of being absorbed into their Nebulan pals on some level. Of course, it could have just been the influence if the Matrix on Prime and Hi-Q. No, scratch that - didn't they start feeling the effects of 'the change' during the 'Matrix Quest'? And what would have been the result if Prime hadn't died before it happened?
Someone should start a 'What If?' TF comic. What if the Matrix had killed Buster when Prime transferred it to him? That kind of thing. Perhaps the subject for a new forum topic - the 'What If?' thing, I mean.
Quickly going back to the influence of sparks, DW suggested that they were what gave a TF its individual abilities ie. Soundwave's mindreading power, Windcharger's magnetic power etc. They also said that's why Megatron or Prime are always really strong and hard to damage - it's 'cos of their spark and not their current physical form (although I guess that helps too). It also kinda explained the size-changing TFs as well. So at least DW gave us something clever along the way - and it doesn't need any hard science to explain, you can just take it on faith if you want.
That was the last decent concept attributed to sparks as far as I'm concerned.
Any other past TF happenings that can be explained away by possible spark influence?

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:08 pm

Scorponok/Zarak and Fort Max/Spike both sort of 'became one' with one another personality wise. Zarak was completely absorbed by Scorps until the very end, right? Why would it not make sense then for HighQ to become one with Prime?

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:39 pm

Yeah, but the problem is that out of all the Masters, Fort Max, Scorponock and Prime were the only ones that were affected and merged with their partners.

Of course, the msot logicla thing to say is that ALL the Masters were affected and merged, but they only focused on Fort Max, Scorpy and Prime.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:40 pm

Snowcat wrote:I always liked the idea, that TFs have a "soul" as such, that after all is what a spark is meant to be, the thing that gives them a personality, as opposed to them just being mindless drones.

I liked it also, but the problem for me is saying that a "spark" can be destroyed (an indestructible spark carries the intrinsic sense that the rest can be destroyed). If thats so what goes to the allspark? A "soul" couldnt be destroyed. Dinobot s death is a good example of coherence (his spark leaving his body "loss of spark"). But the whole energon can destroy sparks doesnt convince me too much.

Yeah, but the problem is that out of all the Masters, Fort Max, Scorponock and Prime were the only ones that were affected and merged with their partners.

Of course, the msot logicla thing to say is that ALL the Masters were affected and merged, but they only focused on Fort Max, Scorpy and Prime.

Or that, they were all killed before so there wasnt any problem at all.

In Energon, a spark seems to survive in a big explosion (Demolisher) or being crushed (Wingdagger).

In SL we see that Ironhide (Demolisher ) is really killed and only his spark remains which is "recycled" to build Irontread.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:21 pm

The term 'destroyed' refers to the Spark not being able to sustain itself in the physical universe anymore, and it goes back to the Allspark. it all depends on how you interpret what they meant by 'indestructible'. Remember that when discussing the Allspark you get spiritual, but when discussing Rampage they were trying to be scientific.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:15 pm

Ah, the old science/spiritual thing I mentioned before. Sparks seem to swing from one to the other without trying to get stuck in one camp. I suppose it's to keep them ambiguous, but it just annoys me.
Scorponok was indeed ****ed up by binary bonding wasn't he? Fort Max just had the unfortunate situation of being stuck with Spike, whose agenda to safeguard Buster was more a overpowering of individual will than any kind of 'merging'.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:06 pm

Autobloke wrote:Scorponok was indeed ****ed up by binary bonding wasn't he?

On the contrary, I think binary bonding with Zarak made Scorponok a better-balanced, more acessible character. What really ****ed him up was the whole "demi-God melting with acid breath" thing...

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:34 am

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Autobloke wrote:Scorponok was indeed ****ed up by binary bonding wasn't he?
On the contrary, I think binary bonding with Zarak made Scorponok a better-balanced, more acessible character. What really ****ed him up was the whole "demi-God melting with acid breath" thing...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:14 am

Autobloke wrote:Fort Max just had the unfortunate situation of being stuck with Spike, whose agenda to safeguard Buster was more a overpowering of individual will than any kind of 'merging'.

Fort Max wasn't really ever the same again after Galen died... maybe re-bonding isn't a good idea? Maybe a part of Max was lost when Galen died and so when the remnants rebonded with Spike, there was more of Spike than of Max so that's how Spike became the dominant mind?

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:23 pm

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why Fort Max killed Spike.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:37 pm

I thought Fort Max wanted Spike to escape, but Spike decided to stay. Wasn't it also Spike who gave Max the strength to beat Galvatron, when Max felt it was useless?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:01 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:I thought Fort Max wanted Spike to escape, but Spike decided to stay. Wasn't it also Spike who gave Max the strength to beat Galvatron, when Max felt it was useless?

Well, i don't think he gave him 'strength' as it were... it's just that Spike was resisting Max's ideas, causing an inner conflict that left them, um, distracted? It was only when they managed to 'co-operate' and actually think as one being that they managed to smack Galvatron about...
Spike had a rod up his arse because Max wanted to go out, stretch his legs and beat the **** out of a decepticon. Spike didn't really fancy doing that (because it wasn't his fight, blah blah blah) so their minds were in conflict.
Spike was just ****, as soon as they rescued Buster he gave up on Fort Max and let him rot in a cupboard, what sort of comittment is that?