Primus, Optimus Prime, and Moral Ambiguity

[veritech]

I have been slowly paging through the Titan reprints of Transformers G2. Optimus Prime's revelation and his actions following the revelation raise some interesting questions and perhaps some continuity conundrums.

In the G2 comic, good ol' Op Prime and his Autobots discover a whole new contingent of more highly (supposedly) advanced Cybertrodians/Decepticons that left Cybertron sometime after Optimus' cadre took a header into Earth. These Cybertronians are so advanced that they decided to leave their burnt out husk of a planet and conquer multiple plantes for terraforming purposes. Obviously Optimus cannot tolerate their mass genocide and decides that they must be stopped.

To make matters worse, it seems that the new Cybertronians were actually created from some artificial process as a result of other Transformers. Primus had nothing to do with the creation of the 2nd Generation and ultimately did not intend for this 2nd generation to exist. To add to the problem, Megatron steals Optimus' Creation Matrix (power of Primus) and uses it to animate his own 2nd Generation. Optimus reveals to Megatron that the 2nd Generation (Jihaxus' contingent) must be stopped and basically implies that their very existence is an evil and an affront to the true purpose of their creator. Therefore they must be annhilliated.

But longtime fans of US/UK Marvel will recognize that from the earliest issues of the ongoing series, Optimus used the Creation Matrix to replenish his ragtag forces. actually, a large percentage of his forces were created on Earth and could be considered "2nd Generation". The Decepticons also would theive the Matrix and create their own tf's.

Now, granted, Optimus' new creations were not "bud" off from himself like in G2, but they are still a second generation. If it was so immoral and anti-primus for a 2nd Generation to be created, then shouldn't Prime destroy the Arialbots and all of his creations?

And if Primus did not want new generation or evolution to occur in his transforming creations, then why did he bestow the creation matrix on the autobot leaders in the first place???????

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Shockwave told him to

[Kaylee]

Shockwave told him to

But did he, now that DW have gone bankrupt?

[Warcry]

But longtime fans of US/UK Marvel will recognize that from the earliest issues of the ongoing series, Optimus used the Creation Matrix to replenish his ragtag forces. actually, a large percentage of his forces were created on Earth and could be considered "2nd Generation". The Decepticons also would theive the Matrix and create their own tf's.

Reproduction via the Matrix imbues the new Transformer with a totally new spark taken from the near-infinite source that is the Matrix.

Reproduction via division, on the other hand, seems to give the child a spark made from energy split off from the spark of the parent. That would mean that each subsequent generation will have weaker ‘souls’ than the previous one (that’s what I’ve taken away from G2, anyway; various comments made by Prime and Megs suggest that the rampant reproduction had weakened the line and that the G2 ‘Cons were without morality because of it). The eventual end result is a species of soulless drones, existing for the sole purpose of conquest.

Primus knew that; that’s why he made the Transformers forget that they could reproduce this way, and that’s why he included the Swarm failsafe in their genetics. He knew that if the Transformers did dilute themselves, they would me just as much of a threat as Unicron.

[spiderfrommars]

What Warcry said.

Also, Primus deliberately instilled his essence into a 'genetic matrix' so that subsequent generations of Transformers could be created legitimately. The G2 'cons were illegitimate in that sense.

IMO the G2 'cons aren't neccessarily advanced either. Oh yes, there was that issue where they ambushed Megs' cons, but on the whole I view a lot of them as pretty much battle fodder, as the combined bots and cons were able to cut huge swathes of them down even though they were outnumbered. In my mind, not only is their sensibility watered down through continual budding, but perhaps certain skills and strengths are too.

[veritech]

Did Primus also realize that the swarm would also scourge the universe of all other techno/cyber/machine organisms?

Did Primus create all techno/cyber/machine organisms??

Why would Primus even give the TF's the ability to divide if this was not his "plan"?? Perhaps the same reason humans seem to have free will in the face of a soverign God/Creator. I see the seeds of an Armenian/Calvanist debate developing here . . . .

[Warcry]

Did Primus also realize that the swarm would also scourge the universe of all other techno/cyber/machine organisms?

I would say yes. Otherwise...well, he could have just created the Swarm directly and sent it after Unicron.

Did Primus create all techno/cyber/machine organisms??

Doubtful.

Why would Primus even give the TF's the ability to divide if this was not his "plan"?? Perhaps the same reason humans seem to have free will in the face of a soverign God/Creator. I see the seeds of an Armenian/Calvanist debate developing here . . . .

From what we see in G2, the division was a part of the first stage of TF evolution. It let the TF race grow at an accellerated rate [from what we've seen, division takes only a few minutes; building a new TF and imbuing him with the Matrix takes days or weeks] while their numbers were still small. After the race reached a certain size, the process wasn't safe anymore so Primus made them forget that they could do it.

All in all, it probably allowed the TF race to grow to Unicron-tackling proportions millions of years more quickly.

[ShadowSonic]

The Swarm wasn't part of Primus' plan, it was just as much an accident as the 2nd Generation. No where was it said they were part of his plan.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

so gods ARE fallible? *expects the spanish inquisition*

[Señior's Covenant]

so gods ARE fallible?

G...Galvatron?

Perhaps not fallible, just naive in their omnipotence?

*expects the spanish inquisition*

Heretic! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

[Optimus Prime Rib]

class.. I was hoping someone would catch that hehe.

[Best First]

The Swarm wasn't part of Primus' plan, it was just as much an accident as the 2nd Generation. No where was it said they were part of his plan.

i agree - one of the aspects of Furmans writing i always liked was that Primus, while clearly well intentioned, rather had a tendancy to **** things up by not fully considering the consequences of his actions. This of course ties nicely with Furmans assertion that he see's Primus and Unicron as "'gods' in the Roman/Greek pantheon sense of the term" rather than some all powerfull all seeing monotheistic entity.

I also think its a leap to say that Prime insists that the G2ers should be wiped out. However considering their origins it may have been pragmatic for him to assume that there wasn't goingt o be much in the way of discourse when it came to stop them.

[Predabot]

Altough Primus is judging from FUrmans writing and such not infallible (duh, had he been, there wouldn't have been any TF, then Unicron would have been defeated at the birth of current universe) are we sure that the Swarm wasn't partially planed? Whenever I read G2 I get the sence that it's the ultimate fail-safe device really, it can't exist without the process going overboard, and is only existant as long as there's those evil G2ers for it to devour, and stops when in contact with the matrix.

It devours them Transformers whole and gets rid of the excess rather nicely.

[BB Shockwave]

Yes, problem is, what was the Swarm doing before G2? Maybe as long as Primus lived, he kept the Swarm dormant?

I'm certain Primus knew about it (it was in the Matrix vision, and Primus=Matrix (sort of)) - Maybe he knew it was a dangerous creation, but as a God of Light, he didn't have the heart to destroy it, so just locked it away and threw away the key (like he did with the demons).

Speaking of demons, Furman once said in an interview he intended them to return if G1 wouldn't have been cut short.

[KingMob]

Speaking of demons, Furman once said in an interview he intended them to return if G1 wouldn't have been cut short.

I liked the Demons

[Guest]

Yes, problem is, what was the Swarm doing before G2? Maybe as long as Primus lived, he kept the Swarm dormant?

I'm certain Primus knew about it (it was in the Matrix vision, and Primus=Matrix (sort of)) - Maybe he knew it was a dangerous creation, but as a God of Light, he didn't have the heart to destroy it, so just locked it away and threw away the key (like he did with the demons).

I don't think so, after all, the Swarm didn't even exist when Primus went dormant, so why would he have any idea about the Swarm? And when he was awoken, he was busy dealing with the coming of Unicron and couldn't really spare much on sorting out any other problems. then he died, and couldn't do anything anymore.

No, I'd say the Swarm was completely independent of Primus and was probably just out'n'about doing its thing all that time. Remember, it grew on the budding process, so it would've started out quite small indeed. And the universe is a big place.

[Señior's Covenant]

Speaking of demons, Furman once said in an interview he intended them to return if G1 wouldn't have been cut short.

I liked the Demons

Me too. I wanted to hear more of them, namely origins. Of the non-canon speculation out there my favorite so far is the idea that initially (prior to the TFs) Primus created two races complete seperate in their reflection of his Spark. One was naive and completely good (nicknamed some places as "Angels") and the others of course the Demons. The Demons wiped out the Angels and that's why Primus imprisoned them and created the TFs we know. Another thing to paint Primus as "less than white."[/pointless speculation story]

[BB Shockwave]

Remember the mind-link Primus and Unicron share?

Unicron could have easily meddled with the first creations of Primus. Maybe that's why he choose to create only one TF later, and spawn the rest by budding, so that Uni cannot corrupt them.

[veritech]

So, in G2, is Primus dead? Wasn't he offed by Unicron (while inhabiting Xaaron) in Marvel US G1??

[Señior's Covenant]

In a physical-embodiment sense, yes I believe so. As well >the remaining?< energy of Primus was used via the reaquired Matrix at the end of the Marvel G1 run, by Powermaster Optimus Prime, to annihilate Unicron (if evil such as he can really be done away with that is). I believe that's why Cybertron began breaking up, up until the Last Autobot came in and restored the world. Or so I'm assuming from recollection.

[Predabot]

Not quite, but almost. The energy from the Matrix rained down on Cybertron after Unicrons destruction, and began to try to regenerate the "body" this was a rather violent process wich led the Autobots and Decepticons to believe that it was coming apart. Therefore they left. However, when Optimus/Hi-Q awakened the Last Autobot he "guided" the reformating-process seemingly focusing the energy and restored Cybertron. Theoretically, he also "recreated" the Matrix inside of Optimus Primes body when he was done, wich would explain why Prime has the Matrix in him in G2.

So no, Primus isn't quite dead, altough some of his contiousness was destroyed by Uni, his life-force survived. And since that life-force contains memories from him and all of the former Primes, one might say that he isn't quite dead.

[Metal Vendetta]

Would also explain the altered form of the matrix in G2, why Megs had to use that siphon-thing...

[Guest]

Remember the mind-link Primus and Unicron share?

Unicron could have easily meddled with the first creations of Primus. Maybe that's why he choose to create only one TF later, and spawn the rest by budding, so that Uni cannot corrupt them.

There's no evidence to suggest that the mind-link was anything more than just "they could sense each other", however there is abundant evidence (in the UK comic, at least) of Unicron's ability to keep lesser beings in thrall.