How effective is human weaponry against TFs?

SnapDragon · Post by **SnapDragon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:00 pm

in general? For example, at extreme ends of the scale, early on in the G1 comic Megs withstood a salvo from the US army containing everything short of nuclear weapons, whilst much later on, Cyclonus was outflown by F-14 pilots, whose missiles appeared to be a threat him. Comic only sources btw.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:18 pm

I hate stories where the TFs get bashed about by human weaponry (DW G1 Vol 1 - puttup!) Its one thing that really pissed me off about the recent TF/Joe crossovers too.

Look at G2 - TFs were unstoppable engines of destruction.

"They are the last line of defense against Unicron. They are the galaxy's last hope." Humans shouldn't be able to scratch 'em.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:21 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:I hate stories where the humans get bashed about by human weaponry

*preserves the Spidey mistake for posterity*

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:23 pm

******!

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:24 pm

@ Spidy!

Yeah we see megs withstand everything, whilst bumblebee is blown apart, superion is so so against the damage?

G2 they cant be stopped.

Cyc is tricked by the f-14 then spins around in mid air and wrecks the f-14. somthing impposible by our planes.

Which is half a TF ability not just weaponary but the command of the weapon they use, sometimes being themselves.

SnapDragon · Post by **SnapDragon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:30 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:I hate stories where the TFs get bashed about by human weaponry (DW G1 Vol 1 - puttup!)

The tanks thing was silly but the news article in V1 mentions that fighter jets were used in the all-out attack on the cons by Autobot and Decepticon coaliton. I can see a squadron of F-22s posing a threat to an average tf.

I'd be suprised if any humans ever spoke to the Bots again after the events of G2 actually.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:32 pm

Depends.
I'd like to think TFs were pretty much impervious, to within 'reasonable' limits.
Not sure I'd accept Beachcomber shrugging off a salvo from a battleship, for example.

I do detest the whole 'tank meet arm' sequence terribly. Mind you, I'm not particularly keen on anything that happens in that mini-series.

SnapDragon · Post by **SnapDragon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:34 pm

who's going to bring up the Neoknights first then?

doh! *slaps head*

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:35 pm

SnapDragon wrote:who's going to bring up the Neoknights first then?

I can't bring them up - I never swallowed the concept in the first place.

[/nyuck nyuck]

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:43 pm

Id like to bring up C Breaker.... as shes fit. look i said!

SnapDragon · Post by **SnapDragon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:44 pm

where does she keep her spare change though?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:31 pm

SnapDragon wrote:where does she keep her spare change though?

magnetised to her endoskeleton? probably in the inner thigh area...

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:46 pm

Hmmm, my take on the F14 scene was that in jet modes, a Transformer would have things like engines exposed... I always thought the missiles themselves might not do any serious damage, but Scourge and Cyc could do without being shot down at 2000 feet or whatever. Maybe I'm just biased because I love that sequence, though. HITCH! Ahem.

Of course, your other option is this: I can be punched in the face several times without dying. Doesn't mean I'm going to let someone do so. Megatron, however, is that macho **** going "Go on! Hit me in the stomach! That's all muscle!"

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:43 pm

"depends on the tf/human firepower/circumstances"

I cant see Bumblebee (G1 first 10 comic issues) saying to the american army:

"Shoot me as you will, you cant harm me"

He would become metal clips.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:48 pm

KingMob wrote:Depends.

Not sure I'd accept Beachcomber shrugging off a salvo from a battleship, for example.

Fair point.

Case by case basis obviously, but even the scene in Vol 3 issue 4 when Warpath and Bumper get outgunned by the EDC didn't wash IMO, even though they're Minibots.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:15 pm

It also didn't gel with what I perceive as Warpath's character. a) he's 90% gun b) he's stupid. He'd just have started shooting everyone. How far he would have got, I dunno...

Blacksword · Post by **Blacksword** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:06 pm

I don't see how size should affect durability to the extent that smaller TFs are weak enough to be taken out by humans. Unless you subscribe to teh idea that the major factor in TF durability is their power level (which I do think has a sizable effect but not the majority one). All TFs should be made out of more or less the same materials. If the material is strong enough for giant robots to be flung around liek rag dolls without coming apart at the seams it should deflect any conventional explosives. Nukes maybe not, especially mini-bots, but shells shouldn't do much imho.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:11 pm

Actually, when you think about it, it's not often that a TF is able to outright kill another one [not deactivation, I mean unequivically finish another one off], so it must be very hard for conventional weapons...

Post by **snarl** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:20 pm

TF's have weak points where they can be killed by 9mm bullets if you slide a bullet in pin point - Just above the ear I think...

Jeez, did I mention that the weak points are in the script?

Er, have no probs with TF's getting messed up if they have to deal with **** loads of heavy stuff, don't agree with that cock in the G2 crossover where the Throttlebot's leg got owned by a stinger missile tho.

I think it's down to armour. I Genuinely think humans could do serious damage if they found a big chink and tossed in a load of TNT. But you obviously aren't going to fit a tomahawk missile into an armour chink - but having said that, I think that could at least down TF, whilst not killing one.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:56 pm

Yeh, I think that bit in "I, Robot Master" hit the right balance... y'know, where that whole regiment was pouring it on, and the Autobots couldn't exactly ignore it, but it wasn't blowing them apart...

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:12 am

KingMob wrote:
Not sure I'd accept Beachcomber shrugging off a salvo from a battleship, for example.

Lord knows I could accept it... Oh yeah...

Wait..

No, not really.. cant back that up.

Anyway, remember when all the Decepticons were trapped on the oil rig because the Navy had them surrounded? The only one who was able to get through at first was Shockers. After he softened them up a bit they all High-Tailed it out of there.

Post by **Computron** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:21 am

It's real tough to answer this question. It'd be common sense to say that someone like Galvatron, Optimus, or even someone like Soundwave or Springer could basically run roughshod over human weaponry. Meanwhile we find it acceptable that the Bumblebees of the TF world probably wouldn't look so hot against the same human army.

But then we're faced with situations like Shockwave being perforated by Harpoons early in the TF run during his assault on the oil rig, and yet survive atmospheric re-entry and submurgence in the Atlantic a few dozen issues later.

I won't even touch the Dreamwave universe. I'm hanging on to hope that the two mini-bots surrendered cause it was teh Autobot thing to do...

In any case I try to resolve the issue as follows. I remember Besty saying a while back that he things most TF's aren't just heavily armored, but also use "personal forcefields", presumably drawn from Energon, that aid in their survival. Thus Optimus or Megatron can walk nearly unopposed through the battlefield with only the strongest of weapons stopping them, while Seaspray has to be a bit more careful.

Course we also see that Transformer melee combat is far deadlier than ranged attacks, (Time Wars, loads of Generation 2) so it suggests that your average TF's punching and kicking is far deadlier than a standard energy rifle.

In short I have no ******* clue.

Blacksword · Post by **Blacksword** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:41 am

Computron wrote:In short I have no ******* clue.

That's a keeper.

Anyhow, I still hold to the G2 view of things. Those burning skeletons in Tales of Earth part one and the casual stroll the Decepticons took through the US military in part 3 still bring a tear to my eye. If you're created to stop the ultimate threat to the entire universe you don't have trouble with a few modestly evolved primates. Furthermore, if the Decepticons can't crush a fairly primitive world like Earth then they aren't much of a galactic threat, let alone a universal one. The Autobots would have nothing to worry about, they could hide the Matrix under a rock an go for a vacation, while the Decepticons drop due to attrition.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:20 pm

Blacksword wrote:
Computron wrote:In short I have no ******* clue.
That's a keeper.

Anyhow, I still hold to the G2 view of things. Those burning skeletons in Tales of Earth part one and the casual stroll the Decepticons took through the US military in part 3 still bring a tear to my eye. If you're created to stop the ultimate threat to the entire universe you don't have trouble with a few modestly evolved primates. Furthermore, if the Decepticons can't crush a fairly primitive world like Earth then they aren't much of a galactic threat, let alone a universal one. The Autobots would have nothing to worry about, they could hide the Matrix under a rock an go for a vacation, while the Decepticons drop due to attrition.

But this goes back to situation. Humans have no chance against a whole squad of Deceps. but a lot of human weapons may be able to do signicant damage to a lone TF. Factors such as armour, shielding and the type of weaponry all play a part. Fact is with enough energy almost anything can be blown up (always fecks me off in X-Men when the sentinels/phalanx adapt to things like being blown up at an atomic level in the Generation Next storyline - rubbish). I doubt many TFs could survive a direct nuclear strike, but its all about getting a TF in a situation where humans can hurt them, and those sitiations are going to be few and far between. But that doesn't mean TF's are impervious to human tech.

welcome back btw.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:59 pm

snarl wrote:Er, have no probs with TF's getting messed up if they have to deal with **** loads of heavy stuff, don't agree with that cock in the G2 crossover where the Throttlebot's leg got owned by a stinger missile tho.

yeah, it's a shame, as that crossover started off on the right foot... an already ****** up Megatron (after surviving the Ark crash at the end of G1) takes on Cobra's fortress without much of a problem, now you can't tell me Cobra don't have some nasty mofo guns there...
In the end it's the prototype rail gun that stops him, but only because he want's to steal it (basically). He could've gone on to crush them all i'm sure...

unless he was on some sort of nucleon high after the crash - but then again, nucleon's been conviently forgotten by this point, so i guess not...

Sheba · Post by **Sheba** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:15 pm

In the cartoon, bullets were totally useless. A bunch of F-4 phantoms sent against the Jets in "Megatron's Master Plan" were hopelessly outclassed. Even Maverick and Goose prolly wouldn't stand a chance.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:51 pm

Cartoon laws ....

DevilScreamer · Post by **DevilScreamer** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:20 pm

Indeed. The way I see it, most TFs wouldn`t be too harmed by human weaponry, I guess it would be more cumulative damage than anything, like in the comics.

However, not sure that would apply to nukes, but even so, there`s no way it`d trash Superion....(damn Sarrachini).

SnapDragon · Post by **SnapDragon** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:20 pm

although the seekers are careful to take out the base cannons straight away.... obviously bricking it

Warcry · Post by **Warcry** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:06 am

The way I see it, nothing in human arsenals short of a full-on nuclear explosion could kill a TF easily, but shoot him a couple dozen times with cruise missiles and he might start feeling some ill effects.

TFs can outmaneuver, overpower and generally outclass anything humans throw against them. Only if they're drastically outnumbered would they have to worry. Even at 10:1 odds against them, seekers would be able to waltz through human jets. But bump that up to, say, 50:1 and the seekers would go down in flames.

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How effective is human weaponry against TFs?

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