How effective is human weaponry against TFs?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:55 am

as much as he is an annoying bastard at 50:1 odds i'd take Starscream over human jets.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:34 am

ok how about his?
if an autobot is in car mode, is he still his normal super-tough self or is he more on par with the car he is disguised as?

logically he would be still super-tough, however, on a couple of occaisions we've seen it to be the other... the Throttlebots being crushed in a car crush... Skids being rammed by that nonce with the sports car are two examples that spring to mind.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:21 pm

Skids being "knocked out" by having his windshield bashed in

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:28 pm

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:Skids being "knocked out" by having his windshield bashed in

oh god yeah, i'd forgotten about that nonsence...

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:42 am

Well the question was:

How effective is human weaponry against TFs?
can fleshies hurt tfs?

I know the majority of you simply hate the cartoon so I wont go there, you hate even more the Dw comic so I will also slip it.

We have evidence from the original marvel comic, that indeed, humans can hurt Tfs.

We see how in many occassions Cicuit Breaker simply trashes many autobot and decepticons (the question was if humans could harm tfs, not kill them). Maybe you can say that autobots didnt fight back (in many occasions) but nonetheless, she wasnt that "harmless" and defeated for, instance, Superion.

A Neo Knight (Hector Dialonzo) trashed 4 micromasters.

Bumblebee was blown by GI joe.

Hot Spot destroyed himself to avoid being captured (If he knew he had a chance of scaping he wouldnt do that, he was outnumbered)

The Technology G2 Megatron used was human (cobra) and with that he killed several tfs.

And finally Optimus Prime was blown to bits by Ethan Zachary (doesnt matter if he decided it). Not even Ratchet was able to repair him.

We have to examine that is not only the material tfs are made or the botion that they are Primus last Line of defense, but the ability they possess that makes them excellent warriors. Not all tfs are as strong or excellent fighters (as in any race) as, for example, Galvatron. We should note and remark individualities in both sides (cannon fodder, cannon fodder maker).

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:52 am

The Last Autobot wrote: Bumblebee was blown by GI joe.

Unless hes got braces, I dont think that will hurt Bumblebee.

Warcry · Post by **Warcry** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:53 am

Best First wrote:as much as he is an annoying bastard at 50:1 odds i'd take Starscream over human jets.

As skilled as Screamer is, I don't think he could evade all of the 200 or so long-range missiles they'd be throwing at him, the machine gun fire, and the likely kamakaze attempts. And while I'd credit his armour with being able to take quite a few direct hits before any internal damage would occur, even the slightest damage to his engines, wings or control surfaces would severely impare his maneuverability. When you're travelling as fast as fighter jets do, even the slightest damage could easily be lethal.

Post by **snarl** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:11 pm

Agreed, it would only be a matter of time before a bullet got him in his weak spot, just above the left ear.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:33 pm

Blacksword · Post by **Blacksword** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:36 pm

Warcry wrote:
Best First wrote:as much as he is an annoying bastard at 50:1 odds i'd take Starscream over human jets.
As skilled as Screamer is, I don't think he could evade all of the 200 or so long-range missiles they'd be throwing at him, the machine gun fire, and the likely kamakaze attempts. And while I'd credit his armour with being able to take quite a few direct hits before any internal damage would occur, even the slightest damage to his engines, wings or control surfaces would severely impare his maneuverability. When you're travelling as fast as fighter jets do, even the slightest damage could easily be lethal.

Couple problems with that, bullets with soft Earth metals would do squat, even if they are explosive rounds. It's pretty much agreedn that TFs are made from materials vastly harder than any Earth metal (they'd have to be to move as they do otherwise by just moving they'd come apart). A stell bullet isn't going to do anything to that, and neither is the small explosive charge that it could contain. Seecond anti-aircraft missiles don't have a huge explosive yield. They don't have to be, aircraft due to the high stresses they are under and all the explosive jet fuel they carry are rather fragile. Even if a few managed to hit Screamer it wouldn't do all that much. A Kamazee attack is possibly the only thing that might do some dmage, but good luck hitting a jet that has relexes infinitely faster than a human's, is faster and can pull unlimited gs. Plus at 50 jets, the pilots are going to be more focused on not crashing into each other than hitting Starscream, unless they are a long ways from him. And if they are against say Thundercraker the fight's over in seconds. A couple sonic booms and all fifty jets are metal flakes. The jets in G2 issue 6 were calm relaxed and enjoying themselves for a reason, they had nothing to fear.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:55 pm

Blacksword wrote:
Warcry wrote:
Best First wrote:as much as he is an annoying bastard at 50:1 odds i'd take Starscream over human jets.
As skilled as Screamer is, I don't think he could evade all of the 200 or so long-range missiles they'd be throwing at him, the machine gun fire, and the likely kamakaze attempts. And while I'd credit his armour with being able to take quite a few direct hits before any internal damage would occur, even the slightest damage to his engines, wings or control surfaces would severely impare his maneuverability. When you're travelling as fast as fighter jets do, even the slightest damage could easily be lethal.
Couple problems with that, bullets with soft Earth metals would do squat, even if they are explosive rounds. It's pretty much agreedn that TFs are made from materials vastly harder than any Earth metal (they'd have to be to move as they do otherwise by just moving they'd come apart). A stell bullet isn't going to do anything to that, and neither is the small explosive charge that it could contain. Seecond anti-aircraft missiles don't have a huge explosive yield. They don't have to be, aircraft due to the high stresses they are under and all the explosive jet fuel they carry are rather fragile. Even if a few managed to hit Screamer it wouldn't do all that much. A Kamazee attack is possibly the only thing that might do some dmage, but good luck hitting a jet that has relexes infinitely faster than a human's, is faster and can pull unlimited gs. Plus at 50 jets, the pilots are going to be more focused on not crashing into each other than hitting Starscream, unless they are a long ways from him. And if they are against say Thundercraker the fight's over in seconds. A couple sonic booms and all fifty jets are metal flakes. The jets in G2 issue 6 were calm relaxed and enjoying themselves for a reason, they had nothing to fear.

Err, acutally, if the spread was dense enough, there'd be no way to avoid it, Thundercracker or not. Turning 50 converging jets into metal flakes just gives you thousands of converging metal flakes. It'd only take one flake to settle on the jet to impair the aerodynamic flow around the aerofoil, and suddenly you've got a major drag effect.

Personally, I'd fire frozen chickens at 'em.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:37 am

the soni c boom takes place behind thundercracker - and at the point it hits the fleet of jets. TC is already a few miles away.

plus cant TC just Transform and move in robot mode if hes in trouble?

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:34 pm

Good point - and why didn't Cyc & Scourge transform when they were getting beaten by the human jets?

Stay in jet mode > fly into cliff > gimped
Transform > Targetmaster transforms > shoot down human jet > no worries

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:07 am

*cracks open a bottle of old topic* Ah yes....finely aged. Almost a year, I believe. Hey, if "Dancing Soundwave" is the big story, then apparently retro is in.

But I have reason to do so. I recently read the first DW Joe/TF Crossover (go vote in my poll!), and I have to say that the idea of TFs being hurt by humans always did kinda bother me a bit.

Although I must say, if you accept the hypothesis that in that series, all of the Transformers were rebuilt using mainly materials from Earth (which obviously would make no sense considering how they're found, but go with my here for a second), I DO find it within the realm of possibility that Starscream could have a weak point that could be fatal with a good spot, although it probably wouldn't be quick enough to save the Baroness from a quick SPLAT.

But back to the issue at hand....

Cyclonus: You know, maybe even though they weren't fatal, he just doesn't like getting hit my missles. Getting punched in the face isn't fatal, but if someone was trying to punch you in the face, you'd probably be disturbed.

Shockwave: Maybe Transformers have internal diagnostic programs to where in cases of severe trauma, they can get back online if they have enough time, whereas in a short amount of time, it may take less to actually knock them offline. Now for THIS opinion to work, you'd have to discount the whole Ark thing.

Seekers: Would totally waste any jet in existence.

You mostly just see the Autobots getting the piss kicked out of them, usually because they're so unwilling to protect themselves unless the person has a large purple symbol on them.

I thought the Neo Knights were handled well. That is to say, they were pretty ineffective (whoever thought of juxtaposing a "I have strong hands and feet" guy with a "I'm a 40 foot tall robot with large guns" should not be allowed to operate a car). Their best moment is undoubtedly the battle with Unicron, where the ones you thought might have a little effect and they in fact did.

Overall, I just think that WE couldn't beat a Transformer. But when it comes down to it, they're still machines. How would the Transformers do against a souped up EMP? Talk to me in 2050, and maybe we'd have the know how to mess with their internal systems.

PS - Yeah, that whole Skids thing was REALLY stupid.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:01 am

well Ciruict Breaker used to take Transformers down using her EMP and later on she also adopted silver foil.

Very much what the US military used in Iraq. they dropped a metal foil over power stations snd stuff and knocked out comunications and power or somthing.

so applying this might work against TF

What I want to know is why did an Electro pulse ever hurt a TF?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:32 pm

Because they're made of metal, and therefore conduct electricity?

C'mon, Mark. That was an easy one.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:04 pm

yes and being made of metal, and having I expect high voltage currents run through them, I ask again, why would it hurt?

Its like asking does electricity hurt a power plant?

Sorry, but I find it hard to belive a metal robot, that needs some sort of high voltage current to operate, can be hurt by the very stuff it probably runs on.

and, wouldnt they have at least some sort of fuse box to protect against power surges etc...

I dont buy it.

Warcry · Post by **Warcry** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:57 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:Sorry, but I find it hard to belive a metal robot, that needs some sort of high voltage current to operate, can be hurt by the very stuff it probably runs on.

Computers run on electricity too, but try shooting one of them with an electropulse cannon...

As long as the electricity being used to attack is enough to blow out internal fuses, diodes and whatnot, there's no reason why an electric beam can't hurt a TF. And even if it didn't directly harm the TF's internal systems, sufficient electricity would cause serious damage to the TF's outer armour...softening him up for more conventional weapons and maybe even arc-welding joints in place. The damage probably wouldn't be fatal, but it could very easily knock a TF out of a battle.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:18 am

you would think due to thier very nature, that one of them had a circuit breaker fitted... I mean my plug socket can resist lighting strikes so...

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:04 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:that one of them had a circuit breaker fitted

the arielbots and blaster & co did in that story with Runabout and Runamuck in it!

...i'll get my coat...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:44 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:you would think due to thier very nature, that one of them had a circuit breaker fitted... I mean my plug socket can resist lighting strikes so...

It's also a trio of thin wires coated first in rubber, then in more rubber, and finally, in a plastic shell.

TFs are metal, coated in air, coated in more metal, and then finally, a metal finish.

Conversely, a tree struck by lightning will be severely damaged in comparison with a church spire that is protected by a lightning conductor.

Its likely that a TF gets its 'power' through internal electrostatics, but a sufficiently powerful external shock would disrupt that.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:58 pm

Or you could just put a grenade in Starscream's eye.

Scraplet · Post by **Scraplet** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:57 pm

Warcry wrote: As long as the electricity being used to attack is enough to blow out internal fuses, diodes and whatnot, there's no reason why an electric beam can't hurt a TF.

That assumes that a TFs internal systems are similar to, and perhaps no more advanced than earth electronics. It would be nice think that a highly advanced mechanoid race was not dependent on copper-wire fuses to regulate internal electronics. If you think how complex the bio-electrical systems are in organic life, you would hope that TFs are similary complex in a non-biological way.

And as Rebis said, you can protect a church spire from a lightning strike. You would think the TFs would have gone a step or two further on that technological front.

Warcry · Post by **Warcry** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:51 am

Scraplet wrote:That assumes that a TFs internal systems are similar to, and perhaps no more advanced than earth electronics.

Well, yeah. If a TF's internal systems aren't analagous to Earth-based technology, it makes it a bit hard for us to discuss them.

Besides, when we saw TFs taking serious damage in the Marvel run, we'd often see circuit boards and wires hanging out of the wounds, so I'm fairly confident that TF tech is at least somewhat similar in design to Earth-based electronics.

And as Rebis said, you can protect a church spire from a lightning strike. You would think the TFs would have gone a step or two further on that technological front.

Not really the same thing, though. You can protect a church spire by grounding it. Since TFs are made entirely of metal, it's a lot harder to do that. Unless they have armour made from non-conductive metals, you wouldn't really be able to ground them; electricity would run right through their bodies and muck up any circuits that aren't sufficiently shielded.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:55 am

you would think if it were such an effective weapon, all TF weapons would be eletrical current based.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:19 pm

Tf technology can't be too different from ours in terms of basic component styles as Sparkplug Witwicky was able to fix Bumblebee in the third (I think) issue of the Marvel comic.
Also, the Constructicons, Jetfire, Omega Supreme and the Special Teams were constructed on Earth, which would suggest that they were probably constructed from terran materials.
And of course, the more complicated the technology, the more you can do to mess it up, because there's more that needs to work together properly.
How near are we to effective nanobot technology? That'd bugger up any big robot.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:28 pm

Autobloke wrote:...effective nanobot technology? That'd bugger up any big robot.

Now see, that's what I figured TFs were comprised of sort of. You know atoms>cells>some form of nanite (perhaps so small a new term is needed). It would make sense and be able to explain how Transformers can be altered without just a physical overhaul (the alteration of someone when they become a Prime, "aging" {no matter how hated by some} seem in some characters, the metamorphasis of some Decepticons into Unicronian servants, etc.). But eh, what do I know.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:42 pm

These days sci-fi and robots always have nanobots as part of their technology. I use nanos as part of a repair system in my book, and as part of the plot.
But do HUMANS presently have nanotechnolgy that would be useable as a weapon against TFs, or am I hoping we're more advanced than we actually are?

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:55 pm

Nanotech Weapons? Not that I'm aware of. I'm sure given the threat of total annihilation we might be able to cook something up, but right now our nanotechnology is fairly crude, though advancing all the time. I could be mistaken in our current progress though, don't get to hit up too many science & new tech. reports nowadays. Too busy posting ramblings at this one message board...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:22 pm

Warcry wrote:
And as Rebis said, you can protect a church spire from a lightning strike. You would think the TFs would have gone a step or two further on that technological front.
Not really the same thing, though. You can protect a church spire by grounding it. Since TFs are made entirely of metal, it's a lot harder to do that. Unless they have armour made from non-conductive metals, you wouldn't really be able to ground them; electricity would run right through their bodies and muck up any circuits that aren't sufficiently shielded.

Doesn't matter what they're made of, electrical current flows down the gradient (well, up actually, but that's just the electron flow), so any eletrically negative point in any object would 'draw' electricity 'towards' it, whether metal, non-metal or plasma. Just make sure all sensitive regions are sufficiently electrically positive (and/or increase eletrical resistivity), and everything's fine.

After all, the only difference between a metal and non-metal from an electrical point of view is the ratio of free electrons to nuclei. Build a circuit out of Lithium, put it in a Helium environment and watch how much it beats a copper-in-air arrangement. The other major difference? Cost. Simple as that.

I'd imagine, that far from being metallic, the TF skins are actually metal compounds, which would be much more resistant to electrical attack.