Techno-organic vs. pre-upgrade Transformer

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:15 pm

Were a transorganic TF, heck a group of them, to engage a full sized Transformer, would it merely be a variation of the "G.I.Jo/Transformers - The Grapestomp Saga" I'll never get to see, or would there be a fighting chance?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:18 pm

Well, a group of Micromasters managed to defeat a Pretender (with a little help from the weather, and gravity...), so I'd say that a group of Beasties could take on a G1 successfully, with only their own personality problems to hinder them.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:28 pm

By Beasties are we talking BW-Tfs or BM-Tfs? I have no doubt your average Beast Wars Era Transformers could hold their own, my Q was about the semi-organic animals of Beast Machines.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:46 pm

I think so, the bM Maximals are actually bigger than BW Maximals, closer to G1 in size.

They have their Oracle powers as well. That'd give them an ende. They beat the Vehicon Generals enough to show they can fight sentient guys.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:55 pm

BM-era TFs, eh? Then there's absolutely no contest.

Tankor was G1 size, wasn't he? They never seemed to have any trouble taking on the convoys of Tankor drone Vehicons, so why should a single TF be any trouble?

And, IMO, the BM Maximals weren't significantly larger than the BW Maximals, taking BM Megs as being the same size as BW Mega-Megs, which seems logical, given his aversion to allowing his spark to be vulnerable.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:07 pm

BM Primal was the same size as TMII Megs, who was around the same size as Optimal Optimus I think. The other Maximals (except Rattrap) were near in height to him.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:16 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:BM Primal was the same size as TMII Megs, who was around the same size as Optimal Optimus I think.

So Megs supersized the design when he assumed Optimal Optimus' form in the final episodes of BM, did he? Cos BM Primal sure looks dwarfed by him in the spark chamber.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:13 am

I had no idea folks felt Maximals & Predacons were anywhere near the size of Autobots & Decepticons. The biggest one I remember seeing was Optimal Optimus and he looked just a bit over half the size of Prime to me.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:20 pm

Rebis wrote:Tankor was G1 size, wasn't he? They never seemed to have any trouble taking on the convoys of Tankor drone Vehicons, so why should a single TF be any trouble?

The drone Vehicons were non-sentient though, weren't they? IIRC, the only ones with minds of their own were Tankor, Thrust, Jetstorm, Obsidian and Strika.

The Gen 1 robots all had the power of independant thought. Well, okay, maybe not ALL of them...

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:02 pm

I BM we know the Maximals and Vehicons are bigger than regualr Maximals and Predacons, but not how much bigger though.

Optimal Megatron was indeed much larger than regular Optimal Optimus, he was between Gestalt size adn City-Bot size WITHOUT the extra spark powers.

Optimal Optimus and TMII Megs were around the same size as G1 TFs. I mean Primal and Prime were face to face and their heads were the same size.

Beast Warriors are around 1/3 the size of G1 TFs, that extra huyge stuff seen in "The Agenda" was just for drama, the animators themselves sadi they made the G1ers extra huge on purpose and they really aren't that big.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:26 pm

I BM we know the Maximals and Vehicons are bigger than regualr Maximals and Predacons, but not how much bigger though.

How do we know that?

What about the pre-humans on Prehistoric Earth though? Cheetor was roughly the size of them. Wasn't the whole Upgrade ironically about down-sizing?

Primal and Prime’s heads were very close to the same size, wish I had a pic to reference, but while Optimal was huge post-Matrix he was nowhere near the stature of Prime.

I seriously thought, and still do, that Maximals and Predacons were just a slice larger than your average human.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:28 pm

Señior's Covenant wrote:I seriously thought, and still do, that Maximals and Predacons were just a slice larger than your average human.

Me too. I mean it was illustrated often enough across seasons 2 and 3.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:23 pm

Here's a proposal; what if the Full-sized Transformer was a G2 Decepticon Elite?

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:34 pm

Considering that the "Elite" under Jhiaxus died in hordes, and the only survivor was Rook, I'd say they weren't all that "Elite" except maybe Jhiaxus...

Stormwolf · Post by **Stormwolf** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:58 pm

Maximals and Predacons are just a variation on Micromasters, the only difference is that they have organic parts built in. The big drawbacks to this proces are a reduction in size and power.

Sky Hopper beating Shockwave was pretty lame IMO, it would have been allot smarter if Sky Hopper had used more explosives and a Pathblaster on Shockwave (A Pathblaster was used on Galvatron in Timewars).

I doubt that any techno organic TF could ever beat powerhouses and regular TF's like G1 Megatron, Cyclonus or Smokescreen in battle, the minibots and tape bots are a different story though.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:01 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:Considering that the "Elite" under Jhiaxus died in hordes...

Wasn't that because of the Swarm?

ShadowSonic wrote:...and the only survivor was Rook...

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:39 pm

So now everything is just a matter of who is bigger and who is smaller?

So because Brawn is short is a wimp?

I dont think height is the determinant factor in a battle. We should examine power, speed and the rest items in the tech specs.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:09 pm

Eh, not so much a mere issue of size, more a combination of items including size. Budda-Monkey barely held onto his life vs. Optimal Megs. What would be the chances of him against say G1 Megatron, Jhiaxus, or even a G1 Predacon. Hmm, BM Primal vs. Brawn...

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:10 pm

In the marvel comics, the Micromasters has superior strength to G1 full sized TFs, it was some kind of benefit to size-reduction.

And Considering that BW Rampage was able to blow up an entire mountain with his gun and G1 Megs couldn't, I'd say that their era differance inw eapons is significant.

Example: In the TF Movie, where G1 Megs was at his full power, his fusion cannon blast (Which killed G1 TFs) couldn't destroy lookout mountain, jsut a part of it. BW Rampage however was able to level that mountain with his weapons in "Code of Hero".

BW TFs have superior firepower. BW Megs having to charge his gun to full power was just a failsafe that it would kill Prime, he didn't really have to do it.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:46 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:In the marvel comics, the Micromasters has superior strength to G1 full sized TFs, it was some kind of benefit to size-reduction.

Hmm, I'll have to look into that when I get home. I'll gladly take your word for it for the time being. Who am I to doubt, eh? Though the only thing I recall at this time, at least in the introduction of the Micromasters issue, was them being downgraded in stature to minimize power consumption.

ShadowSonic wrote:And Considering that BW Rampage was able to blow up an entire mountain with his gun and G1 Megs couldn't, I'd say that their era differance in weapons is significant.

I always attributed that to not only Rampage being a more powerful Transformer of the time, but the severe enhancements received from interaction with Vok technology/energies. As to Megs, considering he wasn't intending to destroy the mountain there's a possible explanation. Just a thought, I'm sure there's other possibilities as well.

ShadowSonic wrote:Example: In the TF Movie, where G1 Megs was at his full power...

How do you know he was at full power?

ShadowSonic wrote:BW TFs have superior firepower. BW Megs having to charge his gun to full power was just a failsafe that it would kill Prime, he didn't really have to do it.

Both of those items are speculation.

And none of that above would help Trans-organics out in a brawl, right?

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:28 pm

I'm saying that Beast warriors have the power to fight G1 TFs, and since Technorganics are supposed to be stronger they should too.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:44 pm

Okay, but how & why are they stronger?

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:09 pm

Señior's Covenant wrote:Eh, not so much a mere issue of size, more a combination of items including size. Budda-Monkey barely held onto his life vs. Optimal Megs. What would be the chances of him against say G1 Megatron, Jhiaxus, or even a G1 Predacon. Hmm, BM Primal vs. Brawn...

And that was because of his size? or the fact that he had all of the resources of a planet and millions of sparks to draw power from?

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:24 pm

The Last Autobot wrote:
Señior's Covenant wrote:Eh, not so much a mere issue of size, more a combination of items including size. Budda-Monkey barely held onto his life vs. Optimal Megs. What would be the chances of him against say G1 Megatron, Jhiaxus, or even a G1 Predacon. Hmm, BM Primal vs. Brawn...
And that was because of his size? or the fact that he had all of the resources of a planet and millions of sparks to draw power from?

Again, not strictly a matter of size, but yes that is a contributing factor. Were it not for his resources, he'd be even less well-off than seen, yes?

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:33 pm

Señior's Covenant wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:
Señior's Covenant wrote:Eh, not so much a mere issue of size, more a combination of items including size. Budda-Monkey barely held onto his life vs. Optimal Megs. What would be the chances of him against say G1 Megatron, Jhiaxus, or even a G1 Predacon. Hmm, BM Primal vs. Brawn...
And that was because of his size? or the fact that he had all of the resources of a planet and millions of sparks to draw power from?
Again, not strictly a matter of size, but yes that is a contributing factor. Were it not for his resources, he'd be even less well-off than seen, yes?

Neither because being from BW or G1. My answer is that the outcome of such a battle would depend of which characters involved. And I wouldn be so sure of who the winner would in a battle between BW Megatron and any G1 character, and not because his power but all his abilities.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:35 pm

I was actually speaking of Megs final form in Beast Machines, and was using Optimus of the same show and timeframe in my example, but okay.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:10 pm

At the end of Beast Machines, the only one capable of fighting Megs then and winning was Unicron, and even then It may have been tough if Megs fully controlled the Allspark and became the next Primus...

...If Primal hadn't stopped him from absorbing the Allspark, I mean

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:34 pm

Funny thing is, that while we organic beings build robotic exo-skeletons to become stronger, the Tfs built organic outer shells and exo-skeletons for other purposes...

Imagine the advantages of a techno-organic ... regeneration, immunity to certain weapons, etc.

However, there is one serious disadvantage... Armor. An organic shell will never withstand as much damage as metal plating.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:32 pm

The size of the beast Warriors was more because of the modes they adopted in Earth than anything else. When we see the remnants of Cybetron population they are clearly much bigger than Silverbolt and Cheetor (all the huge Soundwave and Prowl lookalike, torsos and bodies around)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:08 am

The Last Autobot wrote:The size of the beast Warriors was more because of the modes they adopted in Earth than anything else.

No, that makes no sense. If that were true, Waspinator and Inferno would be the smallest Beast Warriors, given their alt modes, but they weren't. Rattrap was clearly shown to be several times larger than the Earth rat he followed around in the Predacon ship in one episode.

When we see the remnants of Cybetron population they are clearly much bigger than Silverbolt and Cheetor (all the huge Soundwave and Prowl lookalike, torsos and bodies around)

Perhaps not all the Cybertronians accepted a size reduction during the upgrade and instead preferred to remain as they were?

There's no evidence to suggest that the entire populace of the planet had their bodies dumped in that single place. It wouldn't have been practical, for a start.

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Techno-organic vs. pre-upgrade Transformer

Could a G1 TF be defeated by a Techno-organic?