ALL religions make me want to throw up...

[Yaya]

Just to be clear Yaya said that god doesnt require worship, which confuses me as to why you would worship somthing that doesnt need it.

I cannot understand why you need to worship somthing when worship doesnt do anything at all?

But worship does. For us (meaning people).

There is a difference between instant gratification (eating a candy bar), and fulfilling the purpose of your existence (worshipping the Creator).

Unless you are Willy Wonka, eating a chocolate bar is a means to instant, finite gratification only. Like most pleasures in life, it is fleeting. Even if someone experienced orgasm after orgasm their whole life, still, it is finite, and pleasure that will die with that person. It may make one feel good for a while, but does not give anywhere near the same level of lasting inner peace and inner strength and gratification that worship does, if one believes that God exist and that death on earth is not the end of existence.

Worship is for our own well being on many levels. Most importantly, those who recognize and remember the Creator fall into those who have won His pleasure. Assume for a moment there is a Creator who holds in His power our ultimate destination, our destiny. Then how else would someone define victory in life other than attaining His pleasure? Is attaining His pleasure the supreme success, or is living the happiest, carefree life we can live the supreme success? For the believer in God, it is the former, and for the nonbeliever in God, it is the latter. Again, two different mindsets, two completely different outlooks on life.

It is hard for one to explain to someone who doesn't even believe in a Creator the benefits of worship. To the one who does not believe in God, worship is a fruitless exercise, a waste of time on something that does not even exist. To the believer, it is the key to success, a fullfillment of the very purpose of being here for the limited time we are.

[Professor Smooth]

It is hard for one to explain to someone who doesn't even believe in a Creator the benefits of worship. To the one who does not believe in God, worship is a fruitless exercise, a waste of time on something that does not even exist. To the believer, it is the key to success, a fullfillment of the very purpose of being here for the limited time we are.

I have had a similar difficult time trying to get some of my friends to read comic books or watch certain movies. They're just not interested. Do I think that they'd like Marvel's Civil War? Of course I do. After all, I like Civil War. But it's not their thing.

See where I'm going with this?

[sprunkner]

I don't know what to say to all this. (But I'm going to say it anyway!) I spent my entire life, until the last few months, as a member of a faith that was extremely literalist and dogmatic. Mormonism really does have an explanation for everything... kind of like Yaya's attempts to answer everyone's questions.

What bothers me is that 'answers to everything' are always based on premises that that person or that faith have decided are true.

so essentially the answer, no matter how wordy it is, is always 'because I say so'.

People can point, for example, to the Bible as a source of truth, but they are the ones who decide to give it credence therefore all that is essentially being said is "this is the truth because I think it is'.

I know. The thing that really gets me is the way people talk about the Bible being "the word of God." Yet, when you get down to it, those people will ignore certain verses and emphasize others-- and the verses vary amazingly from Christian sect to Christian sect.

[quote="Best First']of course that begs the question why I bother questioning people who adopt such a mentality who will happily infer one illogical thing from another and then state it as if it were obvious fact (e.g. the existence of God must mean there is an afterlife, when one in no way logically infers the other) , but to be honest it fascinates and worries me in equal measure. Its a bit like picking a scab in some ways.[/quote]

Oh, I know. Right about when I started dropping out of Mormonism and radically redefinig my beliefs, I began reading everything I could about the Crusades. "Let's see... I'm fed up with religion... Hey, look at this! It's about the possibly most bloody, bizarre religious conflict in history! I must read it!"

It's much more fun when you don't have any ****ing clue why it works.

[quote-"Best First"]Although some things just irritate me, like statements that intimate that its 'remembering' God that makes us honest, trust worthy and accountable. Now I can be arrogant, moody, sarcastic and pedantic but I am all of those things above and it has nothing to do with worship of any god. Again we have someone saying this how things are because this is how I think things are.

For Space Monkey's sake Yaya even, despite telling me that no one should be judged because only God can know someone's inner workings, tells us why Impy feels the way he does. Its slightly mind numbing.

there's a quote from someone I can't remember that goes something along the lines of "I have found that people who are constantly seeking the truth are generally much more agreeable than those who think they have found it". I think there's something in that.[/quote]

Not to mention the Firefly-ism "Nothing's more dangerous than a man who's convinced he's got God on his side."

The idea that good attributes come from God... yea, I think it's completely ****ed to create divine beings that influence all our decisions. It's as though we create religions in order to excuse behavior.

I would like to hope, though I'm not sure I believe, that when we love, inspire, and create, we tap into some sort of divine well within ourselves. The more I meditate the more I feel as though there is greater power in my subconscious than I ever tapped into. I think this is similar to so many people's assertions that our conception of God is based, deeply, on our conception of ourselves. If God created us, then he would have given us not just some kind of receptor for Him, but a well of divinity within ourselves that is just as important. I can't believe in complete dependence. We don't ask our children to depend on us their entire lives.

In all honesty there are times I would love to believe in something, to have that sense of reassurance but that's never going to happen as long as the notions we have don't stand up to a few simple questions.

And if I am wrong, and it's in someone's plan that I or anyone I know and care about get AIDS and die horribly, then even if there is some higher purpose that I am not aware of, that person/thing remains a c*** for not filling me in on the detail or picking such a piss poor bunch of prophets that they can't even get the party line right. Come on people - branding.

I really don’t think there is much getting away from the fact that if God exists and has some kind of message, it is doing a pretty weak job of passing it on. Unless the message is “as a race bumble around disagreeing over what all this means, don’t question those in power too much and kill each other in large numbers over things that one would have thought really aren’t as important as a single individual life”.

This is the problem I kept running into within Mormonism. By the time I hit 22, I had already reached the conclusion that the only direction from God anyone could claim would be entirely personal, and based very strongly on that person's non-divine-derived notions of right and wrong. But I continued to belong to an organization that claimed organizational divine authority from God. Part of it was that I still believed, to some degree, in the visionary claims of the early Mormon prophets. Once I found out that those weren't what they were cracked up to be, either (ah, genuine history, so cold, so cold!) I still tried to stay in for family's sake. Then the Mormon Church started fighting against gay marriage, on the claims of divine inspiration.

All my experience with homosexuals had convinced me that they are gay for good. All my experience with marriage had taught me that you really have to be attracted to your partner A LOT. Put 'em together-- what the hell is wrong with gay marriage? So this organization was claiming divine authority to something that felt wrong, deep in my soul, to me. You could say God showed me that they were wrong. Or maybe I just understood myself better than I ever had. I don't believe it, therefore I don't have to follow it. Amazing how that took 26 years.

And on that note, I think I'll have a cup of coffee.

[Best First]

I’m just ignoring Yaya from now on, anyone who is happy dividing the world into two halves and stating what both aspire too on their behalf. has got arrogance issues that i just can’t compete with.

Besides, I think this is a far more interesting & constructive dialogue:

I know. The thing that really gets me is the way people talk about the Bible being "the word of God." Yet, when you get down to it, those people will ignore certain verses and emphasize others-- and the verses vary amazingly from Christian sect to Christian sect.

Absolutely. “This is the divine text! Although we ignore chapters 3 through 7”.

Not that its necessarily bad that standards and values change, but when people allow their standards and values to change whilst proclaiming an external objective source of truth I find this strangely hard to swallow.

“oh, yeah, God didn’t allow that 500 years ago but he’s cool with it now. I mean if we didn’t open up on Sunday it would piss off the shareholders right?”

It's much more fun when you don't have any ****ing clue why it works.

I think its more fun to accept that you will probably never know the answers to everything but to not let that stop you from trying to figure as much out as possible.

Not to mention the Firefly-ism "Nothing's more dangerous than a man who's convinced he's got God on his side."

I think history bears this one out. Which is one of the wellsprings for the suggestion that the entire concept is dangerous, because you cannot reason with that man.

It's as though we create religions in order to excuse behavior.

Not a statement I would disagree with.

I would like to hope, though I'm not sure I believe, that when we love, inspire, and create, we tap into some sort of divine well within ourselves. The more I meditate the more I feel as though there is greater power in my subconscious than I ever tapped into. I think this is similar to so many people's assertions that our conception of God is based, deeply, on our conception of ourselves. If God created us, then he would have given us not just some kind of receptor for Him, but a well of divinity within ourselves that is just as important. I can't believe in complete dependence. We don't ask our children to depend on us their entire lives.

I think what’s interesting here is, if you work along those lines, you remove the need for organisation – everyone basically becomes their own divine source and through mediums such as meditation come closer to the potential within themselves. Of course I think this can be as simple as just focussing more on what you really want out of life and what is genuinely important to you rather than more passively letting your short term desires carry you along.

But essentially along these lines religion becomes and individual self examination with a focus on realising your potential and self improving, so you lose the need for prescribed judgements or books that lots of people disagree about o the potential for groups to organise and abuse the notion of a divine mandate.

This to me is a concept of religion that I would have no issue with, because, as you infer, it’s a passing on of responsibility genuinely to the individual, rather than a suggestion of, “well, do what you like for a bit” but at the end of the day Daddy’s going to give you marks out of ten and what you get for tea for the rest of you existence depends on what you score.

So essentially you remove the notion of the creator from the picture, because whatever he or it was (Big Bang or Big Monkey) it has set you free. And I can’t help but think that logically therein lies far more responsibility and potential than with a God that lays down rules for you.

Then the Mormon Church started fighting against gay marriage, on the claims of divine inspiration.

I think anywhere the notion of one group of people telling another group of people that they can’t do something that in no way impacts the former has to be up to some pretty hefty scrutiny.

Amazing how that took 26 years.

Dude, it took me 27 years to realise bananas are quite nice. Don’t beat yourself up.

This is quite interesting. Well, so far anyway, I ain’t finished it:

http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/

[sprunkner]

I think that most good people involved in organized religion are focused on the personal side-- just that their culture, family, etc, is caught up inextricably with the religion. Missus Sprunk, for example, sticks with it despite agreeing with me on many things-- I think because she sees the social support as a good supplement to her personal communication with divinity. For her, the organizational bull**** has not quite reached breaking point, where it's not worth the company. For me, I like it much better out here on my own. No need to say I belong to something but don't believe it.

It's so rare to see anyone get into a religion without some aspect of family/friends/culture bringing them into it. As a missionary, we had a lot of luck with boyfriends or girlfriends or spouses of current members.

The problem is, of course, people tend to get tribal about everything. You belong to a church that is basically conservative. All your friends and relatives are members of this church and are relatively conservative. So when your tribe is threatened, you tend to defend the tribe and claim it's "God's will." It's a great justification. To be honest, I wonder how many people really think about the line between a personal divinity and the tribal, collective God of their group. It's quite telling that the Catholic Church's method of success was to claim that Woden or Bel was actually "Jesus in disguise." The tribal God is much more powerful, it seems, than the universal God.

And, on another note... I just used religious behavior as a kind of evidence for evolution. Tribal behavior. One for the Sprunk.

I don't have anything against religious people, except those who confuse their tribalism with their personal transcendence. An idiot shouting about what God wants alone is nothing... but the same idiot with a church behind him is a prophet.

[Metal Vendetta]

Personally I think worship is just a way of propagating religious memes. If you repeat Bible passages, prayers and "Jesus was the son of God" over and over again, you're bound to end up believing some of it. It's a way of reassuring people that, well, yes, when you look at these notions individually and objectively, they may not make much sense, some of them might even be a bit silly. But if a hundred people are repeating them all together in a communal worship, then those hundred people can't all be wrong, can they? Look, we all believe this stuff, it must be right. As the sprunk noted, very tribal behaviour, the sort of thing that goes back to Moses creating the ten coommandments and trying to unite the peoples of Israel under one god. Let's not forget, as I like to mention, that Moses was a mass-murdering genocidal bastard who had his men slaughter anyone who didn't agree with him. Then he had his men kill their wives and sons and ordered them to rape any virgins left over. That all sounds pretty tribal to me.

I know. The thing that really gets me is the way people talk about the Bible being "the word of God." Yet, when you get down to it, those people will ignore certain verses and emphasize others-- and the verses vary amazingly from Christian sect to Christian sect.

Absolutely. “This is the divine text! Although we ignore chapters 3 through 7”.

Reminded of Ned Flanders - "I believed in the Bible! Even the parts that contradict the other parts!"

[Best First]

where can i get the skinny on Moses's antics?

[Metal Vendetta]

where can i get the skinny on Moses's antics?

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba - the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army - the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds - who returned from the battle.

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

As Richard Dawkins pointed out, it's not that different to what our mate Adolf used to get up to, is it? Because the Midianites worshipped Ba'al Pe'or, Moses systematically exterminated them. Oh, sorry, "God commanded him" to do it.

[Bouncelot]

Just to be clear Yaya said that god doesnt require worship, which confuses me as to why you would worship somthing that doesnt need it.

Footballers and boy bands don't need worship, but that doesn't stop millions of football fans and teenaged girls worshipping them. Why would they worship something that doesn't need it?

I cannot understand why you need to worship somthing when worship doesnt do anything at all?

It might make u feel better but then so does choclate so im a bit lost on this aspect.

Both me and Yaya have pointed out some ways that we believe worship is good for us - and it's more than just making us feel better. But there's also the argument that, although God doesn't need our worship, He does deserve it.

[Bouncelot]

Besides, I think this is a far more interesting & constructive dialogue:

I know. The thing that really gets me is the way people talk about the Bible being "the word of God." Yet, when you get down to it, those people will ignore certain verses and emphasize others-- and the verses vary amazingly from Christian sect to Christian sect.]/quote]

Absolutely. “This is the divine text! Although we ignore chapters 3 through 7”.

Not that its necessarily bad that standards and values change, but when people allow their standards and values to change whilst proclaiming an external objective source of truth I find this strangely hard to swallow.

There is a difference between having an external objective source of truth and having a correct interpretation of it. Which is where the vast majority of differences between Christian groups come from. And, yes, Christians often do focus on passages that they find particularly meaningful or comforting and try to ignore those they find difficult or uncomfortable - that's human nature. And the Bible contains "retcons" of itself as well - for Christians, the New Testament dictates our interpretation of the Old Testament, which means that much of, for example, the Mosaic Law, is declared to be not directly applicable, which is where a lot of the "emphasise this bit, but ignore the other bit" comes from.

[Shanti418]

So, when we generally say "religion," are we talking about Western religion?

Sprunk's basically just espousing what that Mormon South Park episode said at the end, "Yeah, some of the things we believe in may seem weird, and maybe Joesph Smith didn't do all the things he said he did. But I've got a great life, and a great family, and a great set of morals, and I've got the Mormon church to thank for all that. It may not work for everyone, but it works for me. All I wanted to be was your friend, Stan. Up yours."

Or something to that effect.

Religion presents maxims for people to live by. It's only when you try and turn those maxims into dogma that things get ridiculous.

On a slightly related yet unrelated topic..........
Given that everyone here seems to be coming from distinctly different places on religion, what does everyone think of religion and how it relates to violence? In virtually all world religions, there are currents of pacifism and a warrior mentality running side by side. Yes, there's the Christian "turn the other cheek" vs. "The Crusades," but there's also Ahimsa vs. Bhagavad Gita in Hinduism, and even Buddhists have been violent under extreme circumstances. What do all of you, from your own religious (or non religious, or pseudo religious philosophy type thing if you're Smooth) viewpoint think about violence and peace in your own life?



PS - Don't let BF scare you off from posting Yaya. Like a famous man once said, "I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[sprunkner]

The only really scary thing about Besty is that he posts naked.

I have a hard time getting down on the Mormon Church because it was responsible for so many good things in my life: a missionary experience, me meeting and marrying my wife, me staying more or less out of serious trouble as a youngster.

But I hope everyone gets that I quit. And I quite because, no matter how much good was coming from it, I had to suffer through what seemed like an equal amount of bull****.

I've become extremely skeptical of any institutionalized good as a result. Worship usually takes place in an institution, though I suppose my meditation is a kind of worship, though it feels far more like self-affirmation. So worship-- what is the relation of personal worship to the institution?

Yaya? Is the personal worship what really counts? Is it as valid without the institution? Am I right to drop the institution when it doesn't help my personal worship? It feels like a normal, natural, choice, but it's been the most painful experience of my life thus far.

As for violence: I think we tend to always justify the means by the end. The violence in WWII was okay, as was the American Revolution. The Crusades were not. (I have to wonder if most Westerners would still have that attitude had the Crusaders not lost Palestine.) This is something that has always disturbed me-- an early Mormon leader, referring to polygamy, stated, "Whatever God commands is right, even if we do not understand it or it seems to go against His other commandments." So, according to that, equally violent and disturbing acts would be okay sometimes and not okay at other times. That's just scary. But we often create the same attitude, only we replace God with our own moral judgment.[/i]

[Professor Smooth]

Given that everyone here seems to be coming from distinctly different places on religion, what does everyone think of religion and how it relates to violence?

There is a huge difference between a religion condoning violence and advocating it.

Christianity, in many cases, does both.

Satanism NEVER advocacates violence; it does condone it in many cases.

[Shanti418]

So then, as we follow my questions and your response, what is YOUR relationship to violence? Are you a pacifist? Are you an aggressor? What is your standard for using violence? And how does your religious experince or lack therof color that stance?

[Metal Vendetta]

Religion makes me sick.

Violence makes me sick.

I'd advocate the latter, if it meant getting rid of the former.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Violence = religion. fact. everyone knows it.

[Professor Smooth]

So then, as we follow my questions and your response, what is YOUR relationship to violence? Are you a pacifist? Are you an aggressor? What is your standard for using violence? And how does your religious experince or lack therof color that stance?

I use violence only in cases of immediate self defense. Not because of my religion, but because life's just easier that way.

[Shanti418]

Violence = religion. fact. everyone knows it.

Tell that to Gandhi.

[Professor Smooth]

Violence = religion. fact. everyone knows it.

Tell that to Gandhi.

Sure. Oh wait, that's right. He was assassinated. The biggest advocate of non-violence that history has ever known was SHOT IN THE ******* HEAD.

[Best First]

[ But there's also the argument that, although God doesn't need our worship, He does deserve it.

or the more compelling arguement that given what he (were he to exist) lets happen and allows people to go through and what a massive mess he has created, he really doesn't.

all of which makes me want to reread Preacher...

Statements like violence = religion are so devoid of meaning i really don't understand why anyone would bother to post them.

Faith offers a justification for violence that is dangerous in that there is no grounds for ending the violence with discours, if someone of faith decides, because of that faith, that they need to hurt you there isn't goingto be any compromise, so iy essentially becomes you ro them.

which kind of bring us back to

t's as though we create religions in order to excuse behavior.

"I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

that or sit back and do nothing along with everyone else while our governments slowly erode these rights, but that's a different topic...

[Metal Vendetta]

Lister: ...They're just using religion as an excuse to be extremely crappy to each other!

Toaster: So what else is new?

[Shanti418]

Violence = religion. fact. everyone knows it.

Tell that to Gandhi.

Sure. Oh wait, that's right. He was assassinated. The biggest advocate of non-violence that history has ever known was SHOT IN THE ******* HEAD.

So if you're vegetarian and someone shoves meat down your throat, vegetarian = carnivore?

Basically, you're saying, "Well, Gandhi used a form of non violent resistance springing from his Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, and Christian studies to accomplish the emancipation of his people without firing a shot, but someone killed him, so basically his life was s*** and an entire lie"

[Bouncelot]

Given that everyone here seems to be coming from distinctly different places on religion, what does everyone think of religion and how it relates to violence?

There is a huge difference between a religion condoning violence and advocating it.

Christianity, in many cases, does both.

Only by preaching the exact opposite of what Christ taught. So I can't see how condoning or advocating violence can be seen as genuinely Christian except perhaps in the most extreme of circumstances (Like, for example, World War 2)

[Shanti418]

But it WAS Jesus's Dad who killed all those Egyptians to free the Jews, right? Swallowing them up in the sea and all that? Who cleared the land east of Jordan of Amorites for his people, according to Joshua 24.8-13? Who says in Deuteronomy 20:4 that "for the Lord your God is He that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you."?
The God of the Bible is a God who uses violence on behalf of justice.

So condoning? Definitely.

I'm just saying, don't act like Christianity is all flowers and candy. That's Buddhism, if anything.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

The Crusades were pretty violent times for christians tho...

[Best First]

That's one of the things that bugs me actually, whenever you pick an example like that someone will say 'oh, that's not real Christianity', but how often do you see the 'real Christians' (or Muslims, or Jews) actaually really taking these people to task? Actually mobilising and organising to firmly reclaim the name of their religion and take down those who they are happy to dismiss as misrepresenting them?

Where are all the 'real Christians' taking on the American right or the 'real Muslims' actively preaching against jihad and all that jizz?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Im surprised Muslim clerics dont come forth and say anyone killing themselves in the name of Jihad will not be going to see Allah.

Im pretty sure they could twist the rules to turn it against sucide bombers etc?

[saysadie]

Im pretty sure they could twist the rules to turn it against sucide bombers etc?

Only if they wanted to die...

[Professor Smooth]

I found this rather amusing. And, hopefully, profitable.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

[Best First]

Im pretty sure they could twist the rules to turn it against sucide bombers etc?

Only if they wanted to die...

such earthly fears kind of suggest a lack of faith and conviction though, don't they?