Character discussion : This Week 'Shockwave'

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:50 pm

A brief history of present day Grim's character (in UK terms):

Issue 28, Bob introduces him as a normal speaking badass.

Issues 29 to 65, Furman continues in this vein, making an intelligent Dino commander.

Issue 70: First sign of unrest - Bob has decided to go the way of the cartoon. US dialogue has to be rewritten/edited in the UK so he doesn't look stupid.

Issues 74 to 102: The Grimlock we know and love in various UK stories.

Issues 110 to 122: Grimlock is starting to act like a right tyrannical **** (under Bob). This time dialogue isn't edited in the UK as it isn't too OTT.

Issue 125 - 136: Normal Grimlock is back for the Ancient Relics and Grudge Match stories, thank god.

Issues 139 to 209: Grimlock is a dumb stupid nonce. UK editors have given up trying to rewrite his dialogue.

246 onwards : Furman's now writing US and UK continuities. At first he writes Grimlock as normal, but quickly settles on a compromise: the 'Me Grimlock' stupid speak but an intelligent military mind.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:57 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Issues 139 to 209: Grimlock is a dumb stupid nonce. UK editors have given up trying to rewrite his dialogue.

I remember that period quite fondly though. The Blaster and Goldbug stuff was quite entertaining, and it was ace how Grimlock just totally went off on one while the other Autobots stood around going "Er...shouldn't we, like, stop him, or something?"

It's kind of weird how that all blew over when Prime came back.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:26 am

I was kinda surprised Grimlock wasn't punished or reprimanded for his behavior, and even more surprised everyone accepted him as leader second time around (after Unicron) without even referencing his first tenure. That's poor writing on Furman's part, if he'd at least referenced "King Grimlock" and had everyone express their feelings and thoughts over Grimmers' as a leader the second time around it would've flowed better.

And then there's that theory going around that Grimlock was the one who sabotaged the Autobot shuttles, just to screw Prowl and make everyone see him as the hero...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:56 am

ShadowSonic wrote:I was kinda surprised Grimlock wasn't punished or reprimanded for his behavior

ShadowSonic wrote: and even more surprised everyone accepted him as leader second time around (after Unicron) without even referencing his first tenure. That's poor writing on Furman's part

And surely the first one was poor writing on Budiansky's?

I know you think he's underrated, but continuously knocking Furman won't make Budiansky any better you know.

Now, as to your first point - yes, it was a total cop out that Prime came back, Grimlock was happy as larry, the Ark was fixed, and the Steelhaven vanished. It almost feels like there's a missing issue (and it would've been better than the godawful Cosmic Carnival).

I don't think Grimlock was in danger of being reprimanded after he played his part in seeing off Ratbat's assault. And I think the inference in that issue was that he eventually agreed with Fort Max - Op was the true leader of the 'bots.

As for his second stint as leader, I don't blame Furman for not bringing up the King Grimlock fiasco, we were all trying hard enough to forget it. In the intervening time Grim had pretty much proved himself, and it led to some wonderful confrontations with Prowl (I think its fair to say Grim makes a better leader than Prowl).

I notice a Shockwave character thread has turned into a Grimlock one. It's been fun tho.

EDIT - And what does Grimlock think of all this inconsistency? Check out the third letter in the link:

http://www.transfans.net/popup.php?id=2078

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:40 am

spiderfrommars wrote:As for his second stint as leader, I don't blame Furman for not bringing up the King Grimlock fiasco, we were all trying hard enough to forget it. In the intervening time Grim had pretty much proved himself, and it led to some wonderful confrontations with Prowl (I think its fair to say Grim makes a better leader than Prowl).

Especially if you buy into the (now defunct) Virgin Guide's theory that the Earthforce stories happened during Matrix Quest.

I notice a Shockwave character thread has turned into a Grimlock one. It's been fun tho.

So let's bring it back on topic. By my count Shockwave was Decepticon leader about 3-4 times. Should he have reclaimed that title, or should someone else have stepped into the role?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:18 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Especially if you buy into the (now defunct) Virgin Guide's theory that the Earthforce stories happened during Matrix Quest.

I'm curious, can you elaborate on that theory?

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:17 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:
Especially if you buy into the (now defunct) Virgin Guide's theory that the Earthforce stories happened during Matrix Quest.
I'm curious, can you elaborate on that theory?

IIRC, the theory was that Matrix Quest took place over quite some time, that the Earthforce stories took place concurrent with the first couple of Matrix Quest stories. After the UK story "End of the Road" somehow most/all the revived Autobots got deactivated. Grimlock's annoyed at the Dinos being deactivated is a result of the end of the Earthforce era. Though the Virgin's guide is no longer online, I've found an archived version at the Way Back When Machine, and the details of the theory can be found here
(nb - it's right at the bottom of the page).

Some details of this theory fit better than the "they're between G1 and G2" theory, but not as well as "they're a divergent timeline".

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:04 pm

A good theory actually. However, Megatron was in Unspace at that time, and can't have been involved in Earthforce.

Unless they want to call that another Straxus clone.

Hmmm.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:08 pm

spiderfrommars wrote: I notice a Shockwave character thread has turned into a Grimlock one. It's been fun tho.

Well, it's been LONG over a week anyway, so we might as well switch characters.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:42 pm

Heh... and this is supposed to be about little old one-eyed me, yes?

So, a few points:

Shadowsonic wrote: I was kinda surprised Grimlock wasn't punished or reprimanded for his behavior, and even more surprised everyone accepted him as leader second time around (after Unicron) without even referencing his first tenure. That's poor writing on Furman's part, if he'd at least referenced "King Grimlock" and had everyone express their feelings and thoughts over Grimmers' as a leader the second time around it would've flowed better.

And then there's that theory going around that Grimlock was the one who sabotaged the Autobot shuttles, just to screw Prowl and make everyone see him as the hero...

I don't think so... not only was Prowl pretty unhappy about it, Blaster openly questions if GRimlock even cares about his troops (kinda makes sense seeing what his story with Grim was...)

AS for the theory, unlikely, as Bludgeon mentions they leave the Bots to rot there--- he was the one who sabotaged it.

Spiderfrommars wrote:As for his second stint as leader, I don't blame Furman for not bringing up the King Grimlock fiasco, we were all trying hard enough to forget it. In the intervening time Grim had pretty much proved himself, and it led to some wonderful confrontations with Prowl (I think its fair to say Grim makes a better leader than Prowl).

True, but I think they work the best together, even if they won't ever admit this.

See Earthforce for this. Prowl is a good sub-commander, but he lacks charisma to motivate the troops (this was also touched upon in Dark Ages). Grimbo is charismatic, you either like him or hate him, and he's a good leader - however, he's stubborn to the end. His 'me boss, you obey' attitude got the whole Bot army killed on KLo...

Also, if Grimmy wouldn't have slapped Fangry around, maybe some Cons would have remained in the alliance. I'm thinking on the likes of Soundwave.

Bouncelot wrote: Especially if you buy into the (now defunct) Virgin Guide's theory that the Earthforce stories happened during Matrix Quest.

I was never a fan of that idea... The after G1 stuff works better with some Retcon - I won't say more, wait for my coming episode guide for the G1 Marvel cartoon...

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:19 pm

About the Marvel Cartoon thing we were discussing, you aren't going to make it just a word for word adaption of all the US and UK stories, are you? I mean, I think that the old FOX X-Men and the new TMNT are doing the better idea: Have the stories be based off of the comics, but not a direct adaptation nor in super-strict chronological order. Remember there's some stuff in there that contradicted itself and wouldn't really fly today since it's not the 80s anymore.

We can also use some stuff from the cartoon that was good (it wasn't that bad.) like Alpha Trion, Vector Sigma/The Oracle, the Plasma chamber, maybe the Quintessons.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:15 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:We can also use some stuff from the cartoon that was good (it wasn't that bad.) like Alpha Trion, Vector Sigma/The Oracle, the Plasma chamber, maybe the Quintessons.

When you've got Xaaron, who needs Alpha Trion?

Besides, the Quints *did* appear in the comic...

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:02 am

Never cared much for Xaaron, seemd too bland and generic for me. At least Trion had the back-history with Prime and actually got out there and fought (in the first revolt when he was able).

And I meant, try and incorporate both the Quint and Primus origins (They turned the asteroid into Cybertron and made VS/The Oracle as an interface to mysterious energy in the adteroid's core [Primus]) not just the 'random aliens' thing Furman did.

Really, cartoon hate just becuase they didn't kill off characters and abided by 80s cartoon standards is rather silly...

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:33 am

ShadowSonic wrote:not just the 'random aliens' thing Furman did.

Thats all they were in the movie.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:57 am

Well I think Alpha Trion sucks, as do the quints in the cartoon, and all tha vector sigma rubbish. very cartoon'ish / for 5 year olds or somthing.

Xarron was a great character, far from bland, he has many angles to him, he has a lot of responsibilty on his shoulders. plus a sense of humour, well with Impactor he did.

Im not sure why a back history with Prime makes AT cool, personaly I dont care much for that idea, he was some lame plot device that existed to just tie up loose ends when Optimus couldnt find an answer. later they just balmed everything on the Quints

Not sure what this 'random alien' thing Furman did was either. the quints are another race, the whole notion that they made the TF is utter tosh. for logical reasons. the Universe is a big place, must everything in the cartoon be somehow connected?

As for hating the cartoon, simply because the characters were genric and stupid, the plot was always rubbish. the realism totaly stupid, its a war, no one dies, is a fair reason. the comic is deeper on so many levels, thanks to Mr Furman.

and more important it was a 20 min toy commercial.

everything about it is laughable. perhaps not series 1 animation which isnt bad. and the voices are good, in places.
I find it very hard to pick say 5 cartoon storys that are any good.
In comparison the comic has more then enough, Target 2006 or time wars, legacy etc.. pee on anything the cartoon ever produced from a great height.

Apart from Blaster, if it was Furman, I wouldnt give a toss about TF today.

hmm monday tommorow, another character of the week discussion comming from yours truly onits way...

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:58 am

Yeah, but in the cartoon they weren't. Heck the explanation of them being Cybertron's former masters actually explained their actions in TF:TM a lot better than "They're sadistic and crazy".

And there wasn't anything in the movie that inclined that Unicron was a Dark God, CYbertron was a former God, the Matrix was the container for his power, etc...

Disregarding everything in the cartoon isn't very nice, some aspects should be incorporated.

Also, for the voices I was thinking, and I know I'm probably signing my death warrant here...

Do you think maybe they shouldn't get any of the older VAs back, and just cast entirely new VAs for the chars? I mean, it's worked perfectly for the new TMNT. All the actors are virtual unknowns, but they do a great job.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:25 am

but they are just another race, they dont need an explenation, they dont need to be tied to the TF. thier actions in the movie I have no problem with.
I dont see what action in the movie required me to know they were connected to the TF (in cartoon form at least) was going to make things better?
I much prefer them as being simply just another race, it adds more substance to the viablity of the TF Universe being a broard and varied place.

+ the movie didnt need to explain the 'origin' theorys to its viewer, it was made for joe public. it didnt require that kind of depth, just varity.

Its like Junkions, they can Transform sure, but you dont need to anything other then they are made of junk. it doesnt matter if they were from cybertron or somthing long ago.

What about the TF on Lithone at the start? again, we only need know that Unicron can munch worlds.

Im a bit confused aswell, is there a new cartoon being made or somthing?

if I could have the VA from the movie that would great. but whinny megatron in the cartoon was bloody anoying.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:03 am

ShadowSonic wrote:
Really, cartoon hate just becuase they didn't kill off characters and abided by 80s cartoon standards is rather silly...

How about becaue it was largely infantlile trash with repetative inconsequential plots, little or no character development, stilted dialogue and, with perhaps one notable exception in the Golden Lagoon utterly failed to convey the realities of war?

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:09 am

Umm, well about the toon I'm planning, yes, it won't be a direct adaptation of the comics. Just wait what my ideas about Car Wash of Doom are!

Also some retconning is in order if we plan to use the Earthforce stuff, and theywere too good not to be used.

But the old cartoon? TMNT made subtle references, like Krang's cameo amongst the Utroms, but if you've watched every episode so far, you can tell those that WEREN'T adapted from the comic sucked... I'm thinking of the Garbageman (The Mechanic, anyone?). The Underworld stuff was good, but was dragged out too long.

Also the Shredder was turned into an Utrom for other reasons then simply cartoon nostalgia... In the MIrage comics the Shredder dies for good already in the first volume! The toon needed a more lasting villain and that can't be done if the Shredder is a simple human.

As for our case, what did the TF cartoon add to the TF mythos that was 'great'?

Femmebots? Arcee was enough already...

Devcon? Compare him to DH....

Alpha TRion? What was he good for, anyway? Why would an old TF have a beard? And in the comic we already have a council of Elders, with Xaaron as the last member alive. Maybe A3'll have a cameo amongst the councilmembers.

Quints? They are evil aliens, but do we really need them involved with Cybertron? Perhaps I'll play with a possible link to Unicron, as it was planned for the MOvie originally... But the Quint enslavement and the TFs forgetting everything afterwards is just plain cheesy to explain...

The cartoon had better character developement for some minor characters, like Sky Lynx, the Constructicons, Swindle, First Aid, etc. I plan to use their versions of these guys... but that's only cause they never had much characterisation in the comics to begin with.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:20 am

ShadowSonic wrote:Yeah, but in the cartoon they weren't. Heck the explanation of them being Cybertron's former masters actually explained their actions in TF:TM a lot better than "They're sadistic and crazy".

Why?

The Marvel Universe attempted to explain that they worked for Unicron, which pretty much makes their motives in the movie make more sense.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 am

Exactly... I think Furman wanted to do the same with them in TWW Vol.3, from what I gather out of the Ultimate Guide and his interviews.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:05 pm

I suppose that would work.

How about instead of the "Matrix Flame" (which appeared only in Target 2006 and never again) we use the Oracle to say that Prime was gone in the cartoon version of T:2006?

Hey, at least Alpha Trion showed he was a fighter who understood war ("Forever is a long time coming").

Have you ever watched the old FOX X-Men cartoon? They told original stories that weren't from the comics alongside comic adaptations, and they were great (Time Fugitives, the whole "Mr.Sinister in the savage land" subplot, One Man's Worth, etc).

For VAing, I'd get the Ocean Group and maybe some of the G1 actors (Let's face it, I can't see Greg Berger doing the comic version of Grimlock, nor can I see Soundwave's cartoon voice going with the comic version. We'd need voices for Ratbat, and Galvatron should have a different voice from Megatron to keep the secret a little better).

Some stories can be disregarded entirely (Furman's early stories between TF# 4 and TF#5, Roadjammers, the first part of Underbase, Monstercon from Mars, all but the last two parts of Matrix Quest)

We can even do stories in differant order (Like the TMNT cartoon is doing).

Also, get other guys than just Furman to write the episodes, get experienced writers like Greg Johnson, Bob and Larry back, heck even get Skir to do some (his BM episodes were pretty good). We'll never get anything new and exciting if we don't move on from just the same guy.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:21 pm

We could incorporate (a truncated version of) events from "State Games" and "And There Shall Come...A Leader" into the big introductory backstory stuff from US #1 as well.

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:28 pm

There have been so many differant takes on Prime's origin that it's insane. You have the WW origin, the UK origin, the cartoon origin.

Why not merge the cartoon and UK origins together and say he was one of Megatron's first victims rebuilt into the new form, and then went on to become a great soldier after that? It would justify Rodimus a little better and would show some character development for Prime (learning the hard way things aren't as they seem and that just becuase a guy is strong and stuff doesn't make him a good person).

We can merge lots of stuff together (like how the FOX X-Men merged Bishop's story with the "Days of future's past" story)

Post by **Best First** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:39 pm

ShadowSonic wrote:There have been so many differant takes on Prime's origin that it's insane. You have the WW origin, the UK origin, the cartoon origin.

Yes! Three! Lunacy!

ShadowSonic · Post by **ShadowSonic** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:21 pm

Uh, yeah. Sorry bout that, at least he isn't as bad as Hawkman...

Anyways, yeah let's just merge the origins together and say they happened at differant times in his life. The Orion Pax thing is how he got his body, then we have his "Underbase" role, then we have "There shall come a leader".

We replace the Matrix flame with the Oracle, we can merge Alpha Trion and Xaaron together (Alpha Trion had a more appealing visual and better backstory).

I have an idea, do you remeber Rodimus' student in "Aspects of Evil"? I heard a fan theory that he became BW Megatron. Why dont' we go with that?

Explain that Starsceam's durability/immortality was a side-effect of his Underbase energies. In fact I think Furman even used this.

What other storylines can we merge together?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 pm

Sorry, but I just think the Orion Pax origin version is just... naff. I mean, overnight he becomes Prime... nah.

UK version sees him rise through the ranks: medic, Elite Flying Corps commander, junior officer. An Autobot who gains thousands of years of experience to become who he is (in that underbase flashback he was pretty naive).

I think there's no contest to be honest.

Regarding Soundwave's voice - I still always pictured his comic self with the cartoon voice. Even though, practically, it probably wouldn't have worked.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:55 pm

Sorry, merging Xaaron and Trion strikes me as the kind of idea that will be garunteed to please nobody.

The idea of Xaaron being tainted with that beardy tw*t certainly doesn't float my boat.

Frankly the idea of merging the comic and the cartoon only benefits the cartoon, the comic doesn't need and of the cartoon stuff, whereas what the cartoon needed desperatly was the more thoughtfull approach to things we saw in the best comic stories.

So... Shockwave then?

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:05 pm

Best First wrote:So... Shockwave then?

OK, but you want to merge him with Xaaron, Alpha Trion or both?

Post by **Best First** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:13 pm

i was thinking we could merge him with his cartoon self then he could be brilliant and rubbish on alternate days.