What the H*LL?! Why is Dreamwave's site down?!! >:(

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:12 pm

apparently I am a UK transfan supplanted in the Midwest.. who knew?

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:16 pm

gforce99 wrote:Ok, thanks for gratiously answering my questions.
Is DW's version of the TFs generally hated in UK?
I ask this because the majority of other TF boards I visit aren't as...hmmm...clear in their dislike of TFs DW-verse.

I, for one, am not from the UK, so I am not best informed to comment. However I will say that, by and large, Mick/Lee/Sarracini's work is disliked here NOT because "it isn't Marvel continuity", but simply because it is very sub-standard storytelling. *

* Which constantly has me puzzled that so many fanboys fall over themselves to fawn over Mick/Lee/Sarracini's Transformers tales. My theory is that fans were so starved of Transformers stories for years that they blindly give 'thumbs up' to any proverbial crumbs thrown their way.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:28 pm

Optimus Prime Rib wrote:apparently I am a UK transfan supplanted in the Midwest.. who knew?

Same here. Nor did I know this was a regional hatred.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:41 pm

Dead Head wrote:
gforce99 wrote:Ok, thanks for gratiously answering my questions.
Is DW's version of the TFs generally hated in UK?
I ask this because the majority of other TF boards I visit aren't as...hmmm...clear in their dislike of TFs DW-verse.
I, for one, am not from the UK, so I am not best informed to comment. However I will say that, by and large, Mick/Lee/Sarracini's work is disliked here NOT because "it isn't Marvel continuity", but simply because it is very sub-standard storytelling. *

* Which constantly has me puzzled that so many fanboys fall over themselves to fawn over Mick/Lee/Sarracini's Transformers tales. My theory is that fans were so starved of Transformers stories for years that they blindly give 'thumbs up' to any proverbial crumbs thrown their way.

re: last point
I discovered yesterday that a staggering proportion of online fans who read the DW TF comics didn't and hadn't actually read very many other comics, ever. And if they had, it was often 1 title of genericrap.
I was genuinely surprised and disappointed by this. I knew (and also was surprised the first time I found out) a lot of people hadn't read the old Marvel stuff, or were just discovering it in recent months, but to find out that a bunch of peeps had never read any other comics except the DW ones....well, shockeroonie. (Yeah, him again.)

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:11 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
gforce99 wrote:Ok, thanks for gratiously answering my questions.
Is DW's version of the TFs generally hated in UK?
This is an international board. Just think of us as discerning.

gforce99 wrote:Help me out (aka convince me) what exactly did Mick do that was wrong?
Some of these reviews attempt to get to the bottom of it:

http://www.transfans.net/comics_guide.php?series=14

gforce99 wrote: (sorry if it seems I am n00b antagonist)
Not at all.

KingMob wrote: I discovered yesterday that a staggering proportion of online fans who read the DW TF comics didn't and hadn't actually read very many other comics, ever.

Makes sense. I guess most of us comic fans progressed onto other comics when our beloved TF comic ended (I know I was always on the lookout). Many cartoon fans more likely came to the medium for the first time in 2002.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:23 am

gforce99 wrote:Is DW's version of the TFs generally hated in UK?

We have far more TF material to compare it against, so there's probably a trend there. In the US, many TF fans had given up on the Marvel US Transformers comic by the time it's generally considered to peak (around issues #69-80.) In the UK (which reprinted the Marvel US material but also contributed about an equal amount of material in original stories) fans were kept more occupied.

Marvel UK includes the events of Marvel US. However, it's also a totally different mix of stories... Marvel US 'G1' on its own is often extremely shoddy, and it's only with recent reprints that US fans have seen any UK material. Thus, in the US, the animated series was a more common exposure to TF fiction (in the UK, the cartoon wasn't shown a great deal.)

Having read the UK/US material for 'G1'/G2 and seen the full cartoon run, my preferences run to a selection of UK-only material, the tail-end of the US 'G1' run and US G2. A few moments of that (notably US #75, US G2 #1, some specific UK stories) I'd rate as great moments in comics, not merely in TF media.

If you've only ever seen the cartoons and read mid-era Marvel US, DW is pretty good by comparison. If you've never read LoEG, Sandman, The Authority, Watchmen, Planetary, Stormwatch, Transmetropolitan, Hellboy, etc, DW might be considered to offer decent comics material.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:23 am

The only comic I read growing up was TF. I still have 1-80, and the full Headmasters/Movie serieses mint. I stopped reading comics afterwords, save for a year and a half fling with Spider Man.

I bought G2, and loved it, although I could never find 9-12 until they released the TPB.

The reason I'm back into TF now is because I saw Spider Man 2, and it piqued my interest in going into a comic shop and seeing what Spider Man was up to. When I went there, I was totally shocked and elated that there was a Transformers comic. I bought everything I could get my hands on. And even though they weren't the best stories in the world, they were there. It was a joy to be able to read a Transformer comic that I hadn't read before.

But I've never read the UK comics, save for a few I bought on eBay. Are they all available on TPB?

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:53 am

Currently, almost all are available. Few first UK-only issues were not released (and probably won't) and later, black & white 5-page strips will be released soon.

The most most important (well, bar one or two) are, though.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:31 am

Well they are still online on the old transfans page, yes?

I'm also not from the UK, but Hungary (middle-Europe). We had the Marvel US comic here, and I got hooked up on it. I never read any other comics back then (and I don't read many now), and Furman's mature TF stories, which actually told us an enjoyable tale AND giving us some morals, were the best fiction in my eyes.

Only in university, when I could get to browse the web (7 years ago) did I discover that there existed tons of other TF comics written by Furman! I still owe you Transfans big time for this!

I spent the years following downloading the comics (and taking them home via 1,44 floppies...

) and only discovered DW when TWW and Vol.1. was already out. I immediatly liked TWW, but even though I haven't read a new TF comic in years, I couldn't force myself to like Sarracini's work.
Mick started out OK, but by issue 2 of Vol.2., I lost all hope. And let's not forget Dr Shockfinger... or the man with golden Disco-Ball, whatever his name is that Mad Brick made my favourite Transformer into.

Oh, Dead Head, thumbs up for that list!

Post by **Best First** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:38 am

anti-DW?

More anti-pissing potential up the wall.

DW failed in the end becaue they produced poor comics. They never mastered the basics - art deferring to plot, clear story telling, strong editing, hiring actual talent. The fact that their biggest fans are people who don't actually have much idea about what really constitutes a decent comic spectacularly highlights why they have failed in their chosen market.

People's careers aside the more i think about it the morei am glad to see them gone.

Not particularly optimistic that whoever picks up the license will do a better job with it tho.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:40 am

Maybe if they have stayed with Image, this wouldn't have happened.

of course, there wass Pat Lee's ego...

gforce99 · Post by **gforce99** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:30 pm

Sorry, wasn't lumping everyone as British or anything. I just went thru the Staff page and it seemed many on this board were UK ppl.
And I was an original fanboy back in the 80s and I too collected all of the Marvel TF US comics. In fact when the US comic died, my family owned a comic store, so I think I was rather rounded on other material (from Epic's good Alien Legion to Valiant's Magnus, a sprinkiling of Image's CyberForce and of course DC's Superman and Marvel's Silver Surfer).

I think that perhaps the theory is correct that US fans were/are more starved than their UK counterparts for the lack of material. I always thought that TF UK fans were more organized in their fanfiction material. We tried hard here in the US, but we could never get it to the UK level.

I never proposed that Dreamwave was the best product ever. My simple arguement to many ppl's opinions here was that without DW material we would have nothing. I get the impression that many here prefer no material to DW's type material. I disagree. Forunately we live in free society, not under Megatron's tyrannical rule. Not yet any way.
I hope that some other company gets the license. I just hate to go thru another "this is another alternate reality of the TFs". But something is better than nothing.

Thanks for the comments guys.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:05 pm

gforce99 wrote:But something is better than nothing.

That strike me as a rather bizarre attitude.

I'd rather have nothing official than see my favourite characters mauled by inept creators like Lee. There's way better fan stuff out there.

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:42 pm

Excatly. It's not like there wasn't anything other that Dreamwave output.

I for one enjoyed Blacksword and Cliffjumper's fanfics much more than Mick's G1 series.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:01 pm

gforce99 wrote: Forunately we live in free society, not under Megatron's tyrannical rule. Not yet any way.

Megatron, Bush, what's the difference? (well, the fusion cannon maybe...)

gforce99 · Post by **gforce99** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Best First wrote:
gforce99 wrote:But something is better than nothing.
That strike me as a rather bizarre attitude.

I'd rather have nothing official than see my favourite characters mauled by inept creators like Lee. There's way better fan stuff out there.

Define for me what is official? Sure fanfiction is free, but there usually not as colorful as real comics. I mean when I read fanfiction that is terrible (I am sure I have written some), I just disregard it if I don't like it. I assume thats what you who don't like DW did with their material. Just disregard it.
I always figured there is no official Transformer material. Seriously, even at its height, how many times did the comic, box art bios and the cartoon completely disagree? All the time.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:45 pm

i guess you could say thiere are offical 'mediums'
cartoon/toys/comic - anything Hasbro officaly endorsed?

Post by **Best First** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:08 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:anything Hasbro officaly endorsed?

thats what i meant.

The fact that something is 'official' in no way suggets it will gel with previous cannon.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:03 pm

gforce99 wrote:My simple arguement to many ppl's opinions here was that without DW material we would have nothing. I get the impression that many here prefer no material to DW's type material.

To say that without DW nothing would available is inaccurate; there's been prose fiction by fans circulated since before the original series ended; that's been the case for well over ten years.

If you ever get chance, read Eugenesis by James Roberts. It's a 560 page novel tightly integrated into Marvel UK continuity and wipes the floor with most of Furman's work. Hopefully a second print will be available at some point.

The best TF fiction has often not been official material commissioned by or produced under license from Hasbro.

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:38 pm

You seem to forget that not all fans live in the UK..and for many of us there has been mostly a ten-year leap of nothingness. In sweden there wasn't even a Generation2 comic..

Never read any prose-fiction before ap. 2 years ago, and what I've read so far at the Hub hasn't always been stories who's depiction of Transformers is something that I, and everyone will always agree on. (And don't get me started on some of the fan-comics, guh!

Too think I thought Manny Galan was a bad artist..)

In fact, if some of the insane fan-ideas became canon I'd cry more than you when the fembots had been introduced.

Granted, some stuff is quite good, and enjoyable. But there ain't nothing, nothing, like a comic-book.

Post by **Denyer** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:36 pm

Predabot wrote:there ain't nothing, nothing, like a comic-book.

Something which—looking at Dreamwave and other companies—I'm often glad about.

Predabot wrote:for many of us there has been mostly a ten-year leap of nothingness.

You could say the same for the UK, with the exception of those people who bothered to get up and do something about it.

Predabot · Post by **Predabot** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:04 pm

AAAAAAAAaaarrrrrggghh!!! I just caught a glander of this rumour over at Seibertron...Emotions twisting at all directions..what to think..

"The following has been reported by ddp.lsw@wernet.net

Devil's Due will publish several Transformers projects, all based on
the G1 universe:

War Within III #1-3 will be collected in a special 72-page edition for
new readers with the remaining stories to follow monthly.

Beast Wars will be published after TWW3 ends.

Generation One will get a reboot when it returns this Summer. It's cast
of characters will be reduced to the Alternators and a few others here
& there. (i.e... FUTURE Alternator toys...)

Look for former GI Joe villians from Sgt Savage & GI Joe Extreme to
appear in the TFG1 comic as the two titles will share a universe once
again."

Linkie.
http://seibertron.com/news/view.php?id=4586

Guh, I think I've decided: suckie.

Ah well, a few pro's, Beast Wars and the like. But is it really necessary to release the 72 page special of AoW #1-3?

Dead Head · Post by **Dead Head** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:16 pm

Sounds like Hasbro stuck their oar in deep.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:17 pm

If they want to reprint AoW 1-3, then let 'em. It's their franchise now.

But G1 based solely on Alternators??????

GI Joe bad guys as regulars in G1 continuity??????

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:22 pm

Predabot wrote:War Within III #1-3 will be collected in a special 72-page edition for new readers...

Unnecessary. If they're going that far they might as well redo most of the artwork so I don't have to stare at Balloonformers.

Predabot wrote:...with the remaining stories to follow monthly.

Decent.

Predabot wrote:Beast Wars will be published after TWW3 ends.

Nice... ...hopefully.

Predabot wrote:Generation One will get a reboot when it returns this Summer. It's cast of characters will be reduced to the Alternators and a few others here & there. (i.e... FUTURE Alternator toys...)

Hmm. I'm of two minds on that one. Dreamwave G1 was so horrid I'd welcome it on one hand, on the other is bit of vomit as it's another slaggin' G1 continuity so yuck. And the "reduced cast" can eat me. Are fans ever going to just have a Transformers series that has "The Transformers" rather than "some Transformers" generally based off of ******* toy released groups?

Predabot wrote:Look for former GI Joe villians from Sgt Savage & GI Joe Extreme to appear in the TFG1 comic as the two titles will share a universe once again."

Never liked G.I.Joe/TF crossovers so don't care for that at all.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:41 pm

Yeah, I have no problem with the reboot of continuity, but you can't have a G1 storyline based solely off of Alternators.

IMO, that's going to drive off the casual fan. "Why isn't Grimlock a dinosaur? Where's Megatron?, etc."

The only people I could forsee buying an all Alt G1 title would be people such as ourselves.

I can see why Hasbro isn't as interested in funding an all G1 story, esp. now that the reissues have died down.

But IMO, it would make a lot more sense to make a comic like TFU rather than one based off the Alternators.

How do you think this affects the rumors of Alternator Jets in 2005? If they're going to have an Altnernator comic, they need more characters. And it would be a sign of the apocalypse to have something TF related that didn't involve Starscream in some way.

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:56 pm

Shanti418 wrote:And it would be a sign of the apocalypse to have something TF related that didn't involve Starscream in some way.

Yeah, funny how that seems to work.*

Just give it time. There will be an Alternator Megatron.* I can almost guarantee that much.**

*Also applies to characters with the names of/reappearances of past characters named/and at minimum mentions of Optimus, Megatron, and Unicron and sometimes Galvatron (at least here lately) in any and all TF Series of all Genres.

**If wrong guarantee does not apply. Note that should that be the case Mad Brick will retcon this conversation to say "Galvatron" rather than "Megatron" as if it's not one it is the other.***

***That's not a guarantee.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:02 pm

So do you think Megatron's toy will be along the line of a 19.99 Alt, or do you think it'll be a larger more expensive toy that bridges the gap between Alts and MP Op?

Post by **Computron** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:04 pm

Great.

Beast Wars worked because the reduced cast had tremendous characterization, terrific writing and a spectacular tie in to G1. Beast Machines then added a dark twist to the universe which I loved. (The idea of Megatron not only controlling Cybertron, but their souls as well was fantastic.)

In addition, since the cast was sequestered by space and time, there was no need to rigorously justify the smaller cast in a universe with thousands of Transformers.

The same can't be said of G1, unless they go ahead and have em crash on Pre-Historic Nebulos...which I have a feeling would defy physics and both suck and blow.

If they do a RiD style premise, where the Alternators exist in hiding, that still wouldn't explain why the cast is so tiny.

Dammit, I want to be able to open up a comic and see something like Legacy of Unicron where thousands of TF"s were featured. (A particular two page spread comes to mind), and excellent characterization tied it all together.

Yes?

[/Death's Head]

Señior's Covenant · Post by **Señior's Covenant** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:09 pm

I'd have to see the "Alternator Optimus" first (unless suddenly the 20th Anniversary Prime is considered as such). Should Prime's Alternator form be a bit more lavish and grand, then yes for Megatron as well. Should the 20th Anniversary Prime be considered his "Alternator" then I'd expect to see a tank Megatron of similar size eventually (guessing severely on that one). Honestly? I don't expect either, provided they are receiving alternators, to be very grand. If you're not going to make Grimlock a hulk of a Alt, why anyone else? This is all provided there IS [EDIT]NOT[/EDIT] an Alternator Optimus out there and I'm [EDIT]not[/EDIT] just behind on my info.