New cover gallery and info + detailed art preview!

[Denyer]

essentially scraped the legs in favour of somthing else

Because the legs as they stand (ho ho) wouldn't work according to basic physics. Pretty darned good rationale...

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Exaclty my point.

Nor does the rest of the torso - so if you gonna design one half of the body to 'work' - which cannot be proven in the slightest - then you should be prepared to apply your design concept to the the rest.
otherwise.

It looks like you just did one half, then gave up and stuffed some gundam legs one em. which is ever so more likely.

[Metal Vendetta]

It's a cross between the two, but the overall design owes more to Gundam than the Alternator. The only place I see the Alternator design is in the car "shell" wrapped around the (Gundam) feet.

[edit]And I did it first.
http://emvee.goldenfanjita.com/images/mv.jpg
http://emvee.goldenfanjita.com/images/gsfv.jpg
http://emvee.goldenfanjita.com/images/mvnew.jpg

[Denyer]

Nor does the rest of the torso - so if you gonna design one half of the body to 'work' - which cannot be proven in the slightest - then you should be prepared to apply your design concept to the the rest.

Checklist for Transformers:

- Must be able to move arms.
- Must be able to move legs.
- Must be able to transform.

Past designs have not been strong on the second of these. So, you could either change the relevant part... or, er, for some reason, you could throw out every part of the existing design and make new characters.

Gosh, that's a tough decision.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

its still got nothing to do with that.

and wasnt my point at all, thanks MV for clearing things up.

[Best First]

and wasnt my point at all, thanks MV for clearing things up.

er... your point was what exactly?

MV has shown some pictures of legs but your last post says the torso's are wrong.

The notion that they look like gundam mens that the artists has 'ripped something else off' and is 'lazy' is insulting nonsense. If you can't see the craft in that piece... sheesh.

[Predabot]

I think that what Impys trying to say is that the legs looks lightly more gundam than the rest of the body. Hence this affects the torso and other parts, making them stick out from the legs.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

and wasnt my point at all, thanks MV for clearing things up.

er... your point was what exactly?

MV has shown some pictures of legs but your last post says the torso's are wrong.

The notion that they look like gundam mens that the artists has 'ripped something else off' and is 'lazy' is insulting nonsense. If you can't see the craft in that piece... sheesh.

my fricking point is clear enough for other ppl.

Top half, normal TF design slightly redrawn to good modern standards.
bottom half, old design not redesigned (like top half was) but has just been given Gundam legs, and some car feet.

That is lazy, and its very plain to see the influence, and its plain to see they did not 're-design' the old robots (like the top half is) but just stuffed any old legs onit.

If you cant see that, then sheesh to you to.

oh, and by the way, its art, its not insulting for me to give me sodding opinion on a design or a picture. im not saying the art is 'crap' thats an insult. I feel the design has either lots its way or someones been watching to much Gundam or somthing like it. either way my critique of the design is valid enough for myself and other to see what im saying.

I would have prefered to have seen the same work applied to the top half of the robots continued through to the bottom and not relied on the influence of robots from another story arc.

[Denyer]

then you should be prepared to apply your design concept to the the rest.

He has applied the design concept to the rest—the concept is "change the bits that don't make sense" not draw Gundams.

[Best First]

That is lazy

remember thsi bit...

and its very plain to see the influence, and its plain to see they did not 're-design' the old robots (like the top half is) but just stuffed any old legs onit.

If you cant see that, then sheesh to you to.

i'm not saying the legs don't have an air of gundam (you really should start reading posts before disagreeing with them) , i am saying that this does not infer that the artist just went 'oh, bored now, ill just copy something' - EJ's comment in this topic suggests he had a good reason for going with a design that is simlar to Gundam - as has been stated he is trying for a realistic design and Gundam legs are feasable in terms of their design.

oh, and by the way, its art, its not insulting for me to give me sodding opinion on a design or a picture.

i'm well aware art is subjective, i'm also aware certain objective criteria can be applied to comic art - niether of these facts alter the fact that calling the artist lazy and saying he has just slapped some old legs on it are both insults for which you have no real basis.

im not saying the art is 'crap' thats an insult.

as is saying the redesign is lazy because you don't like it.

I feel the design has either lots its way or someones been watching to much Gundam or somthing like it. either way my critique of the design is valid enough for myself

i don't have an issue with you not liking the design, i have an issue witrh your baseless inference that this makes the creator lazy.

and other to see what im saying.

i love when people do this. brilliant.

I would have prefered to have seen the same work applied to the top half of the robots continued through to the bottom and not relied on the influence of robots from another story arc.

again, the inference that the artist has 'relied' on another franchise cannot be drwn from the art. He cuold equally have chosen it for a reason (as seems more apparent based on teh artists own comments), or it coudl even be largely coincidence. Yet you needlessly (once again) go beyond constructive criticism and start insulting the artist, who just so we are clear is also a member of this baord and subject to the same protection by the rules as everyone else. Would you crtique a piece in the fan forum with comments such as 'lazy'?

Learn to couch your opinions in less insulting terms, you might find more people listen to them.

[Denyer]

Would you crtique a piece in the fan forum with comments such as 'lazy'?

Sure. Although where the artist was doing anything other than, say, not bothering to use a ruler for straight lines, I'd be talking out of my ass.

I don't know where people get the idea that taking inspiration from the styling on other things is laziness; a large part of art (as well as mechanical design) is composition—finding stuff that works and applying it. The legs here have the joints required to fold up as part of a transformation (essentially by having two joints around the knee rather than one, and a measure of separation for those joints.) There are a limited number of ways to overlay that joint structure, and anything you do to it is likely to look 'Gundam-ish'.

[E.J.Su]

Normally I don't like to defend my work, nor do I have the patience to explain my thought process to people who already decided not to like them, but this is the first TF site that actually offers me an interview, and members are generally nice. I somewhat feel like to explain a few things.

I based a lot of robotic design on human anatomy, as you can probably tell from the sketch sections in Issue#0.

I am not denying I've always been a Gundam fan, eventhough less so in the recent years. To tell you the truth, I can't even tell most of the newer Gundams apart.

If you would take a look at the drawing I did real quick, you can see that most of my robotic parts are exaggerated human anatomy, with a few separate pieces to help along with the transformation. My designs are more organic than TF fans are used to for sure, but they are based on human anatomy, which I believe, so was Gundam designs.
I think the only thing that you could argue being Gundam is Ironhide's feet, which I do admit it does look like Gundam. There are some Alternators also have similiar feet, except not as organic, thus doesn't look as much like Gundam.

I am sorry that some people don't like it, I am just aiming for functioning "human" that made out of heavy metals.

[Best First]

Altho i would agree there is little point trying to explain yourself to people who have already locked onto certain conclusions based on a paucity of evidence, its nice from my perspective to see further insight into what you are aiming for, and IMO achieving.

Also we have a new site motto: "members are generally nice"

[spiderfrommars]

I am just aiming for functioning "human" that made out of heavy metals.

Which is probably why I dig it so much.

[Hound]

I think it looks really encouraging. There is a lot of detail in that scene, but also a lot of character (something Pat Lee could learn).

I look forward to seeing more.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I never said I do not like your work.

A. I feel it resembles a manga style gundam robot leg. thats an observation, its not an insult on your work.
B. My reason for saying this was whilst I could see how the top half of the robot had been 'updated' I felt the bottom half has lost its previous design and been replaced with somthing that resembled a design from some place else.

Ive said it many times, I dont think theres anything wrong with the artwork, I like it, I was more interested in the merging of two designs.

sorry if that caused anyone offence.

[Legion]

Also we have a new site motto: "members are generally nice"

Excellent! The propaganda works! Keep it up!

[Dead Head]

maybe what im looking at is;

the top half of thier bodys is old skool design + some bevels, and good draft work, where as the bottom half, thier legs, is based on somthing that wasnt there before. Now I can understand taking an old design and sprucing it up, but to me its like some has done this.

Heh. My thoughts exactly.

I HATE the Autobot's newly redesigned/'gundam'-ed lower legs - too long (the lower legs), and too obviously trying to parallel, on the outside of the Transformers' legs, tendons/ligaments and so forth found in us hoomans. A slight toning down in these regards would significantly improve things I'd say.

Maybe E.J. can stick to drawing close-in panels where we don't see the bottom legs, because their top halves are very well drawn and designed! Winkysmile.

[Denyer]

too obviously trying to parallel, on the outside of the Transformers' legs, tendons/ligaments and so forth found in us hoomans.

I might agree with the comment if it was just about styling (if I'd seen Gundam and/or disliked it) but as far as the actual mechanics go, I can't see any other way of producing a credible design to match the rest of the realism in the art.

Don takes the path of rounding limb edges quite a bit, something that's quite conciously manga (i.e. it's a style rather than him being unable to do anything else, which latter category I'd say Pat falls into)—and I realise some rounding is necessary to prevent chipping with hard materials. However, this interferes with making clean transformation possible. A solution to this is panelling on the legs rather than making them blocks... something we saw with the Car Robots designs, for example.

As long as they don't turn into kibble (along Beast Wars lines) I'm very happy with a realistic approach using panels.

[Metal Vendetta]

I'm largely in favour of the new legs - they do look Gundam-ish, as I illustrated above, but the goal of drawing more "realistic" Transformers is a laudable one and EJ is leaps and bounds ahead of 90% of previous TF artwork in that respect. I've always preferred "giant robots" to "giant cartoon robots".

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how EJ applies these principles to, say, the Dinobots.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I can understand that a more 'realistic' approach to the design might involve the new look legs to prevent lock ups and stuff - For example the knees on the old ratchet/ironhide were impossible bending blocks of cybertronian steel.
I can aunderstand the idea behind this, but if this is the case then why not apply the same school of design across the entire robot, arms and torso included?

This is my only grip, wheres the art is excellent and of the standard we hope we will always see in the new TF comics, I cant helpy feeling that there is two seperate designs being applied to one body here.

Once again im not trying to piss anyone off, I like EJ's work, Its exactly the style and type of work ive enjoyed by other TF artists over the years, its precise, and looks realistic, its almost like a draftsmans work - which is nice comming from baloon filled TF of Patt Lee's years.

[Best First]

Like I said, it will be interesting to see how EJ applies these principles to, say, the Dinobots.

drool.

[Denyer]

it will be interesting to see how EJ applies these principles to, say, the Dinobots.

Mmm, where you not only want a somewhat chunky effect to go with the characters, but the feet often form a large part of the bulk after transformation. Looking forward to to seeing what kind of redesign we get there, the big guys being personal favourites...

I'm guessing they'll be a fair bit larger than other Autobots, too, something that the original series emphasised (in both mediums) but tended to be lost or overlooked further down the road.

[Yaya]

Gundum or not, the art suffices.


It's the story I'm anxiously anticipating.

[Guest]

it will be interesting to see how EJ applies these principles to, say, the Dinobots.

Mmm, where you not only want a somewhat chunky effect to go with the characters, but the feet often form a large part of the bulk after transformation. Looking forward to to seeing what kind of redesign we get there, the big guys being personal favourites...

I'm guessing they'll be a fair bit larger than other Autobots, too, something that the original series emphasised (in both mediums) but tended to be lost or overlooked further down the road.

More anatomically correct dino-modes could reduce the foot-bulk by a fair bit. In a couple of cases, at least.

[E.J.Su]

Impactor: I am not offended. If I get offended by your mild complaint, I would've gone crazy a few monthes ago.

it will be interesting to see how EJ applies these principles to, say, the Dinobots.

Oh yeah! I would love to redesign the whole cast of Dinobots. This is a piece I did recently, it's not Transformers, but some of elements could be applied if I ever get to redesign Swoop.

[Denyer]

Looks good.

I reckon Swoop could use a little more substance, personally, but pterosaurs are generally wiry -- and Quetzalcoatlus (one of, if not the, largest) didn't have a crest, if I recall.

The really tricky part may be thinking of a plot point to rest the designs on, without a Savage Land analogue... having the Autobots deliberately base them on films or other popular media might be an interesting tack.

It would also explain why they won't have feathers, which it's looking more and more likely real dinosaurs probably developed.

[Legion]

it will be interesting to see how EJ applies these principles to, say, the Dinobots.

Oh yeah! I would love to redesign the whole cast of Dinobots. This is a piece I did recently, it's not Transformers, but some of elements could be applied if I ever get to redesign Swoop.

OOOoohh, you tease you!

[Best First]

having the Autobots deliberately base them on films or other popular media might be an interesting tack.

sounds a bit like the ropey cartoon origin to me.

the savage land option still works, we just need serioulsy extended timescales.

[Denyer]

sounds a bit like the ropey cartoon origin to me.

Both the show and comics origins involve a satellite or Autobot seeing dinosaurs and modelling transformations on them... we seem to be moving away from a "TFs are reactivated and built due to error to resemble vehicles and electronics as the dominant life" and more towards elective alt-modes.

If the Autobots decide that they need hefty group troops, a mostly quadrupedal team of dinosaurs would fit the bill as more maneuverable than tanks. An advantage is sightings are unlikely to be taken seriously by human news media.

Of course, this still leaves them with only one flyer, being reactive rather than proactive to threats.

we just need serioulsy extended timescales.

Tens of millions of years is a long time, even for TFs. Also, the dinosaurs scanned weren't actually all around at the same time in natural history, from what I remember—it was only Marvel's rather bizarre Savage Land that meant you got an Apatosaurus, Tyrannosaurus, Stegosaurus, Triceratops and Pterodactyl around at the same time.

Apatosaurus --> Jurassic
Tyrannosaurus --> Cretaceous
Stegosaurus --> Jurassic
Triceratops --> Cretaceous
Pterodactyl --> Jurassic

(NB: Swoop is definitely a pterodactyl in the original media, not a pteranadon.)

Unless you assume that they were all activated on the cusp of the change-over (144 million years ago) or come up with a backstory involving two activations (not such a bad idea, that, though there's still the ~150 million year old thing) it wouldn't work simply from history.

Plus, if you go by history the dinosaurs likely had plumage. If you go by popular representations of dinosaurs, you have an excuse for getting the dinosaur bit wrong, as it were...