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Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:18 pm

Denyer wrote:
Best First wrote:we just need serioulsy extended timescales.
Tens of millions of years is a long time, even for TFs. Also, the dinosaurs scanned weren't actually all around at the same time in natural history, from what I remember—it was only Marvel's rather bizarre Savage Land that meant you got an Apatosaurus, Tyrannosaurus, Stegosaurus, Triceratops and Pterodactyl around at the same time.

Apatosaurus --> Jurassic
Tyrannosaurus --> Cretaceous
Stegosaurus --> Jurassic
Triceratops --> Cretaceous
Pterodactyl --> Jurassic

(NB: Swoop is definitely a pterodactyl in the original media, not a pteranadon.)

Unless you assume that they were all activated on the cusp of the change-over (144 million years ago) or come up with a backstory involving two activations (not such a bad idea, that, though there's still the ~150 million year old thing) it wouldn't work simply from history.

Plus, if you go by history the dinosaurs likely had plumage. If you go by popular representations of dinosaurs, you have an excuse for getting the dinosaur bit wrong, as it were...

You could, of course, argue that some members of the species survived for longer than current evolutionary theory believes. After all, the coelacanth was believed to have died out in the Cretateous, until they found a live specimen.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:19 pm

How about a post-BW "DNA scan" or similar? (Despite the fact that fossils have no DNA) BW Megs and Dinobot got their forms scanned directly from the bones themselves. No reason why a machine couldn't base a form on those and get things wrong (no plumage etc) just as people have done over the years?

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:43 pm

i'd say a plot line that is maybe a bit fast and loose with prehistoric eras is still preferable to 'ooh, lets make dinosuars'.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:19 pm

Bouncelot wrote:You could, of course, argue that some members of the species survived for longer than current evolutionary theory believes.

Mmm. On the whole, I'd prefer not deliberately disregarding known (or well-supported theories of) history just for convenience. That is what I'd call lazy. Rewriting history and/or time travel and/or discovering an island that's never been spotted by satellite before are well-worn clichés.

The DNA scan sounds like a slightly better idea, except Beast Wars emphasised that the animals forms were fully-functional copies without going into any of the science (alt-modes are about as realistic as Pretenders in this era of fic.) If TFs can do impressive things with DNA and fake organic material, they should be able to fashion clone servitors rather than bother with alt-modes and similar.

I'd go for the movies, elective alt-modes and plausible deniability of nobody taking dinosaur spottings seriously, myself...

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:27 pm

Denyer wrote: I'd go for the movies, elective alt-modes and plausible deniability of nobody taking dinosaur spottings seriously, myself...

sorry, but i think that sounds bloody awful and just as contrived as everything else mentioned IMO.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:17 pm

Best First wrote:sorry, but i think that sounds bloody awful and just as contrived as everything else mentioned IMO.

You're not going to get a perfect backstory and Dinobots, I think.

The "nobody would ever take them seriously" angle plays into what Furman's already doing with Hunter, making Grimlock and company a hundred and fifty million years old is pushing it, a modern era dinosaur island would be dodgily unrealistic (the giant alien robot card is already being played, with unusual effort to keep things credible) and divert attention from whatever plot is ongoing, and reconstructing from fossils has the same "why bother?" question attached as reconstructing from BBC's Walking With Dinosaurs.

So yeah, you've got contrivance whichever you dice it.

I'd rather just not see the Dinobots if their appearance is going to be a massive kludge and/or motivated by fanboy appeasement. If the Autobots are going to expend resources modifying or building reinforcement, it'd make far more sense for them to get themselves some airborne alt-modes.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:25 pm

Denyer wrote:Tens of millions of years is a long time, even for TFs. Also, the dinosaurs scanned weren't actually all around at the same time in natural history, from what I remember—it was only Marvel's rather bizarre Savage Land that meant you got an Apatosaurus, Tyrannosaurus, Stegosaurus, Triceratops and Pterodactyl around at the same time.

Apatosaurus --> Jurassic
Tyrannosaurus --> Cretaceous
Stegosaurus --> Jurassic
Triceratops --> Cretaceous
Pterodactyl --> Jurassic

(NB: Swoop is definitely a pterodactyl in the original media, not a pteranadon.)

Unless you assume that they were all activated on the cusp of the change-over (144 million years ago) or come up with a backstory involving two activations (not such a bad idea, that, though there's still the ~150 million year old thing) it wouldn't work simply from history.

The time zones animals are grouped into is based on the frequency of their discovered remains in the fossil record, and science's inane need to compartmentalise things.

Pterasaurs may have flourished during the Jurassic Period, but they were around for much of the Mesozoic Era, as were many other species.

It's quite possible for all five examples of dinosaur to have been in existence at the same time.

Still doesn't work around the 65-odd million years, though.

I wonder why there were no Dinobots based on examples from the Triassic Period.

Post by **Best First** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:53 pm

Denyer wrote:
Best First wrote:sorry, but i think that sounds bloody awful and just as contrived as everything else mentioned IMO.
You're not going to get a perfect backstory and Dinobots, I think.

agreed.

So yeah, you've got contrivance whichever you dice it.

agreed.

I'd rather just not see the Dinobots if their appearance is going to be a massive kludge and/or motivated by fanboy appeasement. If the Autobots are going to expend resources modifying or building reinforcement, it'd make far more sense for them to get themselves some airborne alt-modes.

and... aye.

how much of a streach would it be to... just not have them be dinosaurs?

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:13 pm

Best First wrote:how much of a streach would it be to... just not have them be dinosaurs?

As long as you don't call them Dinobots, that'll work.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:55 pm

Just stick them in a story involving time travel.

Post by **Denyer** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:04 pm

Best First wrote:how much of a streach would it be to... just not have them be dinosaurs?

Worked alright in Dark Ages... although there was the opportunity to keep a reasonable amount of visual similarity, and not just with the heads. As irrational as it is, recognition is going to centre on colour schemes and rough shapes...

Time travel? Argh.

Rebis wrote:the time zones animals are grouped into is based on the frequency of their discovered remains in the fossil record

And there isn't much evidence Tyrannosauruses were around for long, whether because of the food quantities required to sustain such large predators peaking at certain points or whatever.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:58 pm

perhaps teletran 1's survilance gos wrong when the camera gets stuck in a natural history museam...

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:09 pm

I thought that a nice touch for the movie would have been to have Spielberg (he's still involved, right?) make a cameo filming Jurassic Park 4. As the Ark's satellite alt-mode selector thing flies overhead it scans Spielberg's big mechanical T-Rex (cue "X-ray-style" scans to show the mechanical skeleton and structure to the thing) that he's using for that particular scene, and transmits the details back to the Ark. Voila, one Grimlock. Unlike the other Dinobot theories it's half-way plausible...