Torture Report

[Professor Smooth]

This was released about a day ago. Turns out that, yeah, without question, the US government tortured a *lot* of people. Waterboarding wasn't even the worst of it. At least one person died after being chained near-naked to a cold floor. Suspects were handcuffed, made to stand, and deprived of sleep for more than a week. Others were subjected to "rectal feeding with no medical necessity" which, no matter how you try to dress it up, really sounds a lot like "RAPE".

A specific prisoner was hung upside down and had the soles of his feet beaten until he confessed...a link between Iraq and Al Quaida. A link that didn't *exist* and was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. A false confession, extracted through outright torture, lead to the conflict that killed or maimed tens of thousands of American troops, hundreds of thousands (conservative estimate) of Iraqi civillians, and gave rise to groups like Islamic State.

On top of ALL of that, there are still people, POWERFUL people, who *continue* to defend this.

I feel sick.

[Yaya]

[Best First]

"We only abandon our principles in the name of defending our principles"

[Computron]

"We only abandon our principles in the name of defending our principles"

Pretty much sums it up.

[bumblemusprime]

"We only abandon our principles in the name of defending our principles"

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

[Professor Smooth]

The noise coming out of the right wing on this is terrifying.

It quickly went from "We may have used enhanced interogation, but we never tortured" to "Yes, we tortured some people...and we should keep doing it if it means keeping us safe!"

Just in the last week, people on FOX (the single most watched cable news network in America/Republican propaganda juggernaut) have said that perhaps torture would have helped to prevent the sad incident in Australia and the unthinkable attrocity in Pakistan).

People with powerful voices and millions of followers are not only defending the previous administration's use of torture, but are actively suggesting it continue to be used.

This despite the terror report outright saying, in the easiest terms to understand possible, that NOTHING useful was gained by torturing people. So, even if it weren't morally unthinkable...it DOESN'T work.

I'm not sure I can put into words how uncomfortable that makes me. This isn't some fringe group. These are people who control 2/3rds of the American government and generally have a 50/50 shot of controlling the presidency every 4 years or so. These are people IN power who will almost certainly have MORE power in the not-so-distant future.

These are the same people who have been content to not only grind the the US government to a halt, to shut it down briefly, and to actively work against the people trying to dig the nation out from the multitude of castrophies the previous administration caused. They've shown themselves to be HAPPY to let everything go to hell, just so long as they and their friends continue to be rich and powerful. And now, they've made defending TORTURE their business.

After ALL that, roughly 50% will STILL support these people. The people who are in favor of torture, gutting social services, keeping people from having health care, keeping women from having anything resembling equal rights, and allowing cops to murder "suspects" without consequence.

Does there EXIST something so terrible that Republicans won't defend it?

[bumblemusprime]

Former Republican Presidential nominee.

Long-term senator with a history of opposing various party lines (minus that period in 2007-2008 where he'd say anything to get the nom)

Former POW, Vietnam.

Actually been tortured.

"Torture doesn't work."

This is a person who, despite being unable to stand against Obama, and running a ***** campaign, had every qualification to lead the US FROM THE CONSERVATIVE POSITION. But no, let's not listen.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-secu ... oesnt-work

[Computron]

It's an old point, but the conservative mindset is built upon fear and punishment.

Fear of harm to the group or tribe. (e.g., constant paranoia as exemplified by watching Fox News for 10 minutes. Everything is a "NEWS ALERT," every story a threat to your way of life, every action by a Democrat the worst thing ever to good ol' American culture and so on.)

The second prong is punishment. Those who threaten the proper order of things are dehumanized and deserving of punishment.

The poor deserve to be poor because they are lazy. Drug test them constantly because only poor people do drugs, so they must be doing something.

Torture these people because they might have hurt us, and since they aren't True Americans, they don't have rights.

As an aside, it is hilarious from a legal perspective that the U.S. Constitution was written as a way of holding government powers in check. In other words, it enumerates what specific powers the govt has and everything else is reserved for the people. Look at the thing. It's barely a few pages in length and spends almost all of its time describing the Congress, the Presidency and the Judiciary. Compare it to the EU Constitution which is what, 400 odd pages?

In any case many people unfortunately view the U.S. Constitution as granting specific rights to the people, and that the govt has the rest of the power. Thus, if you aren't a U.S. Citizen, you have no rights. This is ridiculous. The Constitution acts as a brake on government power, regardless of whether the target of that govt action is a citizen or not. Otherwise you have to take the position that it is an abuse of human rights most foul to abuse a U.S. Citizen, but perfectly ok against a non citizen. So much for rights being a universal gift to humanity. Human rights only matter if you are born in the right place.

Hmm, wait, that sounds awfully familiar...you only have rights if you are born to the right people...I feel like the U.S. had to deal with this back in, oh lets say 1861, and to prevent it from happening again, we put in several constitutional amendments to make clear that this wouldn't be tolerated.

Course that would require reading the damn thing and not just waving around a flag and putting a magnetic ribbon on your car.

TLDR: The 5th, 8th and 14th Amendments refer to persons not citizens. The terms are not interchangeable as the Constitution uses the two terms in different locations for different purposes. Torture is, by definition, cruel and unusual punishment and a denial of due process. This shouldn't even be an argument.

[Best First]

I think my favourite is that the second ammendment is in place to allow you to protect yourselves/rise up if your government explictly turn into a pack of c***s.

And yet when your govenment is dialled all the way up to maximum c*** there is a huge cross over between the people who are desperate to hang onto the guns and who actively support said 1 million percent c*** beheviour.

[bumblemusprime]

We're good at propaganda. US has spent years converting those with anti-government tendencies into shills for a political party.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Peace through tyranny.

[Best First]

That is literally how these people think.

They tell themselves that what is at stake is so great that no compromise is too much and they damn had who challenge them as lacking the will to do what needs to be done. It is bullet proof circular logic.

It's also how terrorists think.

[Professor Smooth]

The double-think required to identify as a modern day conservative is staggering.

Want to be a Christian nation. But be staunchly against any and all social services that help the poor.

Support the 2nd amendment as a check on government tyranny. But support the cops who keep shooting unarmed black people. And torture.

Demand smaller government. While also supporting new laws restricting the rights of women, gays, and others.

Support the troops! But not any of the attempts to actually *help* them once they've returned home (with jobs, health care, etc)

[Yaya]

Wow. You guys have the freedom to say all those things without fear of repercussions/accusations/surveillance.

Must be nice.

[Professor Smooth]

Wow. You guys have the freedom to say all those things without fear of repercussions/accusations/surveillance.

Must be nice.

Sorry, man.