Bumble Is A Sexist Man

[bumblemusprime]

So, a little while ago I was having a conversation with a friend in which I made a generic, rather tasteless "take drugs and sleep around" joke. She interpreted it as a "take roofies and let yourself get raped." I apologized right away and ate crow, you know.

A few days later the incident was bothering me. I wrote her an email pointing out that her reaction seemed to assume that I had made the joke deliberately, instead of realizing that I hadn't just used a poor choice of words. Naturally, I had already asked some people if they could see the rape correlation in the statement, and they couldn't, but I didn't bring that up because I didn't want to "outvote" her.

I just wanted to know why she thought I was the kind of person who would make that sort of joke. I've known this girl for two years and spent a good bit of time with her. In face, I believe I'm her only close straight male friend.

Hooooooly sh*tstorm. Not only (to her) was I now taking my apology back and shifting blame and calling her awful for accusing me of being sexist, but of course, turns out she had been assaulted.

So on one hand, here I am, a douchebag for even bringing it up, because men can't bring this sort of stuff up, even if (in my case) close family members have been sexually assaulted.

But on the other, here I am, kind of pissed off that I got pigeonholed as an evil male stereotype, partially because I have been hurt deeply by sexual assault. I know she wouldn't have made this assumption if a girl said it, or a gay guy. Whatcha think? Sprunk needs to get off his high horse? The penis-bearers can't catch a break?

[Brendocon]

Not only (to her) was I now taking my apology back and shifting blame and calling her awful for accusing me of being sexist

... and you didn't see that coming?

[bumblemusprime]

Not only (to her) was I now taking my apology back and shifting blame and calling her awful for accusing me of being sexist

... and you didn't see that coming?

I thought that knowing someone for a while would preclude any of that. Probably the stupidest thought ever.

[Jack Cade]

Oo, can we add 'Jack Cade is a white supremacist' to the thread title?

I too have been hauled over the coals recently, Sprunk. Joined in a discussion where we were rightly criticising a terrible review of a British poet who happened to have a Russian surname (the review henceforth deciding to compare her to Russian writers). I committed the double sin of suggesting that maybe the guy is just a bad reviewer and not racist, and then getting a person's name the wrong way round (they had listed their surname first on Facebook). Then I compounded it all by arguing that it was somewhat narrow-minded to attribute all such mistakes to racial insensitivity, as opposed to more innocent human failing. Eventually I apologised and was told my apology was worthless.

Hooray for tolerance!

[Kaylee]

Sounds like a communication failure than compounded by a lack of empathy and a desire to straighten out the other person's perception of the situation.

Obviously there was a miscommunication that started the matter, your friend then got in trouble because of it and didn't empathise that you had meant no harm.

You were empathetic enough to resolve the situation from her perspective, but not to your own satisfaction causing you to wish to straighten out her understanding later on.

This retracting of your empathy led your friend to misunderstand your intentions and think you were backpeddling, and make the situation even worse.

Well, it sounds like a damn shame and you might lose a friend but doesn't sound sexist or offensive. It sounds like one of those misunderstandings that just happen from time to time.

You can either continue to try to straighten this out, but risk overanalysing/overtalking the situation, or drop it and hope that eventually the finer details will become unimportant with time and you can both be friends again.

Complicated stuff

Is that analysis accurate?

My condolensces for the situation, it sounds pretty unpleasant. I hope it resolves well for you.

[bumblemusprime]

Sounds like a communication failure than compounded by a lack of empathy and a desire to straighten out the other person's perception of the situation.

Obviously there was a miscommunication that started the matter, your friend then got in trouble because of it and didn't empathise that you had meant no harm.

You were empathetic enough to resolve the situation from her perspective, but not to your own satisfaction causing you to wish to straighten out her understanding later on.

This retracting of your empathy led your friend to misunderstand your intentions and think you were backpeddling, and make the situation even worse.

Well, it sounds like a damn shame and you might lose a friend but doesn't sound sexist or offensive. It sounds like one of those misunderstandings that just happen from time to time.

You can either continue to try to straighten this out, but risk overanalysing/overtalking the situation, or drop it and hope that eventually the finer details will become unimportant with time and you can both be friends again.

Complicated stuff

Is that analysis accurate?

My condolensces for the situation, it sounds pretty unpleasant. I hope it resolves well for you.

Thank ya, Karl. Very astute.

I wrote her a last email apologizing, saying that I had grown emotional and giving her some detail about why it made me so upset. She still doesn't seem to get the problem I had with her original response. There were several times where she would say "I know you didn't mean it to be a rape joke" only to add, later on, "you deliberately made an unfunny and vicious comment about rape."

So I don't think this one's going to see my point of view. Which is a damn shame, because not only is she my friend, but she's close to several other good friends I have, all of whom are likely to take her side because, like I said, I'm the man in the conversation and there was no way for me to do this without coming off as an asshole. Shoulda known. More time with the kids, then.

[saysadie]

It sounds to me like there's two things going on here:

1, it's an issue that she still hasn't dealt with on some level. 2, she's needlessly creating drama because she isn't mature enough to realise that drama is ****.

or the hidden 3 for every woman- pre-period mood swings. Actually, it could be 3 added on top of 1 and 2. Those hormones can be killer for some people.

Either (or any) way, there's no way to win with this one. Bitches be crazy, yo. For what it's worth, you sounded perfectly reasonable to me.

(everything in between here and points 1 and 2 was a joke, btw.)

I'm fairly certain she will eventually come to her senses, as long as her blowing things out of proportion doesn't always work out well for her. It's kind of like a kid having a tantrum- if they get something they want at the end of it, they're always going to be throwing tantrums because it's always worked for them. It's the same thing with guys being douche-bags- if it works for them and gets them what they want, why would they give it up?

[Shanti418]

I wrote her a last email apologizing, saying that I had grown emotional and giving her some detail about why it made me so upset. She still doesn't seem to get the problem I had with her original response. There were several times where she would say "I know you didn't mean it to be a rape joke" only to add, later on, "you deliberately made an unfunny and vicious comment about rape."

So I don't think this one's going to see my point of view. Which is a damn shame, because not only is she my friend, but she's close to several other good friends I have, all of whom are likely to take her side because, like I said, I'm the man in the conversation and there was no way for me to do this without coming off as an asshole. Shoulda known. More time with the kids, then.

So to her even saying something like "women (and of course men as well) use intoxication as a way to rid themselves of responsibilities for their reaction" was blaming the victim. To me, you assume female sexual agency, where a woman can make a rational decision to get wasted and f*** a lot, and she's probably coming from a more structuralist critique, where the patriarchy is shaping what women even want or believe they want. Is she non-heterosexual? Just asking because you say you're her only straight and white friend. Maybe she doesn't really like the whole "straight white men with wives and kids" thing, and you were still on probation as far as "is this guy cool." But it sounds like she may have a more 2nd view wave of feminism and you a more 3rd wave view.

Sounds like a communication failure than compounded by a lack of empathy and a desire to straighten out the other person's perception of the situation.

Obviously there was a miscommunication that started the matter, your friend then got in trouble because of it and didn't empathise that you had meant no harm.

You were empathetic enough to resolve the situation from her perspective, but not to your own satisfaction causing you to wish to straighten out her understanding later on.

This retracting of your empathy led your friend to misunderstand your intentions and think you were backpeddling, and make the situation even worse.

Well, it sounds like a damn shame and you might lose a friend but doesn't sound sexist or offensive. It sounds like one of those misunderstandings that just happen from time to time.

You can either continue to try to straighten this out, but risk overanalysing/overtalking the situation, or drop it and hope that eventually the finer details will become unimportant with time and you can both be friends again.

Complicated stuff

Is that analysis accurate?

My condolensces for the situation, it sounds pretty unpleasant. I hope it resolves well for you.

Karl, between this and all the other threads, I find myself thinking one thing. How did we ever get along without you in those two dark years you didn't post??? NEVER LEAVE AGAIN. You are consistently insightful, delightful, and respectful.

[Kaylee]

Little do you know I'm a bot based on Google Scribe. I just get lucky to even be on the right subject each time

If I may, Spence, if i were you, my choices would be:

Let it go and see if time heals it

Or, if being friends with her is not more important than fighting the perception she has that you are 'in the wrong', apologise for the lot and take responsibility, including ownership of the things she has done.

The second is hard because you can't apologise for stuff you're not sorry for, and it sounds like you're both 'right'. Neither of your reactions sound unreasonable in the circumstances, you just happened to collide.

However you can take responsibility, apologise again and hope it preserves your relationship by placating her sense of anger, at your own expense.

Or you could decide it's not worth it. You've collided once and may collide again.

Hard stuff

Or I might be talking rubbish, which is always an option

[bumblemusprime]

I did apologize, mostly for convenience, and partially because of her circumstances. She really doesn't have a lot of friends, she works at home, she has ill health, her girlfriend (yes, non-hetero) lives in another country and is polyamorous anyway, so she is sharing the girl with a man in the other country... etc.

Pretty sad rough life this girl's had, actually. So I'm just going to accept that I am going to be the bad guy by virtue of being a guy. She shot me down, and she shot me down hard, maybe because I am one of the only guys she can do this to. If she had a different set of circumstances and any other male friends she saw on a consistent basis, she might realize that things are different and I didn't mean it and I'm allowed to be upset.

As it is, I would have been much smarter to leave it alone and not send the email, and just accept that this chick has issues, despite being my friend. So I sent a pretty thorough apology. It's probably crap by now, but ah well, see below.

How in the world did we get along without Karl? Also, how did we get along without Sadie's PMS jokes?

This experience has confirmed some of my suspicions that straight white guys, in certain circumstances, will never get the benefit of the doubt. Now I could shut up and accept that I was raised in suburbia and have a lot of advantages to make up for it so I can just keep my head down when people do this stuff... or I could be a little upset that I have seen sexual assault wreck my family, I have put myself in danger for the sake of helping abused women, and I have worked hard to help people heal from sexual abuse, in one case sexual abuse and assault perpetrated by women upon a male child.

But if someone takes a comment wrong, they get to ream me out, and I should accept it and move on. Never mind that they have essentially patronized my experience and my values. This reminds me a bit like Stephen Colbert's segment about prospective employers Googling you for past screwups--the advice was, I believe, "Just never do anything wrong."

[Jack Cade]

This experience has confirmed some of my suspicions that straight white guys, in certain circumstances, will never get the benefit of the doubt.

Sprunk - be careful in translating individual experience into social truism. imo, your friend is being unreasonable, and playing on both your awarenesses of sensitive subjects to take out some of her anger on you. But somewhere else in the world (and in fact, probably more frequently) it's happening the other way round:

"Hey, aren't you being kind of sexist?"
"Oh, ffs, woman, don't be so frigid."

The fact is that when people are unreasonable they bend the rules to suit them. And it's a double-bind - the only to fight back is to become unreasonable yourself, which they will then say proves them right. All you can do is point it out if you think it's worth standing up to someone, or take it on the chin if you don't want to risk hurting them (because nothing hurts like having your own hypocrisy pointed out).

I know completely what you mean about being patronised. I feel like I basically got told: "Everything you say is just because you're a straight white guy reaffirming your dominance and you have any idea what it's like to be excluded."

[bumblemusprime]

Oh yeah, definitely. I'm well aware of where she was coming from in this perception, in more than just the "after-school-special" kind of way. And I suppose that was why I should have been smarter than to call her out on stereotyping me in the first place, because there's a big relevant reason for that stereotype.

As a straight white guy who really works my ass off not to be a sexist pig, though--when accused of such a thing, even by a friend, it really makes me feel devalued. The case Jack just cited is all-too-common, but it doesn't mean that I don't feel like **** when a close friend shoves me right into that stereotype with no benefit of the doubt.