A'Merka

[Jack Cade]

So you've got a boner for Buddhism? Good for you!

Myself I question the wisdom of keeping alive a belief system that has previously presided, smiling, over bloody torture and is of really questionable benefit, but there you go.

I don't even know or care that much about Buddhists or Buddhism - I'm just not rushing to say it's pointless or evil based on weak reasoning.

It's laughable, for instance, to say you 'question the wisdom of keeping alive' something, when it's managing perfectly fine without any effort on our part to maintain it. What we're really talking about is whether or not it should be actively opposed. Yours is the position which requires some kind of investment of emotion; mine is the one of general apathy. Odd that you see it the other way round.

And that last paragraph could as well be Richard Littlejohn saying, "I question the wisdom of permitting a way of life that sees men gather covertly in public toilets to spread around their STDs."

[Kaylee]

Ah, Littlejohn. A sage of our times.

[Metal Vendetta]

I don't even know or care that much about Buddhists or Buddhism - I'm just not rushing to say it's pointless or evil based on weak reasoning.

Whatever, man. You and Karl asked my opinion and I gave it - did you miss the bit earlier when I self-identified as an anti-religious über-bastard? I'm hardly likely to do an about-turn now and start cheering and dancing in the Buddhist parades, am I?

It's laughable, for instance, to say you 'question the wisdom of keeping alive' something, when it's managing perfectly fine without any effort on our part to maintain it. What we're really talking about is whether or not it should be actively opposed. Yours is the position which requires some kind of investment of emotion; mine is the one of general apathy. Odd that you see it the other way round.

Nah, it's your default position of respecting other people's beliefs (no matter how insane or wacky they might be) that takes the effort. From my point of view, dismissing all religion as either actively evil or useless is a surprisingly easy attitude to maintain - I don't have to bother myself trying to understand any of the (deliberately obtuse) nonsense they spout, for example. Even if there was a religion that was completely non-harmful and promoted peace and happiness throughout the world (ha!), it would still be a load of **** because "magic man in the sky said so" is not a valid reason for anything and neither is "it says in my holy book..."

And that last paragraph could as well be Richard Littlejohn saying, "I question the wisdom of permitting a way of life that sees men gather covertly in public toilets to spread around their STDs."

Ahahahaha, yeah, right. Projecting much?

[Shanti418]

It's laughable, for instance, to say you 'question the wisdom of keeping alive' something, when it's managing perfectly fine without any effort on our part to maintain it. What we're really talking about is whether or not it should be actively opposed. Yours is the position which requires some kind of investment of emotion; mine is the one of general apathy. Odd that you see it the other way round.

Nah, it's your default position of respecting other people's beliefs (no matter how insane or wacky they might be) that takes the effort. From my point of view, dismissing all religion as either actively evil or useless is a surprisingly easy attitude to maintain - I don't have to bother myself trying to understand any of the (deliberately obtuse) nonsense they spout, for example. Even if there was a religion that was completely non-harmful and promoted peace and happiness throughout the world (ha!), it would still be a load of **** because "magic man in the sky said so" is not a valid reason for anything and neither is "it says in my holy book..."

Well that's an interesting question: is the "default" position of man "I'm not going to interest myself in other people's affairs," or "I'm going to judge and castigate everyone based upon my own culturally and historically contingent view of things?" Either one is possible, though I doubt people think the latter is preferable. It's like the Prime Directive: letting other people believe in whatever they want to will inevitably lead to less trouble than trying to convince Buddhists that their belief system should be thrown out in the trash because "Buddha says so" doesn't pass the smell test in our current secular, scientific iteration of society. As the South Park Mormon episode said, "Maybe we DO believe in crazy ****. But I have a great life, and a great family, and I have religion to thank for that. I don't care if it's all made up, because what they teach now is being nice, loving your family, and helping people. And even if you think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it."

[Impactor returns 2.0]

That's why it's stupid.

So without religon you wouldn't be a loving careing person etc... ?

Ive read this thread and stayed out of it, but I'm still firmly routed in lvl 5 atheism. I really do despise religion!

[Metal Vendetta]

As the South Park Mormon episode said, "Maybe we DO believe in crazy ****. But I have a great life, and a great family, and I have religion to thank for that. I don't care if it's all made up, because what they teach now is being nice, loving your family, and helping people. And even if you think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it."

I believe I quoted that to Sprunkner the very first time I met him - it's not like I go around persecuting Buddhists but I was asked my opinion of Buddhism and I've given it honestly. Perhaps I could lie to make you guys feel better?

Yay! Buddhism! Another belief system that doesn't keep people infantilised with their heads full of made-up mumbo jumbo! I'm so glad people live their lives according to doctrines that are about 3000 years out of date and so pliable they can be used to excuse almost any atrocity! Sign me up! Let me just smash myself in the head with a hammer to achieve sufficient acquired brain damage to permanently suspend my sense of disbelief!

Hm, this lying thing isn't as easy as I thought

[Kaylee]

I like understanding other people's thoughts.

[Metal Vendetta]

I like understanding other people's thoughts.

I got that - the questions you asked are ones that actually required some thought and (for great want of a better word) soul-searching.

[Kaylee]

I like understanding other people's thoughts.

I got that - the questions you asked are ones that actually required some thought and (for great want of a better word) soul-searching.

Your answers were equally thought provoking and anything that makes me re analyse my own POV is Good

[Metal Vendetta]

Sweet.

What next? How about the Zoroastrians?

[Kaylee]

That or H P Lovecraft

Cthulu <3 U

[Metal Vendetta]

Ḫͥ̎̑͆͊̿̋e̛̝̔̽ͭ̒̄ͣͅ ͈̠̣̳̠͓ͣW͓̣̕a̰͛ͩͭ͗̒ͩi̘͈̼͔̦̅̚ͅt̾̉̃̂̃ͫs̠̏̒ ̟ͮ̂ͪ̑ͩ̒͒͘B͈̜̞̂̂ë̱̱̲̩͎ͦͫ̃h̼͇̮̳ͤ͐ͯͦ̑͜ḯ̬̽̆́̽n̘͙̜̤͌ͮ̓͆͛̚͘d̖̮͔̮͍̥̤̄ ̶̺͕̞̪͙ͦ͌T̥͇̠͉̥͖̘ͩ̈͐̂̽̈͘ẖ̭̘̪̭̜ͫ̕ẻ̃҉ ̫̞̹̳̝ͧ̇ͮͭ̊̓W̢̯̓͛͒ͣ͂a̍̓͡ḽ̶͈̤͙̣̈ͭ̒ͭ͂̂̑l̩̳ͥ,͈͉̼̜̖̖͇͛ͩ̆͗ ̢̫̥̣̋͆͋̾̒i̺̟̇n̗̝̜̣ͧͭ̑́̚ ̖̈́a͌͆ ͚̺͔̝̖p̥̻͎͎͍̗̠͂ͪͤ͠ą̽̎ͩ̚l̦̗̝͖͎̙̆͊a̫͖͈̙͂̏͑ͣ͢c̯̠̤̻͓̙̘e̡̝̘̫̤̰̜͎ ̘ͤ̒͛o̴͉͙̻̟̦̘̒f̻̺̞ ̱̳̭̥͌̒t̺͎̝̰ͩ͊ͭͦ͗͛̉ͅo̴͔̮͈͔̙̪̩͆͊ͩ̎̿̚̚ŕ̥͉͕̻̻̦́ͥ͊ť͎̥͖͎̬̟̔͡ư̠̞ͫ̾̂̌̒r͗̅̚e̠͉̝̮̤̍ͮ͒̾d̫̝͙͠ ̙ͣ̐̑̇g̗ͪ̍l̤̱̭͈a̴̜͍͉͉̓s̱̣̹͜ś̬,̇ ͖̖̻͔̫͕̀ͭ͗̋͌s̍̒ͥę͙͗́̈́ͫ̒ͮr̥͌̃̚v̫̽ͯͤ́̎ͬeͣ̈́̊̏̂ͣ̀ḋ̥͔ͤ̂ͪͧ͜ ̝̠͖̦̰̘̍͘b͎͈͔y̛ͤ̂ͦ͌̿̐ ̞͕̣̞̓̂͑ͪͦͅl̶̩̹̼̟̯̠̪̋̀̎̇͛̎̃e͈̤ͭ̃g̣̝̖ͣ̃̈̚̕i̻̠̣ͦ̉o͔̰̞͍͑ͮ͂̈́ͦ̌n͡ṡ̗ͨ̌ͬ ̟̩̥͗̌ͭ̈͂f̙ͥ̾̎ͯ͛̋͛o̡̩͂͗ͯ̽͑̅ͨr̝̻̝̭̄̐̚g͚̤̳̟̱͍̭̏̆͆͌̚e̠̥̭̼̪͔͚ͬͬ̿̆d̖̭̺̬̦̀ ̵̹̮̤̹͇̞̠̒ͪ̊ͯͧ̓f̛͕̮̹̰͕͔͎ͧr͗͏ö̡͚ͥ̈́̃̓m͎̝̺̋ͪ ̺̗͓̋̚t̠̳̗̹̱̉̅ͯ̀͆͂hͫe̳̬͊̐ͦ́ ̥̤̩ͧ͠t͎͎̱̉ͮ̂̊̕ě͓̩̗͉͍ͭ̊̂a͓̮̭̼̲͓̐ͬͭ̎̈ŗ̩͐ͬ͌͌̋s͒̍̈ͩ̃̍̓́ ̫̞̽̽̽͋̀̚ọ̪̫͚̤̈́̂ͤ̒̄ͪf̯̮̱̟̂̀̋ͣ̈́ͯ͋͞ ̸̦̳̣̝̓ͤ͊͒̓́t̰̙̟ͤ̈́ͩ̚h̠ͮ͑̑͆̀ę̜̩ ͔͇̖̙̀̈́̀s̊ͤ҉̲̦͇̲̙̖̹l͑́̑̍͂̎ȩͤͥe̻̯͓ͪ̊̔͑̋p͉͕̗̻l͛̑̌̓ȩ͈̰̤̦ͫ͆s̊s̰̰̳̮̺͌̓ͣͅ ̨̬̣̘͎̈́͛̆̀͂d̖͔̳̤̮̔͌̄̄̒ĕ̥͗ͤ̈́̎͌̀a̺̳̱͍̳͋̆ͬ̌ͯ͢d͕̠̹̘̃̄ͥ̽̄̎́ ̱̜͙̜͙͒ͦ̓͊̋̏̐ͅͅa̩̱̘͐ͥn̙͈̼̑͆̐̎ͮͫ̚d̟̻̥͖͑ͪ ̛̰̫̫̲͈ͭ͆c̣̔ͅl̻̩͉̹͎̿̓ͧ͐a̼̣̣̫̳̭̲̐ͣ͐ͪ̂̾̏d̼͇̖̼̭̝́ͬͪ̆̒̈ ̞̳̮̣̟ͦͮ͆̍ͨͅi͇̺̤̭̘͍̜ͯͨͫn̳̪̩̟͈͕̮ͧ ̘̗̠̯̦̮͇a̛̳̜͛ͪͅr͆͌͒̉̈́̎͜m͈̜͎̮̤̓́͆͟ọ̰̲̭͙͈̲̊͡r̴̳̻̱̬ c̤͍͚ͬͧ̋̀a͒҉̺͎̳̲r̷͉̿̿̃̚v̗̠̼̙̮̖̆̄ͯ͂͊͂ͥ͠ͅě̘̻̩̤̘̑ͫͣd̥̈́̽ͥ͌̑͊̌ ̮̓̃̚f̻ͫr͔̫̮̠͎͎͎͐̂oͬ̄̊m̛͓̯͓̣̐ͦͅ ̜̺͋ͩ͂̏͂̉͞t̟̝̦̠̳̜̳͊͋ͤ͗͞h̝̻̄̔͢e̲ͩ̈́͊̽̾ ̍ͨͮͮͪ̄̋͟s̈̄̿ṷͣ̐̋ͩ͢f̹̲͔̭̦̫̼̑̏f̶̝̪̗̻̹͍̾̍ͭͪe͒̍ͪ͞r̷ͧͥ͒͌ͭi͒͊͂͟ń̹̹̮̥͂͋̓̓g̱̯͂̈́̃̑̓ ̮̜̘̯̺͎̌ͧ͑̐̄o̶͇͕̝͔ͥͦ̐ͦ̐ͫf̵̹̟̹ͅ ̞͕͉̱̖͑ͫ͌̓m̴̞̳̤̝̅̎̈́̋͌ͧo̰͔̦͇͗ͩ͆́t͕ͅh͓̆̈́ę͉̤͈̍̄͒̃r̼̮̜͙̻ͤs̢̘̜͇͕̪̒̔ͅ.͟ ͑̎̚I̥̪̥͔͛̈́͌ͤ̿̄n̵͈͚̹͗ͩͬ ͓̬̻͙͈͔̅͐ͭh̄ͣͬį̙̘̜ͦṣ̟͋ ̓̓͏̞r͚̤͔͈̲̝̀ͯ̔̀ḭ̝̱̫͕̪g̺͊̽ͤ̿̅ͭĥ̤̜̺̤͒ͪ̉ͫ̂ťͥ h͓͎̗̼͓̾ͨͫąn̴̠̙͚̫dͩ ̣͈͔͉̭͉ͦͮͤ̈́ͅh̖̤̩͒́e̺̼͉̗ ̹̖͐ͧͧ̎h̡̺̅̈́̾o̫̳̹̻̙̞͇ͭ͆ͦ̓́l̾̑̕d̜͚̤̻̳ͯ̌ͥ͆͑̕ͅs̳̥͙͕̬͈̦ͧ͗̓ ̠̜̗̠̺̟͊ȧ͚ͧ͒͆̈́͗ͫ ̢̚d͙̟e̶̥͇͚̳a̶͇̒̾̾̐̾̾d̩͉̻̙̭̱̂ ̡̟̻̰̭̥̻͎ͥ͒̐́s̩͚̤t̲̘͖͉̻̯̏̉ͧͭ̉̎ͮ̀a͉̺̩ͧ͋ͤ͆̈r̡͖̥̜͎,̮̦͔́ͧ͂̈̀ ͉͟a͙̜̮͓͈͈̾͊̈́͗͗̓͝n̹̬̽͒d̝̪̭̏ ͉̗͚̳̘̬̽̾̔́ͮ̏i̡͍ṅ̹̱̬̬̹̱ͯ ͎̠̪̞͎̦̰ͤ͂h̷͈͈͓̦͚̣͔̆͆͆͒̌ͫi̤̤͙̲͈̗s̼͚͇͕͗̌ ͕ͭͩ̍͛̅ȑ͌ͪ̈́͒͑i͞g̸̼̩̼̥̬̈́ͯͤh͐ͬ́t̫͕̏̅́ ̯̖͓͇͚̦̈́͗̄̽̏̉ͅh̛̓̊ͨà͈̘̩͑͒n͓͓͕͎d̑ ̠̳̤̩͇̠̓h͍̱̘̬͎ͨ̒̀̃e̴̟̭̻͕̗̘̙ͭ̾̌̇ͪ̊ͣ ͖͍͟h̺͐̃̂o̢͉̦l̎͋̌ͦͬ̈̚͏̟ḓ̥̠͍̪̚s͎̘̖͍͇̠̊͗ͫͩ̕ ͖̮͋͋ͮ͛ͧͧẗ̗́̑ͣ́h̳̪̣̦͔̬e͕ͪ̆͒̄ ̢͉̰̲̜͆̆͗̂C̠̩̤ä́ͤͦ͌̀ͯ̾̀n̷̘͇̭͈͇͑̑ͫ͑ͬḑ͉̇̚l̹̰̙̳̺ͩ̍͆͊ẹ̲̜̯ͧ̐͌ͯ̉ͣ͐ͅͅ ̡ͫW̡͉̬̙ͧ̽ḧ͚̳͕́ͅȍ̹̦͕̫̮͙̏s̤̗͓̺̰͕̓̃̂̕ẹ͓̭̳̮͌̾̊̉̊̔̋ͅ ̻͋ͩḺ͞i͈̘͙̲̺͕̪͒̾ͭğ̟̟͎̑͌ḩ͍͎̜ͫ̍t̩̥̦̘ͥ́͌ͧ́ͪ͂́ͅ ̱̜̗̬͚̺̞ͩ̾͐I͙̘͍ͮͅs̴̫̝̥ ̦͚̰̺S͖͑̽ͨ͑ͥ̚̚͡h̲͍̪̱̖͗ͦ̈̐͋a̪̔̿̆̎́d͔̻̞̫̹͒̊́o̹w̴͎̖̼̣̻.̝̹͇ ̝̟ͮͧ̐͑́̿Hͣͣ̉̉̈́҉͍̲͕̲̩̟͖î̹̞͎̳̮̖͕̍s ̠͈̣̇̒ͪ̍̄l͟eͯ̍ͦͫ͑ͩf̈́̉̐̾t̸͉̺̻̖̐̒͗̎͊ ͖̳̠̫͔̿̾ͧ͗͟h̟͔̟͇̱ͥ̊̏͒͜ͅa̝͔͖̰̦ͧ͌̈ͥͥͭ͆n͍͙̲̞͕̮̩͊͞d͎͙̟̭͔̯̘͆͂̆̐s̆ ̗͎̳͔̌ͦa͒̑̋̈r̖̞̥͓̭̆ͩ̊͆ͤ͟e͕̠̤͉̰̺͚͛ͫ̈́͌ s̙͈̩͎t̸ͣ̿ͮ̋a̘͎͎͂̇̃ͣi̫̻ͩ̆ņ̙̅ͥͪ̾e͖͕̱̯̤͙̋̾ͪ̕d̟̱̺ ̘̰̞͔̝̘̃͛w̤̬̺̦̥̗̕ỉ̜͕t̸̒ͧ͐ͩͮ̚h̨̼̲̣͕͔͕̠ͪ ̖̊ͯͮ̔ͬt͛͒̉̓hͭ̾ͤ̀́͛͞ḛ̱̟͙͍͓̂ͤ̊͐͐ ̦͇̺͔͛̃̊ͨ̑͂ͥb͇̪̘͚̺̊̿̎ͪ̇̐ͥl̶̘̘̟͖̦͕̺͌̇ͧͫ́ó̱̝̖ͧ̇̋o̪̬͞ḓ͙̗̫͉͍̦ ̶͓͇͈͍͓̈́̂̓̎ö͇͂̃̃͊͟f̑ͤ͑̇̃̽͏̮͙̯̝ ̜̤ͫ͂ͦ̒ͭ̈ͦA̙̟͋̀ͣͨͩͦͬm̘̟̹͊ ̙͕̟͓͈̠̩̃͛ͣ͐̚Ḍh̶̫̲̙̪̭͇͆a̲̣͍̭͕ͨ́̄ͨe̤̻̜̪̿ͪg̴̼͔̼̩͎ͧͫͨ̈ͣa͈͔͈͇̫̯r̝͙̘̙̎̓̉̑̔̽̐͘ͅ.̓̈́ͧ͏̦͇̜̱̰̘
̞̬͈͈ͅ
̹̯̻͖̠͔̮̍ͧ̑̃̏͛H̳͍̖̣̫̓iͬ̄̓̐̔̂̾҉s̼͖̦̱̲̝̫ͥͭ ͈͓̪̻̬̭͖̈́ͨͨ͐͗̆̔s͎̲̘̤̭̖͐͑͢i̩̖͉̠͖̙̪ͪx̧͐ͨ ̮͉͒̄̄ͤ̾͜ḿ̭̓̎̃͒́͡ȍ̆̔ͩͮͯͅu̢̼̮ͪ̂͛͛͋͌t̖̰̝͇̠ḥ̉͗s̘̼̩̗ ͇̖s̏̃ͨ̓pͥ̾̈́̍҉̖̣͈e̶͚̊̉̄ͮa͔͕̱̍ͪ̾ͦ̓̚̕ͅk̓ͣ̓͛ ̡͙̼̺̦̩͉̱ͥ̀̓ͤ͌i̻̲͍̤͉̒̏ͥ̇̿̊̏n̫̠͇̭͕͋ͥ͆ ͙̟̝̳̜̆̉ͪ̊d̟̭̓͑́i̮̫̭͔̫̽̋̂͌͐͐̋f̋̃ͧf̴̗e̵̪̘r̶͉̱̭̳̯̣̉̎ͫ̓̏ͧ͌ͅe͍͋̓̒ͫͨn̟̝̞̾̀ͅt̗̃ ͮ͏̭̦̼͈͓t̹͙͂̽̐̍ͦͧͅo̖̥͕̖̣̘ͧ͐ͪͦn̢͔̋̋̃ğ̥̪͉̱̳̗̉̿u͞e̢͍̫͚͚̓̌̀ͬ͗̒s̔͒ͣ̎̚͢,̥͕̩̗̇̀ ͕̭͓̹͇̤͝a̔n̫ͫͭ̆͘d̥̮̠̞̬̑͢ ̌͛ͫ̓ͤ͡tͬ̒ͧͮ́̓́h̑̏̐ͧ͟e ̷̻̲͖͈̒ͩ͌ͪͦ̿ṣ͛ͩ̈́̚͘ë̖̊̍͊̄̊v̞ė͚̼͉̬̮͕n̘̗͗ͫͨ̏ͧ͐t̯͎͈̳͉̫ͯͪͣ͌̆̅h̎̍̾҉̠̩͖̭̰ ̸̣̭͎̩̱̪̓s̃̆ḧ̘̭́̂ͪ̓̉̀ͣͅą͎̩l̷͈̘̭̟͓̞͛ͤ̚l̝̼̗̒̚ ͕̖̥͈͓̳̍ͫ̓̇͛̿́ͅs̒ͮͩ̂ͧ̓i̾̂͞ṅ̮̲͎̙̰͎̌̾̿͘g͈̜̹ͤ̒̎ ͓̪͕͍̘̥̙͑̀͗t͉̥̘̹͑͆̑h̗͚̻̜̱̥̃͋̉̃̌ȇ͇̭̘͔̠̜ͦ ̧̭̩̪ͦ̌ͧs͍̘̠̫̀ͭoͦ͋͏͙̤̳̠̭ͅn͈̥͈͓͍̤g̀͑͒҉̝͖̞̟ ̉̇͆̊t̫̜̍͋̈́͂h̹̤̱͖͌̓̏̅͋̿a̬̦͎̣͍͜ẗ̗͕̗̙́̑ͩ͐̌̚ ̤͇̫̲͓͉̦͢ȅ̓̊̃n̜̠̝͔̪͆̊̏̕d̗̩͈̟ͯ̑ͩͣs̘̞͎̖̝ͬ̇̒͡ ͖͎̯̜̋t̢̮͂hͫ̊̒ͦ͝ȩ̱̜̙͓͉͙̖̉́͒ͭ ̳͕̕ē̗ͥ̄̾ͥ̂́a͎̰̙͕̮͇͒͐ͨ̇r͈̩͓̥̠̜̐̅͌͑ͥ̚ͅt̰̥̳̙͉̄h̢̫ͥ̈̿͋̀.̨̍ͯ ̳̩͕̠̱̳͟
̼̰̰́̓̋̿ͧ͆
̭̦͙̘̻ͨ̈́T͙̘̹͒ͨ́ͤ́ẖ͇͐ͮͨ̏̕e̝̗̠͗͌́̿̑̽̐ ͍̝̞̙͜N̯͉͚͕̝̣ͨ͆ͅe̜̼͎ͫ̓̿͑̏ͦ͢z̮͇̘͍̼̲p̍̓̇͆ͬ͡ẽ̠̬̖̪͋̂̍ͭͣ̊r̩̞̮̯͔ͦ̒d̘̭ͤͪ͗̽ͯiͨ̓̆̇̍̐ͨ͏͕͔a͙̜̜̣n͖̩̝̦͚̯ ̖̠̩͚̩̣͒͐͐ͧ͂͌ͦ͟h̟͚̮͕̠̪̿ͪ͊͠i̬ͪ͛ͥ͞v͂͆ͬ̌ͧe͇͙ͤ-͕̠ͩ̂̏̑m̩͙̟̤ͫ͟į̥̫͚̇̔̃̊ͣ͊ͩͅn̺̣͗́͢d̪̄̎̄̍͊̈͌ͅ ̩͚̱̠ͬ͐ͦ͒̉ͮo͓̝͖͙͓f̚ ̡̃̐ͪ̉ć̨͉̟̱ͨ͛͒̚h͕̪̦̣̩̃ä́͆͋͋҉̜̭̞̬̳̘ǫ̼͇̙͊ͯ̍̽͆̿͛s̶̱̖̱̤̗̫̋̓ͣ̑͂̚.̶̞̟͙̜̙̓ͥ̇̈́
̬͚̪̥̤̆̋̒̀ͅ
͎̿͆ͬ̕Ẓ̫̝̖̞̐̈ͯA̖̩̘̓ͫ͊L͎̟͇̤̥̽̀ͥͣ̑G̭͓̺͕ͨ͂̆͆̆͡Ō̐̂̇̀

[Metal Vendetta]

H̢͈͙̳̪̒̋̊ͧͬ͑̆̊̄̾E͌̆̈͋ͥ̑̋̇̊́ͥ̅͐̊͠҉̘̰̫̞͔̺̼̗̹̬͚͝ͅ ̡̜͖̟͎̠̦̖̲̯͎ͨ͂ͮ͌͆͠ͅͅC̵̊̾̽̆̈́ͤ́͏͙͍̳̣͓͎̱̥͔̫̼̬̫͈͎͕̲̝͞O̶̓̎͛̊͂͡҉̩͔̥͈̣̘ͅM̧̤̹̟͎̮̭̹̘͎̦͙̘̻͕ͤ̏ͫͤ͜͜͠͞Eͪ͌́̍͆͊̉͌̐͐ͤͦ̋ͧͪ͆͝҉̷̱̞͔͙̮̝ͅS̼͚̜̀͛̍̿͐̋ͩ̉̈̀̌̑̐̽̽̋͘͢͢ͅ

[Kaylee]

That is impressive! {will firebug it tomorrow to see how it works}

[bumblemusprime]

SHOGGOTHS!

The Mormon leadership have ****** it up lately with Proposition 8. That reputation as a smiling, harmless bunch of whitebreads sucks when it's married to the reputation of bigotry.

[Jack Cade]

Nah, it's your default position of respecting other people's beliefs (no matter how insane or wacky they might be) that takes the effort. From my point of view, dismissing all religion as either actively evil or useless is a surprisingly easy attitude to maintain - I don't have to bother myself trying to understand any of the (deliberately obtuse) nonsense they spout, for example. Even if there was a religion that was completely non-harmful and promoted peace and happiness throughout the world (ha!), it would still be a load of **** because "magic man in the sky said so" is not a valid reason for anything and neither is "it says in my holy book..."

Still think you've got it completely the wrong way round. For one thing, I don't necessarily respect other people's beliefs. I have no more respect for 'magic man in the sky' than you do. As far as I can see, faith is, by definition, irrational belief.

But to actually oppose something takes a negative emotional investment I prefer to reserve for people who actually do harm. True enough, you can occupy this position with little *intellectual* effort - intolerance is fundamentally lazy, after all. But it's still *emotionally* charged. You actively dislike/despise/despair of all religions, while I don't really think much (let alone worry) about the ones that aren't currently a threat.

To put it another way, I don't necessarily care if people are wrong or have loopy ideas as long as their resulting behaviour is decent. It doesn't mean I make the effort to *respect* those loopy ideas.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

What's wrong with negative emotions?

[Metal Vendetta]

Still think you've got it completely the wrong way round. For one thing, I don't necessarily respect other people's beliefs. I have no more respect for 'magic man in the sky' than you do. As far as I can see, faith is, by definition, irrational belief.

Okay, so we're broadly in agreement there.

But to actually oppose something takes a negative emotional investment I prefer to reserve for people who actually do harm.

Like I said above, I don't go around seeking out Buddhists and persecuting them. I work with people of all kinds of religions and if I went around dissing them because of ther beliefs I'd find myself out of a job pretty sharpish. Doesn't mean I have to give their beliefs any respect though.

True enough, you can occupy this position with little *intellectual* effort - intolerance is fundamentally lazy, after all.

Tolerance and intolerance are interesting concepts, I think. I tolerate the annoying kid on the bus who keeps kicking the back of my seat, but it doesn't mean I approve of his annoying behaviour. Likewise I tolerate my religious co-workers even if I think their faith is bat**** mental - having my own views about a religion isn't intolerance.

But it's still *emotionally* charged. You actively dislike/despise/despair of all religions, while I don't really think much (let alone worry) about the ones that aren't currently a threat.

To be honest there are whole months that go by when I don't think about Buddhism at all, but when I do think about it, I try to look beyond the surface. I don't think it's a bad idea to look at a religion's place in history before considering my opinion, especially since no-one's rewritten the rulebook since the last atrocity. You don't think that has the same importance, fine, but that doesn't mean you have to bring Littlejohn into it.

To put it another way, I don't necessarily care if people are wrong or have loopy ideas as long as their resulting behaviour is decent. It doesn't mean I make the effort to *respect* those loopy ideas.

We seem to be arguing to the same point here, except I'm not interrogating you over your lack of *respect*.

[Kaylee]

What's wrong with negative emotions?

It leads to the Dark Side!

Thought I'd get the Yoda quote in before anybody else

[saysadie]

They have better cookies.

[Best First]

You don't think that has the same importance, fine, but that doesn't mean you have to bring Littlejohn into it.

It might be insensitive, about which I couldn't really give a ****

Make your mind up. Sheesh.

[Metal Vendetta]

There's a difference between a blunt answer to a simple question and an ad hominem.

[Best First]

There's a difference between a blunt answer to a simple question and an ad hominem.

Yes there is, but the nature of the attack is not the salient point is it? Its the offence, and on the general point of offending people online that i am referring to , about which you now seem to be complaining of due to your logic being equated to that of Richard Littlejohn.

But my understanding of your attitude on this matter was that it ran along the lines of;

"I'm sorry, but Captain Give-a-**** has seen the Give-a-**** symbol high over the skies of Give-a-**** City, and has had to leave the Give-a-**** Cave in his Give-a-****mobile. Please leave a message if you think he really gives a **** about people getting upset online."

Like Karl says, i am intrigued as to how people think - and i there seem to be some rather fundamental contradictions in your stance here.

[Kaylee]

I got quoted in a debate!

Time for a Victory Burrito...

[Professor Smooth]

All this talk about Islam lately has made me want to join the conversation. Please let me know if I sound like a ****. I'd like to get it out of my system here, rather than spew more garbage in "the real."

Women's rights.

For all the talk about how the parts of Islam that seem to run counter to women's rights, all I can think of is, "no matter how well intentioned, it's nobody's choice except for the individual women themselves." Rights are, at least in theory, not something that can be given or taken away by others.

So, if a Muslim woman chooses to cover her hair or face, then it has to be her choice. Not her family's choice. Not her husband's choice.

If a Muslim woman is afraid for her safety, and wants to go out in public only when a male escort is available, then that's her choice. It can't (shouldn't) be made for her.

When I hear comments about how not all Muslims are so restrictive, I always wait for the next few sentences. Either "I let my wife do this," or "I don't make my wife or daughter do that." The other side of the coin is "My husband or father let's me/doesn't make me..." That's infuriating to me.

Look, there is some absurdly terrible stuff in each of the Big Three holy books. There is a great deal of absurdly horrible stuff that has sprung up out of those books. But I will not judge whole groups of people based on what's written in those books. Because nobody. Christian, Muslim, or Jew can follow everything that's written in those books to the letter. People pick and choose. So-called "moderates" seem to take the positive aspects while leaving out the negative. Please note that I know "positive" and "negative" are very subjective, but I'm almost positive (heh heh) that you know what I mean. "The stuff about being kind to others is important. The stuff about stoning people who work on Saturday and curse at their parents? Not so much." So-called "extremists" do the opposite. "Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that says that we should be peaceful, but dammit, these parts say we can kill and **** these people and I would LOVE to do that!"

Modern Islam is, by and large, not nearly as moderate as Modern Christianity. Excluding the extremists (on both "sides,") Islam is more restrictive than Christianity.

Is every Muslim a terrorist? No. Are most? No. Are there still a LOT of things in modern Islam that people can (and should) take issue with?

Here's where I think I'm going to get in trouble. YES. I don't need to be AFRAID of Muslims to take issue with Islam, or even with individual Muslims. I don't think that (even having the option of) taking away individual rights should be accepted as a "cultural difference."

Oh, but wait, I've ignored the pedophile priests in the Catholic church, haven't I?

I'm sure this idea has been floated before, but I'll just toss it out there. I don't think that being a pedophile is something you can help. I doubt that many people just up and think, "You know what? I think I'm gonna **** kids. See how that works out for me." I'll bet that some people who start to get feelings that they KNOW they'll be condemned for try to hide it. But how? They could resist the urges. But as they get older, people will start to wonder why they rarely (if ever) date and why they aren't married. They could get married, but that might lead to problems down the line. So, they have to find a way that they can stay celibate and not arouse (hee hee) suspicion. And so, they decide, "I'll become a priest!"

And it worked for a long time, it worked! But repressing those feelings for so long...forever, people slip. And a lot of people DID slip. But, thinking it was an isolated incident, it always got covered up. That's the thing about cover-ups, rarely do people go around talking about them. So, it's possible that nobody knew the scope of the problem until it was too late.

Of course, by now, it's almost become a cliche. So, in all honesty, there are probably some people that have become priests JUST so they could molest children.

But, keep in mind, the Church doesn't try to say that what these people did was ALRIGHT. They don't say that they were doing God's work. The scandal is that it was covered up, not that it was approved. So, while the buracracy of the Church deserves whatever punishment it gets, it's not really a problem with the core theology of Christianity.

[Metal Vendetta]

But my understanding of your attitude on this matter was that it ran along the lines of;

"I'm sorry, but Captain Give-a-**** has seen the Give-a-**** symbol high over the skies of Give-a-**** City, and has had to leave the Give-a-**** Cave in his Give-a-****mobile. Please leave a message if you think he really gives a **** about people getting upset online."

Like Karl says, i am intrigued as to how people think - and i there seem to be some rather fundamental contradictions in your stance here.

Well first off, I'm not upset, I just think that comparing someone to a Daily Fail journo is, well, a bit "Godwin-lite" and it's not really addressing the point, is it? Wheras you and Jack have been getting your knickers in a twist just because I posted a picture representing a historical event. Personally I still don't see how it's insulting to anyone to suggest that the events of 9/11 are responsible for the crappy treatment muslims get in the west, but I'm sure you'll be able to fabricate a bit more outrage and call me a racist again.

If instead of pointing out that 9/11 happened, I'd said "It's because you are a terrorist, yes, you personally want to destroy the west" I could understand the comparison. As it is, you seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

[Best First]

Personally I still don't see how it's insulting to anyone to suggest that the events of 9/11 are responsible for the crappy treatment muslims get in the west, but I'm sure you'll be able to fabricate a bit more outrage and call me a racist again.

I'd probably just continue to point out the truth numbing simplicity of this statement and the unneccessary manner in which you presented it (which again you are trying to revise as you go along).

At no point have i disputed that it happened (duh) or that it plays a role in the treatement of Muslims (as opposed to being the sole reason, which i heavily dispute, and you have said, intentionally or not, at least twice).

I could understand the comparison. As it is, you seem to be comparing apples and oranges.

Nope - you are complaining about someone being off with you in a debate, despite being deliberately provocative to others in the same debate (and despite previously seeming to admit it was insensetive, you are now saying it wasn't... in the same topic), and showing an equally mature attitude to anyone who had the temerity to call you on it.

Because what i would prefer, regardless of the internet or not, is that we could have debates like this in a manner in which people are not driven out of the topic in a place where people should largeky consider themselves among friends. Which is not to say that difficult points cannot be made, but that anyone with a reasonable level of maturity should be able to see that the manner in which you have taken on religion in this topic, even at this microcosmic level, has proved counter productive.

That and watching someone saying ' i don't care about offending people' and 'i'm the uberbastard' and then complaining about being compared to someone who they (presumably) don't like is rather cringe inducing.

I mean if you want to be The Uberbastard - surely Littlejohn's the walking definition.

[Yaya]

All this talk about Islam lately has made me want to join the conversation. Please let me know if I sound like a ****. I'd like to get it out of my system here, rather than spew more garbage in "the real."

Women's rights.

For all the talk about how the parts of Islam that seem to run counter to women's rights, all I can think of is, "no matter how well intentioned, it's nobody's choice except for the individual women themselves." Rights are, at least in theory, not something that can be given or taken away by others.

So, if a Muslim woman chooses to cover her hair or face, then it has to be her choice. Not her family's choice. Not her husband's choice.

Interestingly, just saw this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... ds-newsxml


I agree with you. Doing anything that Islam requires for the sake of a person is fruitless. I mean, why do it then? In Islam, everything that you do is for God's sake. You are kind to your parents because it pleases God. You are good to your children because it pleases God. This is the underlying motivation. If this is not present, like in the case of the author of this article, then of course, instead of feeling peace you will feel frustration. These women who are British converts, what they are saying about doing things for God, they understand the true spirit of the faith. With this understanding, the wearing of hijab becomes an action of liberation and of attaining peace instead of a restriction of rights.

Trying to accept the doctrines, rules, and regulations of Islam without first understanding why they are done is pointless. If I were a child and my parents placed all these restrictions on me without first instilling in me the purpose for which we do them, I think I might react in a similar way.

Faith first, laws second. If there is no faith, then why follow laws?

[Best First]

Faith first, laws second. If there is no faith, then why follow laws?

Can i just check you mean the laws of a religion, not all laws right?

[Professor Smooth]

Doing anything that Islam requires for the sake of a person is fruitless. I mean, why do it then? In Islam, everything that you do is for God's sake. You are kind to your parents because it pleases God. You are good to your children because it pleases God.

I'm not quite sure I understand.

I am kind to my parents out of gratitude for everything they've done for me, often at the expense of themselves.

I am good to people (largely) because I hope that others would do the same for me.

When I sold some of the big ticket items in my collection to help a co-worker pay for his son's heart surgery, it was because... Well, I don't know. Because some things just seem important?