So Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize

[Yaya]

Could you imagine a United States where governmental power is devolved to state level, where each individual state is represented at an international level and matters of state are resolved by referendum?

Now, could you imagine it ever coming to pass?

No? Neither could I.

You think the economy is borked now?

I never mentioned economy. I was just outlining a process whereby the definition of a democracy in the US would be more in-line with Yaya's interpretation.

As BB Shockwave said, a true democracy would be totally ineffective for national-level government, due to the vast number of participants in any decision-making process, which is why there are multiple layers of government where each layer's members are elected as representatives of (usually geographic) divisions of the immediately lower layer.

In theory, having representatives might seem like it would simplify things, but I was speaking more in terms of letting the popular vote be the driving force instead of an electoral college.

How much more pure in terms of democracy can you get than a popular vote? That really is by the people, for the people.

In the end, you still need watchdogs to oversee that there isn't any funny business going on, no matter what kind of democracy you have. And I just don't think we have enough regulation in goverment (we sure as hell have enough of it in medicine, speaking from personal experience. Why not governement?).

[Professor Smooth]

A friend and I once speculated about how the US would function if everything was decided via popular vote. It wasn't pretty.

9/11/01 happens:

Somebody suggests we go to war.

90-something percent of the country votes to go to war.

After a few months, the war's not going so well. Lot's of casualties, objective's not being accomplished. Rest of the world's pissed.

Somebody suggests we pull out of the war.

By a vote of maybe 60-40 the US pulls out of the war.

It would be like that for everything. Knee jerk responses and mob mentality would rule. The country would go bankrupt and/or be at war with itself within a few years.

It seems that people can't handle the limited democracy they have now, giving the masses MORE power is a recipe for disaster.

[Shanti418]

Texas? Shanti, you'd better not be behind this...

All the blather about what Obama has failed to do is crap. The guy has been stymied at every turn by Republicans.

Conservative Republican politicians intimating that Texas would secede from the union are doing nothing more than throwing red meat to their constituents. Drumming up the base, as it were, to satiate the independent "We're huge and used to be our own country" spirit of most Texans. It would never within a hundred miles of getting anywhere of course, but people like to think so.



In America, we have a representative democracy, NOT a pure democracy, for precisely the reasons Smooth mentioned. We elect people hypothetically from our community to represent us in a nice little bureaucratic hierarchy of power, and then we EXPECT them to operate independently of every single gust of public opinion. We elect people for how they will react to the problems that haven't happened yet just as much as their policy stances.

Now in modern America, the people fight paper tigers, for the freedom Americans hold most dear is their freedom to be ignorant. And the campaign financing/lobbying virulent in politics is poisoning the whole system.

But you know what? No one would have predicted Barack Obama. That, BB, was most definitely something that WAS caused by the masses, and we'll just have to see how it goes. It's like, America's a car, and no one has REALLY looked under her hood for a while. Now we hired this Barack Obama guy to be a mechanic, and it may very well be that the pistons are rusted and starter is missing, but at least we know we've got a honest mechanic.

As far as the Nobel, I basically agree with Smooth and the general consensus. Additionally, the relationship between the Nobel committee's ideology and Barack Obama's foriegn policy just happened to be kismet (take of that what you will), so they personally just wanted to recognize this guy who is basically espousing the types of positions that they've had erotic dreams over. But that's only in addition to the other reasons that have been enunciated.

[bumblemusprime]

Could you imagine a United States where governmental power is devolved to state level, where each individual state is represented at an international level and matters of state are resolved by referendum?

Now, could you imagine it ever coming to pass?

No? Neither could I.

You think the economy is borked now?

Something like that would likely cause a second civil war (or World War 3) the first time Pittsburgh refused to ship steel to Detroit, or New Orleans blockaded the Mississippi River.

It's an interesting thought, though, that things like the European and African Union are kind of the by-products of little nation-states finally realizing that they have to get along and keep the peace on the continent. The US could have very well gone that way during the Articles of Confederation days or if the Civil War turned out differently.

[BB Shockwave]

But you know what? No one would have predicted Barack Obama. That, BB, was most definitely something that WAS caused by the masses, and we'll just have to see how it goes.

Sorry, but you really believe that? I frankly saw it coming when he was announced to run for presidental candidacy. We already knew the democrats gonna win (that was given), and Obama was obviously a choice (in part, of course - I'm not saying the man is not a good politician) to occupy the minorities for years. Now they are all happy that the USA has an african-american president (should have happened sooner, IMHO), which makes them forget - for a while - that the country is still in the gutter and the average minority man/woman still has as little chances of getting that good job / goverment position as before.

I really hope Obama actually does something about this, not act just like a politician enjoying his power (frankly, what did guys like Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell ever do in their high positions to help african americans?)

[Yaya]

But you know what? No one would have predicted Barack Obama. That, BB, was most definitely something that WAS caused by the masses, and we'll just have to see how it goes.

Sorry, but you really believe that? I frankly saw it coming when he was announced to run for presidental candidacy. We already knew the democrats gonna win (that was given), and Obama was obviously a choice (in part, of course - I'm not saying the man is not a good politician) to occupy the minorities for years. Now they are all happy that the USA has an african-american president (should have happened sooner, IMHO), which makes them forget - for a while - that the country is still in the gutter and the average minority man/woman still has as little chances of getting that good job / goverment position as before.

I really hope Obama actually does something about this, not act just like a politician enjoying his power (frankly, what did guys like Condoleeza Rice or Colin Powell ever do in their high positions to help african americans?)

Before he got elected, I thought the Republicans were using Obama as their greatest weapon to fight off Clinton, whom they saw as the real threat.

When Obama got the ticket, I was deflated. I never thought America would vote him in, that they weren't ready for a black president. Four years of McCain/Palin flashed before my eyes.

But then, somehow, someway, Obama won. I think the Republicans underestimated the youth vote.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Could you imagine a United States where governmental power is devolved to state level, where each individual state is represented at an international level and matters of state are resolved by referendum?

Now, could you imagine it ever coming to pass?

No? Neither could I.

You think the economy is borked now?

Something like that would likely cause a second civil war (or World War 3) the first time Pittsburgh refused to ship steel to Detroit, or New Orleans blockaded the Mississippi River.

It's an interesting thought, though, that things like the European and African Union are kind of the by-products of little nation-states finally realizing that they have to get along and keep the peace on the continent. The US could have very well gone that way during the Articles of Confederation days or if the Civil War turned out differently.

Yes 150 years ago that would be entirely different. In today's limited resources/highpowered weaponry age whoever has the biggest guns and the most skill with them tends to win the argument.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Bollox, a bunch of 'Muslims' with cheap AKs are doing a good job of seeing off the high tech muscle...

[Professor Smooth]

Bollox, a bunch of 'Muslims' with cheap AKs are doing a good job of seeing off the high tech muscle...

Exactly. With all the billions of dollars spent on ultra-powerful jets and rail guns, the US still hasn't won a major conflict (decisively) since long before my parents were born.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

You're also assuming that people would continue to "play nice" in war as it were. Should there be a civil war once again it would be a free for all. So the whole Geneva Convention would go right out the window.


In essence you'd have terrorists with bigger and badder weapons.

[The Last Autobot]

So the whole Geneva Convention would go right out the window.

Because its always respected by the US