Doctor Who - Series 4

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed May 07, 2008 2:51 pm

Also - I think Rose is deadinated. Which is why we're getting disembodied ghostiness.

Post by **Best First** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:03 pm

hmm - i dunno - its very reminiscant of the Cybermen innit? And they were not deaded.

then again they never briefly popped up on screen screaming.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:34 pm

Brendocon wrote:
Best First wrote:er - wasn't the Sontaran response to that that all Earthlings look the same to him?

implying that Sontarans are not in fact identical and they were not meant to look exactly the same and its just the perspective of another race?

or did i imagine that?
That was what I thought, too.

And moi.

Best First wrote: i googlisiseded the Medusa Casacde and there was some other interesting (hmm) stuff - there have been 2 races that have lost their worlds (plus Gallifry) when that MC has been mentioned. .

Hmm. The Master mentioned that the Doctor had sealed the rift at the Medusa Cascade. The soothsayer also mentioned it.

The Adipose world and the Pyrovillian world are both lost.

Something is on Donna's back.

"She is returning."

Ten's song will end soon.

Shadow Proclamation?

Much is brewing...

Post by **Best First** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:42 pm

Milk no sugar.

Also - i reckon Donna will die.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri May 09, 2008 11:24 am

Interesting googling the Medusa Cascade...sounds like it could be this season's arc (beyond Rose, of course).

Though also found a lot of posts suggesting that this season's theme could be breeding - the Adipose, Pyrovillians, Ood and Sontaran storylines all revolved around breeding, and what with the Doctor having a daughter next episode it does seem to be a recurring motif to the series.

Post by **Best First** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:06 pm

Best First wrote:i googlisiseded the Medusa Casacde and there was some other interesting (hmm) stuff - there have been 2 races that have lost their worlds (plus Gallifry) when that MC has been mentioned and equally it has been pointed out there seems to be a bit of a procreation bent to this series - The Fat Kids (TM), The Lava Monkeys (TM) and now Mr Potato Army (TM). Oh and next week its is Time Sprog (TM) time.

echo, echo

as an aisde tho i think its a bit of a streach to say the Ood story was about breeding.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:21 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_arcs ... s_Four_arc

Four takes a somewhat different approach to the previous series. There are no big binding words like 'Bad Wolf', 'Torchwood', or 'Mr Saxon'. This time, it's cumulative: an element from every episode — whether it's a person, a phrase, a question, a planet, or a mystery — builds up to the grand finale. Russell T Davies says: "You've got to watch and listen closely. It's been seeded for a long time, with small but vital references going all the way back to series one. And remember the Master, in "Last of the Time Lords", mentioning the Medusa Cascade? Oh, that's going to come back to haunt us...

Just lost a good twenty minutes reading that page... awesome spot on "Mister Saxon" anagraming to "Master No Six". Though am slightly concerned by the apparent need to seed the notion of time travel putting events in non-linear order, given that... well, it's a show about time travel.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Fri May 09, 2008 12:31 pm

Best First wrote:echo, echo

d'oh

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri May 09, 2008 4:47 pm

The following may just be a red herring regarding the nature of the Medusa Cascade:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/comicmak ... 3011802410

as created by the writer of tomorrow's episode.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/news/ ... 09_news_01

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Sun May 11, 2008 5:14 pm

The Doctor's Daughter

Not a bad episode, very reminiscent of early classic Who in terms of set-up and production. Nice to see the Time War being brought up, too.

But it's kind of driving me a bit batty having to try and think around the plotholes...

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun May 11, 2008 7:47 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:But it's kind of driving me a bit batty having to try and think around the plotholes...

There were only a few dozen, weren't there?

This Medusa Cascade thing. If the Master witnessed it prior to becoming John Simm (which would place it before/during the Time War in his personal chronology), and assuming it happens at some point in the Doctor's future... that means, theoretically, there's no reason he can't bump into pre-TW incarnations of other Gallifreyans. Doesn't it? And isn't that what they've basically implied can't happen?

My brain hurts.

Am rewatching season 1 at the mo. I'd forgotten how much I fell in love with Billie.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sun May 11, 2008 8:46 pm

spoilery spoilers...

Great acting in the latest ep. The 7 day war was a neat twist. Georgia was yummy.

Brendocon wrote: This Medusa Cascade thing. If the Master witnessed it prior to becoming John Simm (which would place it before/during the Time War in his personal chronology), and assuming it happens at some point in the Doctor's future... that means, theoretically, there's no reason he can't bump into pre-TW incarnations of other Gallifreyans. Doesn't it? And isn't that what they've basically implied can't happen?

I think the Timelords were wiped off the timeline and don't exist in the past, future or anywhere.

Brendocon wrote:Am rewatching season 1 at the mo. I'd forgotten how much I fell in love with Billie.

Yeah, it's easy to forget she was very good. I liked Freema in series 3, but I remember then rewatching the earlier seasons at the time and realising Billie was a lot more... natural, I guess.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 11, 2008 9:25 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
Brendocon wrote: This Medusa Cascade thing. If the Master witnessed it prior to becoming John Simm (which would place it before/during the Time War in his personal chronology), and assuming it happens at some point in the Doctor's future... that means, theoretically, there's no reason he can't bump into pre-TW incarnations of other Gallifreyans. Doesn't it? And isn't that what they've basically implied can't happen?
I think the Timelords were wiped off the timeline and don't exist in the past, future or anywhere.

Except Doctor #5 in Time Crash?

Also, nothing to say that the closing of the rift in the Medusa Cascade as mentioned by the Master has to have happened in the Doctor's personal future. This continued hinting about the Medusa Cascade business could be leading up to a completely different event, such as the rift re-opening due to, say, a year's worth of paradox, multiple occasions of exploitation of the rift in Cardiff, a human with the Time Vortex at her control committing genocide of the Daleks plus reviving dead people as immortals.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun May 11, 2008 9:51 pm

Rebis wrote:
spiderfrommars wrote:
Brendocon wrote: This Medusa Cascade thing. If the Master witnessed it prior to becoming John Simm (which would place it before/during the Time War in his personal chronology), and assuming it happens at some point in the Doctor's future... that means, theoretically, there's no reason he can't bump into pre-TW incarnations of other Gallifreyans. Doesn't it? And isn't that what they've basically implied can't happen?
I think the Timelords were wiped off the timeline and don't exist in the past, future or anywhere.
Except Doctor #5 in Time Crash?

And the Master post-reversion last year... I mean okay, I get that he survived by not being a Gallifreyan, but surely something that purges them from the entire universal cosmic chronology would have zapped the one running around in the early 21st century.

Unless the harmonic satellite thing that blocked the Doctor from sensing him interfered with whatever...

At least half the point of Lost a thousand things that don't necessarily make sense yet... and remembers to actually address/occasionally acknowledge them.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Sun May 11, 2008 11:40 pm

Rebis wrote:
Except Doctor #5 in Time Crash?

But Doctor #5 is the past self of the Last of the Time Lords, only survivor of the Time War. Or are you saying Doctors 11, 12 etc. wouldn't exist either?

Brendocon wrote:
At least half the point of Lost a thousand things that don't necessarily make sense yet... and remembers to actually address/occasionally acknowledge them.

I still don't buy that Doctor Who has more "plot holes" than your average ongoing TV serial and thank goodness it's not subject to the padding that catergorises most.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:02 am

spiderfrommars wrote:
Rebis wrote:
Except Doctor #5 in Time Crash?

But Doctor #5 is the past self of the Last of the Time Lords, only survivor of the Time War. Or are you saying Doctors 11, 12 etc. wouldn't exist either?

What I'm saying is that I disagree that the Time War resulted in the Time Lords being erased from time, as that would necessarily imply that all their personal histories would need to have been as well. Otherwise, all the Doctor would have to do is, apart from perhaps finding a work-around for travelling into Gallifrey's past, would be to journey to a point in spacetime where he knew a fellow Time Lord will have been and tell them everything he can think of that might have aided them in the Time War, thus altering the course of events more in favour of the Time Lords.

The Master's survival, I take to be due to his escape to the end of Time where, as the Doctor stated, no Time Lord had ever gone that far, and so the fallout of the Time War will not have reached, or will be so attenuated by that point that it would have had no noticeable effect. Or perhaps the fallout damaged his Tardis beyond repair, he recognised the cause and hid himself as a human to avoid being 'damaged' himself.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:20 am

Rebis wrote:
Otherwise, all the Doctor would have to do is, apart from perhaps finding a work-around for travelling into Gallifrey's past, would be to journey to a point in spacetime where he knew a fellow Time Lord will have been and tell them everything he can think of that might have aided them in the Time War, thus altering the course of events more in favour of the Time Lords.

Well you could say that the Time Lords - on Gallifrey - lived outside time.

As for travelling back in time to meet a fellow Time Lord - doesn't that go against the main Time Lord code or something. ie. interfering with time?

And couldn't altering history possibly make things worse and/or bring the Reapers to the party?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:41 am

spiderfrommars wrote:Well you could say that the Time Lords - on Gallifrey - lived outside time.

Hence the necessity of a work-around

As for travelling back in time to meet a fellow Time Lord - doesn't that go against the main Time Lord code or something. ie. interfering with time?

And couldn't altering history possibly make things worse and/or bring the Reapers to the party?

Possibly, but given that the 9th Doctor mentioned how the Time Lords would prevent the Reapers' appearance and that they themselves instigated the Doctor's involvement in Genesis of the Daleks, I'd say they'd let the rules bend for their own survival.

Maybe the reason there are no more Time Lords is due to the Reapers appearing at the end of the Time War and sterilising all but a small handful of the combatants.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon May 12, 2008 10:04 am

Is there a rule about TimeLords not being able to bump into past versions of each other?

Insomuch as they backtrack across another's personal chronology? Each meeting has to be in the same order for both or something? Whereby the Doctor can't now go back and meet the Jacobi Master because he's already encountered him as Simm?

Would maybe help explain why he can't now go back and bump into the other Gallifreyans in their past adventures... they died alongside him, so it would be out of sequence? Or something?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:34 am

I don't think there's anything that really prevents them, aside from their own codes of conduct.

There have been many occasions when the Doctor has met his own past selves (usually caused by the Time Lords), but there's also the Five Doctors, where the Ainley Master became directly involved in events with several Doctors (also caused by the Time Lords).

On a slightly less regenerative note, the Simm Master also interacted (albeit more indirectly) with the 10th Doctor prior to the 10th Doctor meeting the Jacobi Master.

On the other hand, they do have their Blinovitch Limitation Effect, which is meant to prevent redo's, but then they can circumvent that if they want.

Basically, the writers/producers appear to be fast and loose with whether certain things can happen or not. And it mostly depends on how they want their plots to proceed.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am

Rebis wrote:On a slightly less regenerative note, the Simm Master also interacted (albeit more indirectly) with the 10th Doctor prior to the 10th Doctor meeting the Jacobi Master.

Yeah, this is part of what's got me shaky on the issue... what would have happened if the Doctor had actually bumped into Saxon prior to Utopia. Or did Saxon deliberately steer clear and act through agents knowing that time would go all skewy if he interacted again out of mutually-linear sequence.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:24 pm

I don't think anything skewy would've happened, but Saxon probably stayed away from the Doctor because although the Archangel Network prevented the Doctor from sensing Saxon, it probably wouldn't have prevented recognition at close proximity.

Then again, there's nothing to resolve the issue of why the Doctor couldn't sense Saxon between his arrival and the implementation of the Archangel Network. Unless Saxon arrived after Boomtown and had Archangel operational prior to The Christmas Invasion.

Post by **Best First** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:40 pm

She was bloody lovely.

what? Blinovitch Limitation Effect? Yeah, totally.

FIT!

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:46 pm

Good job they didn't bury her, innit?

And the Doctor didn't stay till the end of the ceremony? Why not? Did he leave the gas on or something?

And they were real quick to procreate the Doctor but not Martha or Donna...

GAAAAAH PLOTHOLES

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:04 pm

And the general bloke was exceptionally grey and craggy for somebody who was presumably a teenager only a week ago.

Who hid the layer of the map and why?

Don't ask questions - look at the fit bird. She's his daughter. Isn't that kewl?

I'm sure that she's technically his twin sister... though I suppose in a loose sense of the word, it's not wrong to say he's her father. Asexual reproduction. Timelords are like Transformers. She's gender neutral!

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:05 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:Good job they didn't bury her, innit?

Do we know that they even bury their dead?

Metal Vendetta wrote:And the Doctor didn't stay till the end of the ceremony? Why not? Did he leave the gas on or something?

By the time we saw Jenny lying in repose he seemed to be back in 'detached' mode.

Metal Vendetta wrote:And they were real quick to procreate the Doctor but not Martha or Donna...

They said "process them" but the Hath attacked right after the Doctor 'gave birth' to Jenny. Later in the city they mentioned their intention to make a squadron out of them in the morning. The point was addressed.

Brendocon wrote:And the general bloke was exceptionally grey and craggy for somebody who was presumably a teenager only a week ago.

Who said they were all born teenagers?

It'd be handy to grow ready made Generals.

Brendocon wrote:Who hid the layer of the map and why?

Me. For a laugh.

Post by **Best First** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:13 pm

i was kind of hoping that general lad would have been behind it all and been the last survivor of the original crew.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:30 pm

Best First wrote:i was kind of hoping that general lad would have been behind it all and been the last survivor of the original crew.

Mmm. Me too. It would have explained a lot (he killed the captain to kickstart a conflict because he didn't want to share the planet in the first place, manipulated the others, etc etc). But then he would have known what the source really was, so wouldn't have been in such a hurry to get to it as a weapon.

"Erm, yeah. The source. No, it's... it's nothing special. Let's not worry about that. Maybe after we've won the war we'll go and find out what that's all about... I've a feeling you'll like it."

:-/

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:35 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
Brendocon wrote:And the general bloke was exceptionally grey and craggy for somebody who was presumably a teenager only a week ago.
Who said they were all born teenagers?

It'd be handy to grow ready made Generals.

The technology they use to clone might be based along lines as realistic as Dolly the Sheep, where the DNA of the offspring is as old as of the parent and the machine automatically compensates for this age during the acceleration process. The General could then have been the descendant of one of the older colonists.

The fact that the Doctor, a male, produced Jenny, a female, brings up the question of whether, left to their own devices, there would have been any male humans left, as it's pretty easy to take male DNA and create female DNA from it (doubling the X chromosome), but a lot harder to make male DNA from female (where would the Y come from?).

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:40 pm

Rebis wrote:where would the Y come from?

From the plot holes! Of course! It all makes perfect sense now.

Oh, wait. Y. Not Why. Balls.