Monogamy Sucks

[Shanti418]

It's a social construction, and it serves no useful purpose.

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't have monogamy, I'm just saying I don't see why it has to be the dominant paradigm.

Sex and Love : Different Things.


I guess what I'm trying to say is: I have a woman, I love her with all my heart, I want her to be my emotional and spiritual partner for life (and the feelings are reciprocated), but you're saying I have to have sex with the same girl forever? Are you serious?

Obviously we could be swingers or something akin to that(which is really all I want), but it's going to take years to get there, when at this point the simple concept that I wouldn't go apeshit seeing her with someone else makes her want to cry.

I'm just not the jealous type. I mean if she cheated on me, if she lied to me, yeah. But if we have communication and honesty and trust and I'm there in the room, I think it would be fun.

We're on this planet once. I want to experince everything, sexuality included.



Am I crazy? Am I going to throw away a priceless relationship just for 101 ways to get my rocks off? Am I going to commit and marry and just deeply bury psycholgocially everything that doesn't fir with society's idea of what that entails?


Or perhaps I'm just wasted and did the internet intellectual equivalent of a "drunk dial". I just wanted some blokes to bounce some things off of, because when it comes to understanding the drama between thinking with your heart and thinking with your dick, only the afflicated understand.

[wideload]

If you make an open relationship work you will probably be the first.

well except for all those people w/ mustaches, shagged carpeting, and open silk shirts... they don't count

[Best First]

i think you need to get your escapades out the way before you 'settle down' with someone , rather than try and have both at the same time to be honest (not dismising that you need to find someone who 'does it for you' as part of the latter) .

One thing about being a bloke - you will ALWAYS be looking around to some extent, but there comes a time you have to decide whether notches on the bed post and 'trying things' is more important than building a genuine relationship with someone.

Sure there are a few people out there who probably live off the far end of the relationship scale, but i don't think this would work out for the vast majority - people are too insecure and needy at the end of the day (be honest, we are) to not get a bit screwed up by it i would suggest. Everything i have read about 'open relationships' and swinging (hey, i have spare time...) to me implies that its always one partner more than the other who is into it.

Life isn't just about experience, its also about making choices i guess. You can't 'experience everything' because sometimes one choice precludes another so you have to decide.

Maybe you are not ready to commit or, if she is not 'getting your rocks off' you may not be with the right girl?

Or maybe your mind is just addled by pr0n? I mean don't get me wrong i'd like to end up in a jacuzzie with three large breasted, tiny wasted women who are all hungry for my cock and balls but if i meet the right person for a relationship i am unlikley to put it on hold on the off chance this scenario might one day crop up (i could probably sacrifice the jacuzzi at a push).

Being a bloke - its complicated yet simple at the same time.

sorry if any of that is a bit blunt, all IMO natrully.

[Kaylee]

Can't add anything to what besty said

[Legion]

what he said.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

What BF said.

I think a time comes when u just want to share your lifes experiences with one other person. i dont feel sex with more than one partner is going to make that experience any better, perhaps only complicate the situation.

[Best First]

yeah, a consistant patner can often mean much better antics.

[spiderfrommars]

It sucks, but sometimes you've gotta come to terms with the fact that the person you've chosen is the only person you'll ever have sex with for the rest of your life ever. I take the piss out of all my hitched (and pr0n obsessed) mates for it all the time.

BF's post was full of win.

[Best First]

indeed - there is a lot to be said for having a chunk of your life as a single person.

"I'm just going to go and do...whatever i want, all the time"

but there's also a lot ot be said for having someone initimate to share life with.

Unless you are an Oxford Celebrity, like Dave, in which case i suspect you can just go out and click your hairy man fingers whenever you want some comely bed bucket to writhe around on top of you.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I used to click my fingers a fair bit, then, I got bored of it.
What was the point of clicking my fingers if I had noe to share the experience with, who actually gave a [composite word including 'f*ck'] about me?

[spiderfrommars]

but there's also a lot ot be said for having someone initimate to share life with.

Agreed.

Unless you are an Oxford Celebrity, like Dave, in which case i suspect you can just go out and click your hairy man fingers whenever you want some comely bed bucket to writhe around on top of you.

Ooh I wish.

You're right about the hairy man fingers tho.

[Best First]

Yeah, that's what vex's me about being 'on the pull' in the usual venues - its all just confidence and bluster, but not at all about getting to know someone.

i find it a bit shallow - check me out with my depth and stuff.

then again i have had loads of random shennanigans recently. ha.

But on a more pertinant note have met someone i quite like so have put a stop to all the other random shennanigans and am going to woo her all proper like cos she is lovely.

There will always be more random shennanigans to be had if it doesn't work out, but i don't think its worth f*cking about trying to keep you roptions open when you are keen on someone, cos if you do then you are not that keen in my opinion.

Time to drunk crash and burn post = 4 days.

[spiderfrommars]

Time to drunk crash and burn post = 4 days.

Promises, promises.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

*Pencils in the diary*

[angloconvoy]

Besters has a good point (or so the ladies say). I am getting so goddamn sick of random sex and if I met someone who was actually holding my interest I'd take that over "experiences" which rarely live up to the fantasy. I was even thinking today I woud love to swear off sex until I met someone cool enough (which is realistically not going to happen unless I meet her real quick and she doesn't live half way round the world). That said, I met a wicked lass at the weekend who I would certainly like to get to know better.

[Shanti418]

i think you need to get your escapades out the way before you 'settle down' with someone , rather than try and have both at the same time to be honest (not dismising that you need to find someone who 'does it for you' as part of the latter) .

That's the thing. I'm 27. I first started seeing this girl when I was....eh....22? We've broke up twice over that time, the first time because we weren't working, and the second time because of exactly what you are saying: I needed to get my wild oats out. C'mon baby, let's get away. I'm going to go on an escapade. [/paulaabdul]
But we started up again in May, basically because I realized that although all the random girls were nice, there weren't as nice as love, unwavering emotional support, intellectual connection, and someone to baby you when you have the cold. So I feel I've done the escapades, and during the escapades, I met a lot of nonmonogamous couples who were as happy, communicative, and trusting as normal couples if not more.

Sure there are a few people out there who probably live off the far end of the relationship scale, but i don't think this would work out for the vast majority - people are too insecure and needy at the end of the day (be honest, we are) to not get a bit screwed up by it i would suggest. Everything i have read about 'open relationships' and swinging (hey, i have spare time...) to me implies that its always one partner more than the other who is into it.

I agree, but I feel like I'm out on that far end of the scale. It's just hard finding someone who is similarly "out there," and then if finding someone "out there" is REALLY worth it if you have nothing else in common except for being "out there." Hence why my line of thinking back in May was "Instead of finding someone who matches up with me sexually and then trying to make everything else work, I'm going to be with someone where everything else works, and then see if I can improve our sex life."
Also, most surveys and studies of swingers I've seen show that while the man is most likely to initiate it, the woman is most likely to want to do it again, while the man, after actually doing it, has lots of second thoughts.

Life isn't just about experience, its also about making choices i guess. You can't 'experience everything' because sometimes one choice precludes another so you have to decide.

I understand that, and I understand that my line of thinking is colored by "have cake and eat it too" ideology. It's just hard for me, given my academic brainwashing, to accept the status quo of loving commited relationship = sexual monogamy. The relationship of love, sex, and marriage has been entirely fluid over the course of human history, with multiple variation in different socities, and all of these variations hinging on mostly pragmatic, functional variables. For me, accepting monogamy in my life without any practial, logical reason for it is difficult. It's like trying to prove homosexuality is wrong while being an atheist. [/weirdanalogy]

Maybe you are not ready to commit or, if she is not 'getting your rocks off' you may not be with the right girl?

I'm ready to commit, the second may be possible, but I'm not ready to go that far.

Or maybe your mind is just addled by pr0n? I mean don't get me wrong i'd like to end up in a jacuzzie with three large breasted, tiny wasted women who are all hungry for my cock and balls but if i meet the right person for a relationship i am unlikley to put it on hold on the off chance this scenario might one day crop up (i could probably sacrifice the jacuzzi at a push).

Well clearly my brain is addled by pr0n. I think we're ALL addled by pr0n. Even if you're a woman that's a virgin, if you use the Internet, I bet you at least get a pr0n contact high. And let me be clear, I'm not saying I want to f*** around, or I want five hot chicks in my grill or anything. I'm saying, why can't me and my life partner, a girl who I love with all my heart, go on a sexual adventure in our lives, where the only rules are the ones we make ourselves, where we'll try everything, and where we don't limit ourselves to 1 on 1 sex simply on the basis of tradition?

sorry if any of that is a bit blunt, all IMO natrully.

Pssh. As far as Besty bluntness goes, I got off easy, pardon the pun. And it's what I wanted anyway.

[Cathy_Quinn]

Interesting thread. In theory I agree that if both parties are willing, an open relationship could be a rewarding experience and a way to enjoy the different flavours of sex without threatening the emotional and spiritual bond of a committed relationship. In practice I can't see myself ever making one work as if I were wanting for anything outside of what my partner can give me I'd say I'm with the wrong partner. Fortunately for me I don't want for a thing :-)

[Impactor returns 2.0]

That and i think, on an animal level, humans are selfish creatures, and at some point, we dont like to share...

I had the opportunity of a 3-some not to long ago, things were heading that way,and my GF told this other lady "Mark and I dont do 3-somes, even if were are pretty liberal (insert BDSM stuff here) "

I suddenly thought "my GF isnt comftable with this, and why would I ever want to upset her?"

And that was that - im sure it could have been 'fun' and stuff, and im pretty sure it wouldnt have been a one off but it opens up so many questions, that I feel are to complex to answer, that in the end, I thought, is it worth it, just for sexual gratification?




Oh, I didnt think it was worth it by the way

[sprunkner]

Like it or not, in this culture all our human ideas about bonding and love and commitment are tied up in that funny feeling in the genitalia. To try and separate love and bonding and commitment from sex... good luck with that. Sex reinforces those things whether you'd like it or not. As I've learned with Mormonism, the culture that raises you gets its hooks in you pretty early and it's ******* hard to get them out. Sometimes it's not worth the bother. So you're stuck in a culture where you've been indoctrinated since childhood with the idea that sex means love, or like, or some romantic ideal.

Of course, I've only had sex with one woman in my entire life. Now it helps that she is a tall blonde with big breasts, but I can't say I haven't had the urge to seek out others. And my mind is occasionally tainted by pr0n.

Some of the pluses of lifelong monogamy: all our weird and awkward sexual experiences happened after we made the commitment, so we could just laugh it off and try again. All of our really good sexual experiences happened with each other, so there's the effect of that as well. Sex tends to reinforce our relationship rather than complicate it since we have this commitment. So when we have sex, whether it be quickies, long sessions, naughty bits in Irish hostels (or Emvee's couch) we tend to share a bonding experience by default. You may be setting out to get down and nasty, but surprise surprise--you've got a better relationship once all the ass-slapping and "naught bitch, naughty bitch" has died down.

Some of the downsides: I am sometimes haunted by the thought of sex with other women. But if I can only make one dish, I must say I make it very well.

I think monogamy works really well when you do it this way. Sex is something that is only between my wife and I. We would never consider involving anyone else because we never have. The more you put into someone else (ka-ching ka-ching) the more you get out of being with them.

With other people, I imagine complication. I mean, pr0n causes complication in my relationship and that's just images on a screen.

But like I said, this works so well because it's reinforced by the culture all around us. Look at how well my post acts out these cultural norms, even. Good luck breaking these ruling cultural dogmas, or conforming to them. Either way's a bitch, but I think, despite lack of experience, that monogamy's the more rewarding of the two.

[angloconvoy]

Just incidentally, the above mentioned wicked lass came out with me and my friends tonight (ir last night I guess, its abut 8 am now). And after she went home, I wasn't tempted by any other dishes on offer (well, not seriously at least). SO the end result is that on Sunday I'm going for dinner with a gorgeous and fun Korean girl. I'd much rather that than another drunken threesome.

[Best First]

i think the thing that i am mainly non entirely convinced about is that monogomy is an unnatural social construct - there are plenty of other examples of species that mate for life for example.

I don't think humans are quite that simple (stupid brain) but i think to dismiss monogomy as nothing more than a construct is a bit... glib i guess.

[Metal Vendetta]

Well here's a subject where I can offer my experience, and what little, if any, wisdom I've gained. Most of you know who I'm talking about, but for the sake of internet anonymity, let's pretend like you don't.

So a few years back I got together with this girl. At first it was all casual like, we met at a party and started seeing each other. As she ran a drinking establishment near where I worked, it wasn't long before we started seeing each other more regularly, and probably only a few months before she told me that we were, in fact, an exclusive couple.

Not long afterwards, she asked me about what fantasies I had. I said I'd always wanted to try a threesome, and she said: "Oh well, we can do that." I was dubious, but she was insistent that it was not only possible, but something that she wanted to try as well. This was the one experience I'd really like to try, but I also valued my relationship with her, so I didn't push it. The subject came up every so often, though, one of us would raise it. She (and I could never have done this) even brought it up during sex, telling me to imagine there was another girl there. However, in terms of practicality, finding another girl proved to be a challenge.

I got a book from off of the internet, aimed at helping couples like us; I read it and then passed it on to her. A couple of years passed, but the opportunity never arose. We got closer, and eventually I realised that it just wasn't going to happen - worse still, if I tried to pressure her into it I knew that it would probably damage our relationship. So I did the gentlemanly thing (I thought) and told her that I didn't want to pursue it - that we should just be like a normal couple and concentrate on that.

She went ballistic, tears and all, calling my friend behind my back and getting all emotional about it. I couldn't understand what the problem was - after all, it had been two years and we were still no closer to having a threesome than when we had started - but we had a really good relationship. She said that the worst thing I could say was that all I wanted was a "normal" relationship, and being "just a couple" was insulting. I asked for the book back. She told me she had never read it anyway.

Then she insisted we *were* going to go ahead with it. We even went clubbing a few times to try and find prospective girls to join us. It was't successful, but at least it wasn't awkward. A few weeks later I was at a party without her, I met a girl who seemed up for it, and casually mentioned that perhaps she might like to meet my girlfriend. Oh, how I have had cause to regret that comment since. I'd misjudged the girl and she screeched across the party to her friend "Hey Victoria! This guy wants a threesome!" or words to that effect. All eyes swivelled to me, and I tried to play it down as a joke, unsuccessfully. Fortunately at that moment the missus called - she was out at a lesbian club in town and would I like to join her? I made my excuses and left, withdrew a largish sum of money and took a taxi straight there. Predictably, my presence in a lesbian club raised a few eyebrows, and most of the girls were openly hostile, despite the fact that I knew some of the staff there. So we left, went home, everything still normal.

A couple of weeks later, we go into the local and the girl Victoria is sat with some of our mates. I introduce her to the missus and Victoria comes out with (first thing she says) "Oh, so you're the one who wants a threesome then?" My girl gets up and walks straight out of the pub, crying. I chase her as far as the tube station platform, where she turns around and screams "I CAN'T DO THIS, ROB! IT'S KILLING ME!" and I'm all like, what is? The threesome thing? Fine, forget it, that's not why I'm in this relationship. Only a couple of months ago I was the one who wanted to call it all off, and she was the one who insisted.

But then I started to try and examine why it was that she told me she wanted to go ahead with it for two and a half years. Why, if it was "killing her", did she actively encourage me to believe it was going to happen? Why did she lie to me so much and so often about something like that? If she had just said no to begin with, then I would have been perfectly happy in a monogamous relationship (which is effectively what we had anyway) without her teasing and leading me on.

Anyway from that day on, things just went from bad to worse. She referred to herself as "the girl who dashed all your dreams and hopes", then blame me for putting pressure on her (something I'd actively tried not to do) and make me feel dirty and wrong for even suggesting it in the first place. The relationship struggled on, but things started falling apart. My friend sent me a picture of two naked girls in his bed, she took my phone and texted him back with something like "You naughty boy, love XXX". I was livid that she should go out of her way to congratulate my friend for doing exactly what she was now denying me and blaming me for even wanting. A bunch of my friends were organising a boys' trip to Riga, she blew up and said that all I wanted to go there for was strippers and lapdances. By now I couldn't even be bothered to argue the point so I didn't go with the lads. A couple of weeks later, she informed me that she was going to Riga for a weekend with the girls. I tried to confront her about these double standards that I was now seeing on a daily basis - she casually dropped into conversation with my sister that her and her housemate had been taking saucy photos of each other. I tried to imagine her reaction if I mentioned I'd done the same thing with my housemate.

It was horrible. I felt as if I was unable to admit to wanting, or express any approval for anything outside of a normal vanilla relationship, while she could pretty much do what she wanted. I was checking every thought that went through my head to make sure I didn't accidentally say anything that might upset her, she managed to say something to upset me on an almost daily basis. Talking to her about it didn't help, either. She kept making me feel like a pervert for wanting a threesome in the first place, but didn't realise that what she said and did only served to make me feel worse - while I was doing my best to be a stable vanilla boyfriend, she was doing pretty much whatever she liked with impunity, regardless of the effect it would have on our relationship. She started drinking more and more. She got some new friends who, while not responsible for our break-up, were certainly a catalyst - she'd say things like "My friends don't know why I go out with you" or "My friend said that I must have been mad to agree to a threesome as it would have totally destroyed our relationship".

And in the end it did I suppose.

Moral of the story? I dunno. Don't be honest with your girlfriend about what you want? Don't believe a word she says, as she's probably just lying to try and keep you? Whatever, the whole experience has left me incredibly bitter and without a shred of faith in women. All I wanted was to try an adventurous experience (just once) with someone I loved and trusted, and I got two years of lies and one year of absolute hell. This from the girl I wanted to marry and be the mother of my children.

My advice? Screw monogamy. Go out and get what you want, when you want it and don't rely on anyone else to help you. Try and play by the rules and trust someone with your innermost desires, and you're going to get butt-****ed, ridiculed, villainised and end up alone anyway.

FFS, after all that I just wonder how much damage it could have done to our relationship if she'd just swallowed her pride and gone through with it. After all, it could hardly have been worse.

[sprunkner]

My advice? Screw monogamy. Go out and get what you want, when you want it and don't rely on anyone else to help you. Try and play by the rules and trust someone with your innermost desires, and you're going to get butt-****ed, ridiculed, villainised and end up alone anyway.

My wife still doesn't think it's funny that, when her lesbian friend brought up swinging, I said, "I'm fine with it as long as I can watch." I couldn't exactly play it off as a joke, either. She knows me too well.

Sorry to hear that side of the sordid story, Rob. At least you didn't end up having children with her... can you imagine dealing with that side of the personality with pregnancy and the stress of a child?

[Predabot]

So... after all that's said and done... has Shanti come to any conclusions about how he wants to handle this issue in his current and possibly future relationships...?

[sprunkner]

i think the thing that i am mainly non entirely convinced about is that monogomy is an unnatural social construct - there are plenty of other examples of species that mate for life for example.

I don't think humans are quite that simple (stupid brain) but i think to dismiss monogomy as nothing more than a construct is a bit... glib i guess.

I didn't quite mean it that way. I meant that, whether you argue monogamy is natural or not to humans (which seems a difficult argument to prove empirically) it is our culture, and it is in Shanti so deep (ka-ching ka-ching) that it will be hard for he or his girlfriend to think in a different paradigm.

[Dreadwind's Ghost]

yeah, a consistant patner can often mean much better antics.

Especially if. like me, you have a partner who is a complete nympho.

And she's a wheelchair user.

Let me explain. My fiancee has a mild form of Cerebral Palsy (her umbilical cord cut off her oxygen at birth). This means that she's pretty much wheelchair bound, but not mentally disabled at all. When we first met and got together, we were worried that sex might be difficult at best, and at worst, impossible. How wrong we were. It's been, quite frankly, mind-blowing. I'm not going into details, don't worry.

I guess my point is that sometimes, someone can come along who can completely change everything you thought you knew. And that having just the one partner can be as amazing (and still surprising) as having many.

[Metal Vendetta]

Sorry to hear that side of the sordid story, Rob. At least you didn't end up having children with her... can you imagine dealing with that side of the personality with pregnancy and the stress of a child?

Yes and no...I still think I could make it work if I could just put all this threesome bollocks behind us - it was never a dealbreaker for me, I would have been happy just being us, but the fact that she lied about it for so long really ****ed me up. Though I don't know why I was surprised by it. I've been reviewing every serious relationship I've had, and every one of them lied to me at the start, it seems:

Uni squeeze - "Oh yeah I'm totally bisexual and up for anything"
Truth - not bisexual at all, just after a regular vanilla relationship. After we broke up, she was married within a year.

Post-uni squeeze - "I love taking pills and going clubbing"
Truth - totally anti-drugs, and rarely even came out to the pub. What she really wanted was someone who would buy her a dog and/or go travelling with her. Now stuck in Mexico for the lifetime of the dog.*

Next squeeze - covered above in some detail.

Current squeeze - "Sure, we can just be ****buddies, no pressure at all"
Truth - slept with her twice, "Rob, you're wonderful, I want to be with you forever!"

I have no idea why women lie like this - I mean, what's the ****ing point? Surely they know that at some point I will realise they're full of ****. And contrary to what people have posted above, it's not because my mind has been tainted by pr0n, my mind has been tainted by the ****ING LIES WOMEN HAVE TOLD ME TO MY ****ING FACE. Seriously, from now on, I'm only trusting women whose names end in .jpg, .mpeg or .avi - all the others seem to think it's fine to come out with whatever bull**** they think I want to hear, and I'm getting sick of it. There are millions of girls out there who want a stable, loving long-term relationship, hell I could throw a stick in London and hit twenty of them, particularly when they get to their late twenties and their ovaries start ticking like a ****ing terrorist's backpack....I just want to meet someone who'll be honest with me from the start, instead of fabricating this false personality and then having to backtrack later when I call them on it and realise that what they've told me is a big old bag of bollocks.

/bitter rant

*[edit] forgot to mention, the guy who eventually went travelling with her and bought her the dog? Only the same guy she insisted was "just a friend" throughout our relationship even though he bought her **** for Valentine's day, and once I came home unexpectedly to find him in the flat that I was ****ing paying for. Women are lying ****ing bitches, the lot of them.

[Obfleur]

Yeah, [composite word including 'f*ck'] those .wmv bitches.

[Metal Vendetta]

Yeah, **** those .wmv bitches.

Sorry, I got kinda heavy there, but you get my point.

[sprunkner]

And that having just the one partner can be as amazing (and still surprising) as having many.

Yeah, I don't know if that's quite coming through in my posts, but I believe that pretty firmly. I honestly think it's commitment that makes the difference. When you're firmly committed to each other then the sex reflects that level of emotional intimacy.