Sheathed or unsheathed

[sprunkner]

Circumcision. I was thinking of the things we've discussed here based on our different cultural/religious beliefs, and I realized that in my memory, the question of to snip or not snip had been undebated.

[rusty_herring]

As a robot, I don't think I can answer that question.

[Best First]

as with a lot of religious stuff i think its the fact they get you when your young that seems pretty circumspect (oof!) to me.

[Obfleur]

I think it's ****** up that babies in the US (and other places of course) are circumcised.
Let the kid grow up and make his own decision.

And it's total ******** that circumcised dicks are "cleaner". I mean, have you ever heard of shower and soap? It's not that hard to use you know.

Anyways, I was circumcised last November (I was 22 at the time) because of a medical problem.
The operation started with two shots. I don't know the correct words in english, but one shot was at the base of the penis, and the other one was "between" the balls and the penis.
It. Was. Horrible.
Not really painful - just ******* horrible and uncomfortable.
And then my penis area went numb, and the two nurses started cutting and ****. I didn't feel a thing, which was awesome.
After the operation me and my mate went for a burger. And then the shots started to wear off.
It wasn't painful like "HOLY ****!!!" It was more like my penis having a really bad headache or something.
I got home, and later that evening it was time for bed.
Now, the doctors had given me three spare bandages (my penis was neatly wrapped up, by the way) so that I could change bandages if it got soaked in blood or piss.
Well, I took off my boxers and saw that the bandage was totally covered in blood. I freaked!
I sat there for minutes, just watching the blood, thinking "If this was on my arm or something, I would've changed the bandages five minutes ago. But this is my penis. Do I really wanna see what's underneath this blood soaked mess?"
Since I had no other choice I started to unwrap myself.
Some of the blood had coagulated, which meant that I had to rip off some scabs (the bandage was stuck in the coagulated blood). The pain! Oh my god...
After what felt like an hour, I had finished unwrapping the bandages.
Now I had a clear view of the mess that was my penis.
It was badly swollen, there were stitches, there was dried up blood and there was fresh blood.
The mental stress was way worse than the physical pain.

I took out a fresh bandage and started to wrap the **** up.
Now, when you've finished wrapping up you have to place an elastic net over the whole thing. This keeps things tight.
One hand held the penis, the other one tried to force this little, tight, elastic net over the whole thing. God damn it hurt.
But this pain was a piece of cake compared to what was up next.

I brushed my teeth and went to bed. I couldn't sleep on my stomach, and since I was ******* terrified that I would roll over in my sleep, and thus crush my freshly circumcised penis, I slept half sitting up, like the Elephant Man.

Well, "slept" isn't the right word. Relaxed, would be more appropriate.
When I was juuuuuuuuuust about to fall asleep I experience the worst pain I've ever felt. It was like my dick was about to explode.
I looked down to see what the [composite word including 'f*ck'] was up, and saw that I was hard.
Great.
This continued for about a week or two. Every time I was about to fall asleep, I woke up because of that horrible pain.

This is my story about circumcision (I've spared you some details though, like changing a piss and blood soaked bandage. Ah, what a lovely smell it had!).
I will never, ever recommend anyone to get a circumcision.

Feel free to ask questions if you want.

EDIT: Just wanna add that I am fine and dandy now

[Kaylee]

Jesus, man

[Dead Head]

Better poll please. No puns intended.

[Hot Shot]

I think it's better to get circumcised as a baby rather than later in life. You don't remember the pain. Since there's always the possibility that a circumcision will be necessary later in life, I figure being snipped at birth spares one's self from pain.

BTW, sorry to hear that Ob.

[Kaylee]

I think it's better to get circumcised as a baby rather than later in life. You don't remember the pain. Since there's always the possibility that a circumcision will be necessary later in life, I figure being snipped at birth spares one's self from pain.

BTW, sorry to hear that Ob.

Best to take out that appendix too.

And the heart just in case you have a stroke.

Oh.

[KingMob]

I'm not hugely keen with the whole inflicting pain on babies thing being cool because they won't remember it, either.

I mean, man up Judiasm! If you're gonna force your adherents to mutilate themselves, at least make them suffer for their faith. Look at the religions that make you wait until you're older! Now they've got balls.
Less of other things, but still.

Not keen on it becoming just done as a matter of course due to cultural acceptance, either. Seems a bit silly to just get it done because everyone else does and 'you never know'.

Are we only doing male circumcision?

[Kaylee]

I hope so, I can't think of a single logical reason for the ghastly crime that is female circumcision.

Although sadly not a crime in all parts of the world.

[Predabot]

I thought the poll was not up to snuff either. Since I would have liked to a scientific option stating that there is a bloody reason why man have evolved fore-skin.

Alas, I chose religious Conspiracy, even tho I don't actually agree, since many dumb basts do it out of entirely different reasons, most not actually necessary, but rather more like "fashionable"...

Robin, I'm sad to hear about your misfortune. I can only hope that the surgery will have helped with your illness.

Best of luck dude, ffs.

[Eline]

I am glad that I am not a boy. And equally glad that I don't live in a culture where girls need to be mutilated.

[rusty_herring]

Wow, that sounds terrible Ob, I hope you're feeling well now.

[spiderfrommars]

Sorry Ob, your post made me laugh a lot! It's the way you tell 'em. Sounds bloody awful, glad you're dandy now.

[Aaron Hong]

I thought the poll was not up to snuff either. Since I would have liked to a scientific option stating that there is a bloody reason why man have evolved fore-skin.

As protection for the really sensitive ones, perhaps?

...Quit looking at me like that.

[Guest]

I thought the poll was not up to snuff either. Since I would have liked to a scientific option stating that there is a bloody reason why man have evolved fore-skin.

As protection for the really sensitive ones, perhaps?

...Quit looking at me like that.

Evolution moved it from internal to external (probably for ease of use), and so it probably also kept in step and projected its surrounding skin.

If you're really that interested, Preds, go to the zoo and look at the apes and monkeys for reference.


Ob, I can sympathise, unfortunately, as I was done over 30 years ago, I have no memories of the event. Suppose that's what I get for being born with both hips dislocated and there not having been a baby-sized catheter to go with my plaster-of-paris nappy back in those days.

IMO it should only be done for medical reasons and only when absolutely necessary, i.e. when there is no other course of action to resolve the problem.

[wideload]

I'm really pro circumcision. The health debate is what gets me. Yes you can keep it clean, but are kids really going to remember to do that?


Besides the obvious benefits there are a lot of side benefits. It decreases the chances of spreading HIV, increases sexual stamina, decreases the chance of spreading herpes, and getting penile cancer. There are a lot of studies right now that suggest that if it was practiced everywhere in Africa it could save millions of lives. A couple are linked here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision


The biological reason for foreskin is that it protects the penis which is sensitive. I wear underwear and pants so I don't have to worry about that. I think its different than removing an appendix too, because the operation required to remove it is quite minor and does not require anesthetic. Also, it was very unfortunate to hear about the story of the adult circumcision. But you have to remember that the baby's penis has not fully developed and is not as sensitive. Its also much smaller so it heals much quicker.

As for the consent argument.... there are a lot of things parents do for kids that they don't get a say in. That is why they are parents. Yes a circumcision is permanent, but there are a lot of other things parents do to kids that mess them up a lot more than missing their foreskin.

As for female circumcision, I could not be more against something. Its basically used to control female sexual urges. I am all for female sexual urges. (also it sucks for the girls too).

[sprunkner]

A lot of that evidence for health reasons seems rather dodgy. And I think that encouraging widespread circumcision in Africa would cause more trouble than it's worth, for 1)the Islamic nutters who could use it as ammo and 2)the consequences for female circumcision.

[Kaylee]

There are health benefits to all sorts of amendments to the human body, I find it strange this particular amendment tends to come from a usually conservative body of opinion which is opposed to anything 'unnatural'.

[Aaron Hong]

And I think that encouraging widespread circumcision in Africa would cause more trouble than it's worth, for 1)the Islamic nutters who could use it as ammo

Because we all know a weapon that fires 100 foreskins a minute would rule on the black market.

<_<

[wideload]

There are health benefits to all sorts of amendments to the human body, I find it strange this particular amendment tends to come from a usually conservative body of opinion which is opposed to anything 'unnatural'.

I think you would find that the vast majority of people who've had it done, have no problem with it whatsoever. Also name one other body part that can be removed without internal surgery that gives health benefits after its removal.

I do agree with you it is kind of odd that many groups who are in favor for religious reasons also tend to be the same groups who are against modifying the way you were made. Most likely this is an example of a tradition that predated the formation of the modern religions who now practice it.

[KingMob]

I'm really pro circumcision. The health debate is what gets me. Yes you can keep it clean, but are kids really going to remember to do that?

Um, yes? Exactly how stupid are teenage boys supposed to be? (OK, OK) Hygiene is taught in school, kids have parents and hopefully teenage boys want clean dicks. Cleaning your dick isn't a hassle, it takes no time at all. Hell, toss one off while in the shower if you find cleaning yourself to be like, a drag, man. Also, while I don't have stats, I feel pretty safe in thinking the non-cut people of the world don't seem to have had that much of a problem with cleaning themselves for the last forever.

I said teenagers because of the age thing. Before puberty (or approaching then, age varies obv) it's not really that possible to clean under the foreskin; biologically it's really difficult to retract the foreskin before puberty as it's connected to the head of the penis and only naturally separates later. Forcing a foreskin retraction, whilst not only being bloody painful, can lead to the very health problems cutting is purported to avoid. There's not an epidemic of 8 year old kids with dicks rotting off, so there doesn't seem to be a particularly large problem with that in ever, either.

I think you would find that the vast majority of people who've had it done, have no problem with it whatsoever. Also name one other body part that can be removed without internal surgery that gives health benefits after its removal.

Oh I dunno, your hair? No more dandruff!
The benefits listed are all so miniscule-sounding. I can avoid contracting or communicating AIDS or herpes by using common sense and freely available condoms. If you feel positive about ******* about with any old person and not using a johnny because you've got a cut dick, you're an idiot. I imagine most people are quite comfortable with their sexual stamina after the first few times and like most adults I can already [composite word including 'f*ck'] for an hour without jeffing if I want, why on earth would being able to go for another 10 minutes be worth getting my wazz sliced? Cancer? **** that, I smoke tabs. And sorry, still not keen on taking a knife to a baby for no immediately required medical treatment.

I'm not against cutting, I just don't really see the point, other than for those who wish to abide by the strictures of their faith. It's the argument about it I don't like. The atmosphere behind the 'argument' to me seems to always come down to a big cutting culture wanting to spread what it thinks of as normal behaviour to the supposedly smelly barbarians and the so-called barbarians just looking at the big cutters like they're lunatics. Only you know, with endless marginal statistics and a weird psychological undercurrent that seems to come from the underlying urge amongst some men to present their cocks as better than those of some other blokes, and that's just tacky. Possibly literally.

[Kaylee]

There are health benefits to all sorts of amendments to the human body, I find it strange this particular amendment tends to come from a usually conservative body of opinion which is opposed to anything 'unnatural'.

I think you would find that the vast majority of people who've had it done, have no problem with it whatsoever. Also name one other body part that can be removed without internal surgery that gives health benefits after its removal.

Kingmob said it- hair and nail removal makes us more hygenic.

Most peeps have no problems with it imo the same way peeps in the US have no problems driving automatics and we in the UK have no problems driving manuals- you get used to it from such a young age you don't consider anything else.

[wideload]

I'm really pro circumcision. The health debate is what gets me. Yes you can keep it clean, but are kids really going to remember to do that?

Um, yes? Exactly how stupid are teenage boys supposed to be? (OK, OK) Hygiene is taught in school, kids have parents and hopefully teenage boys want clean dicks. Cleaning your dick isn't a hassle, it takes no time at all. Hell, toss one off while in the shower if you find cleaning yourself to be like, a drag, man. Also, while I don't have stats, I feel pretty safe in thinking the non-cut people of the world don't seem to have had that much of a problem with cleaning themselves for the last forever.

I said teenagers because of the age thing. Before puberty (or approaching then, age varies obv) it's not really that possible to clean under the foreskin; biologically it's really difficult to retract the foreskin before puberty as it's connected to the head of the penis and only naturally separates later. Forcing a foreskin retraction, whilst not only being bloody painful, can lead to the very health problems cutting is purported to avoid. There's not an epidemic of 8 year old kids with dicks rotting off, so there doesn't seem to be a particularly large problem with that in ever, either.

I think you would find that the vast majority of people who've had it done, have no problem with it whatsoever. Also name one other body part that can be removed without internal surgery that gives health benefits after its removal.

Oh I dunno, your hair? No more dandruff!
The benefits listed are all so miniscule-sounding. I can avoid contracting or communicating AIDS or herpes by using common sense and freely available condoms. If you feel positive about ******* about with any old person and not using a johnny because you've got a cut dick, you're an idiot. I imagine most people are quite comfortable with their sexual stamina after the first few times and like most adults I can already **** for an hour without jeffing if I want, why on earth would being able to go for another 10 minutes be worth getting my wazz sliced? Cancer? **** that, I smoke tabs. And sorry, still not keen on taking a knife to a baby for no immediately required medical treatment.

I'm not against cutting, I just don't really see the point, other than for those who wish to abide by the strictures of their faith. It's the argument about it I don't like. The atmosphere behind the 'argument' to me seems to always come down to a big cutting culture wanting to spread what it thinks of as normal behaviour to the supposedly smelly barbarians and the so-called barbarians just looking at the big cutters like they're lunatics. Only you know, with endless marginal statistics and a weird psychological undercurrent that seems to come from the underlying urge amongst some men to present their cocks as better than those of some other blokes, and that's just tacky. Possibly literally.

I think people could make the opposite argument too. The anti-circumcision group is making the argument that circumcision is a barbaric child abuse ritual, which it simply isn't. I dont recall anyone ever attempting to force others to get cut. I just personally don't like others calling my parents child abusers for their traditions. If you don't want to get it done you have every right not to. Nobody is trying to "spread" any behaviour or force anything on you. People are simply stating their opinion.

If you read the article above you would also see that a circumcised person is 10X less likely to get a urinary tract infection more than just a marginal benefit IMO. Especially considering a male urinary tract infection is beyond painful due to the length of the urethra. Like I said before if you feel the benefits are too miniscule then don't get it done. Once again despite your rant, I dont recall anyone ever forcing you to do it.

And yes if there was a simple way that meant I never had to get my nails cut I would probably do that too.

[KingMob]

I'm really pro circumcision. The health debate is what gets me. Yes you can keep it clean, but are kids really going to remember to do that?

Um, yes? Exactly how stupid are teenage boys supposed to be? (OK, OK) Hygiene is taught in school, kids have parents and hopefully teenage boys want clean dicks. Cleaning your dick isn't a hassle, it takes no time at all. Hell, toss one off while in the shower if you find cleaning yourself to be like, a drag, man. Also, while I don't have stats, I feel pretty safe in thinking the non-cut people of the world don't seem to have had that much of a problem with cleaning themselves for the last forever.

I said teenagers because of the age thing. Before puberty (or approaching then, age varies obv) it's not really that possible to clean under the foreskin; biologically it's really difficult to retract the foreskin before puberty as it's connected to the head of the penis and only naturally separates later. Forcing a foreskin retraction, whilst not only being bloody painful, can lead to the very health problems cutting is purported to avoid. There's not an epidemic of 8 year old kids with dicks rotting off, so there doesn't seem to be a particularly large problem with that in ever, either.

I think you would find that the vast majority of people who've had it done, have no problem with it whatsoever. Also name one other body part that can be removed without internal surgery that gives health benefits after its removal.

Oh I dunno, your hair? No more dandruff!
The benefits listed are all so miniscule-sounding. I can avoid contracting or communicating AIDS or herpes by using common sense and freely available condoms. If you feel positive about ******* about with any old person and not using a johnny because you've got a cut dick, you're an idiot. I imagine most people are quite comfortable with their sexual stamina after the first few times and like most adults I can already **** for an hour without jeffing if I want, why on earth would being able to go for another 10 minutes be worth getting my wazz sliced? Cancer? **** that, I smoke tabs. And sorry, still not keen on taking a knife to a baby for no immediately required medical treatment.

I'm not against cutting, I just don't really see the point, other than for those who wish to abide by the strictures of their faith. It's the argument about it I don't like. The atmosphere behind the 'argument' to me seems to always come down to a big cutting culture wanting to spread what it thinks of as normal behaviour to the supposedly smelly barbarians and the so-called barbarians just looking at the big cutters like they're lunatics. Only you know, with endless marginal statistics and a weird psychological undercurrent that seems to come from the underlying urge amongst some men to present their cocks as better than those of some other blokes, and that's just tacky. Possibly literally.

I think people could make the opposite argument too. The anti-circumcision group is making the argument that circumcision is a barbaric child abuse ritual, which it simply isn't. I dont recall anyone ever attempting to force others to get cut. I just personally don't like others calling my parents child abusers for their traditions. If you don't want to get it done you have every right not to. Nobody is trying to "spread" any behaviour or force anything on you. People are simply stating their opinion.

If you read the article above you would also see that a circumcised person is 10X less likely to get a urinary tract infection more than just a marginal benefit IMO. Especially considering a male urinary tract infection is beyond painful due to the length of the urethra. Like I said before if you feel the benefits are too miniscule then don't get it done. Once again despite your rant, I dont recall anyone ever forcing you to do it.

And yes if there was a simple way that meant I never had to get my nails cut I would probably do that too.

Dude, that wasn't a rant, I did read the article thanks, and the section on UTIs is a prime example of why I refer to these stats as marginal. x10 chance to reduce percentile rates from 0.4-1%? Possible between 100-200 cuts to prevent 1 UTI? And none of the studies agree.

I'm aware the argument works both ways, I figured that was inferred. I think the argument is stupid, as it's two different cultures clashing over what they both consider normal; the cutters talking to the non-cutters as if they are unhealthy fools and the non-cutters talking to the cutters as if they lunatics for chopping off bits of kids. As said, I'm not against it. There's no option in the poll for me.

As to forcing, again that's a cultural standpoint. I know a Brit who had a kid in the US and came under an amount of pressure from the docs to get it done to their son that they weren't comfortable with. It's not 'forcing' but they felt pressured against their inclination. But as you said, they were able to say no thanks.

I never noticed this was a series of statements of opinion, how silly of me. I guess I forget that when I rant on the intertubes.

[Shanti418]

I was circumcised as a child. Thinking back on it, I suppose it's for reasons unknown to me, as my parents aren't religious. Perhaps they were just suckers for the American status quo, although that doesn't sound like them either.

Regardless, the only things I remember are when I came to after the operation and someone I didn't know (a nurse) was touching my junk, and when I left the hospital, at which point my parents took me and some friends to see Sesame Street on Ice, and I had to be helped around walking because my junk still hurt.

The operation is unnecessary, but I don't think it harms you either. Like Ob said, you either get foreskin and have to do minor upkeep, or you don't, and it takes care of itself.

[wideload]

Um, yes? Exactly how stupid are teenage boys supposed to be? (OK, OK) Hygiene is taught in school, kids have parents and hopefully teenage boys want clean dicks. Cleaning your dick isn't a hassle, it takes no time at all. Hell, toss one off while in the shower if you find cleaning yourself to be like, a drag, man. Also, while I don't have stats, I feel pretty safe in thinking the non-cut people of the world don't seem to have had that much of a problem with cleaning themselves for the last forever.

I said teenagers because of the age thing. Before puberty (or approaching then, age varies obv) it's not really that possible to clean under the foreskin; biologically it's really difficult to retract the foreskin before puberty as it's connected to the head of the penis and only naturally separates later. Forcing a foreskin retraction, whilst not only being bloody painful, can lead to the very health problems cutting is purported to avoid. There's not an epidemic of 8 year old kids with dicks rotting off, so there doesn't seem to be a particularly large problem with that in ever, either.
Oh I dunno, your hair? No more dandruff!
The benefits listed are all so miniscule-sounding. I can avoid contracting or communicating AIDS or herpes by using common sense and freely available condoms. If you feel positive about ******* about with any old person and not using a johnny because you've got a cut dick, you're an idiot. I imagine most people are quite comfortable with their sexual stamina after the first few times and like most adults I can already **** for an hour without jeffing if I want, why on earth would being able to go for another 10 minutes be worth getting my wazz sliced? Cancer? **** that, I smoke tabs. And sorry, still not keen on taking a knife to a baby for no immediately required medical treatment.

I'm not against cutting, I just don't really see the point, other than for those who wish to abide by the strictures of their faith. It's the argument about it I don't like. The atmosphere behind the 'argument' to me seems to always come down to a big cutting culture wanting to spread what it thinks of as normal behaviour to the supposedly smelly barbarians and the so-called barbarians just looking at the big cutters like they're lunatics. Only you know, with endless marginal statistics and a weird psychological undercurrent that seems to come from the underlying urge amongst some men to present their cocks as better than those of some other blokes, and that's just tacky. Possibly literally.

I think people could make the opposite argument too. The anti-circumcision group is making the argument that circumcision is a barbaric child abuse ritual, which it simply isn't. I dont recall anyone ever attempting to force others to get cut. I just personally don't like others calling my parents child abusers for their traditions. If you don't want to get it done you have every right not to. Nobody is trying to "spread" any behaviour or force anything on you. People are simply stating their opinion.

If you read the article above you would also see that a circumcised person is 10X less likely to get a urinary tract infection more than just a marginal benefit IMO. Especially considering a male urinary tract infection is beyond painful due to the length of the urethra. Like I said before if you feel the benefits are too miniscule then don't get it done. Once again despite your rant, I dont recall anyone ever forcing you to do it.

And yes if there was a simple way that meant I never had to get my nails cut I would probably do that too.

Dude, that wasn't a rant, I did read the article thanks, and the section on UTIs is a prime example of why I refer to these stats as marginal. x10 chance to reduce percentile rates from 0.4-1%? Possible between 100-200 cuts to prevent 1 UTI? And none of the studies agree.

I'm aware the argument works both ways, I figured that was inferred. I think the argument is stupid, as it's two different cultures clashing over what they both consider normal; the cutters talking to the non-cutters as if they are unhealthy fools and the non-cutters talking to the cutters as if they lunatics for chopping off bits of kids. As said, I'm not against it. There's no option in the poll for me.

As to forcing, again that's a cultural standpoint. I know a Brit who had a kid in the US and came under an amount of pressure from the docs to get it done to their son that they weren't comfortable with. It's not 'forcing' but they felt pressured against their inclination. But as you said, they were able to say no thanks.

I never noticed this was a series of statements of opinion, how silly of me. I guess I forget that when I rant on the intertubes.

Sorry, tone is a difficult thing to pick on the internet. I got the sense you were more than a bit defensive and accusatory. If you don't want people to get the sense you are ranting it might be a good first step to avoid using massive amounts of profanity when you are making your point.

Also a 50-60% reduction in risk of HIV transmission is not a marginal health benefit. No it probably wont help you or I out too much, but there are definitely areas in the world where it would. Areas where things are not quite as simple as putting on a condom. Also, 100-200 circumcisions to prevent one UTI is not very good results, but when taken in context with all the other subtle health benefits it starts looking fairly good.

All I'm saying is the following. Circumcision is largely based on a tradition that I think everyone should have the freedom to practice, but it also has some positive side effects concerning health.

[KingMob]

If you don't want people to get the sense you are ranting it might be a good first step to avoid using massive amounts of profanity when you are making your point.

Oh, FFS...

All I'm saying is the following. Circumcision is largely based on a tradition that I think everyone should have the freedom to practice, but it also has some positive side effects concerning health.

Hay look we agree.

[Best First]

I find it hard to accept King Mobs post being hard to judge the tone of from someone who has put the words child abuse in the mouths of everyone who thinks circumcising kids may not be an entirely justifiable practice.

i think if you read the words the issue is choice, not abuse.

If anyone's tone needs correction i would suggest its yours.

And as an aside your overly defensive over reaction does little to persuade.

[IronHide]

Heard a lot of horror stories from guys who werent snipped. Doesnt sound like a fun time to me by any means.

Big thumbs up to being circumsized as a baby.