Whats everyones opinions on the war in iraq

[wideload]

I think it is likely that Saddam did have WMDs. He did have close to a month to get rid of them. They also found lots of accessories to WMDs.

Whether or not they were there seems kind of pointless to me, since that was obviously not the real reason for war. The Republicans were just not happy w/ Saddam's regime in general and were obviously looking for an excuse to remove it.

[Kaylee]

Distinction I think between WMD and conventional weapons Impy

[Dayton3]

Weapons, such as fuses, payloads, and chemical wareheads etc.. are rarely sold in thier delivery system, ie, a bomb or missle.

For example, a SAM missles is not the same in the US or the UK, we might use the same Explosive warhead but the missles system is the propriorty of the mother country.

Its commonly excepted that If I sell u Weapons inriched ploutonium, its for... you guessed it a weapon! - what delivery device you put your warhead into is up to you.

Scemantics aside, its still a weapon because it only has one design purpose, to be a weapon - and this is the same view shared all over the world.


One thing i do find interesting about this argument, to all concerned here is this.

If we did not go to war for the right reasons: ie, Saddam has WMD's - then why is Daytona clamining the US didnt sell Saddam the weapons, if the US did sell Saddam the weapons, the reason to go to war was legit.
And
Vice-Versa, for everyone here who is trying to prove the US did sell saddam WMD's, then you are kind of proving that Saddam did have WMD's and then the war was legit according to the UN treaty 12938383 (or whatever it was called)

bizzare eh?

Interesting reasoning.

I'll have to remember.

But my point remains.

Just because chemicals can be used as chemical weapons doesn't mean that is their primary purpose.

If they have a legitimate primary nonmilitary usage, then they are not weapons.

[Best First]

"But Officer, how can i have beaten him round the head with a cricket bat? Cricket bats are used for SPORT"

[Hot Shot]

Just because chemicals can be used as chemical weapons doesn't mean that is their primary purpose.

So, if I give a 16 year old drug addict a full bottle of cold medicine knowing the circumstances, and later find out he abused it and died, I did nothing wrong? I can just say, "He was supposed to use it for his cold."? Or put an open bottle of asprin in a baby's crib, and after it overdoses, say "He wasn't supposed to eat them all."?

Intent is what you make it. The US handed a loaded gun to someone who would abuse it. This is a matter of stupidity on the US rather than Iraq's misuse of supplies.

Oh, and welcome back Besty! I know I said that I wouldn't talk to Dayton in this topic anymore, but now I realize that I'm getting more amusement out of this than I thought!

[Dayton3]

I do not know who you are referring to.

But moving on, can anyone actually prove that chemicals purchased by Iraq from the United States were actually used as weapons?

IIRC the documents provided show the sale of chemicals AFTER Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons in combat and that he didn't use those weapons again in the war against Iran.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

No i want to be very very clear here on chemical weapons.

the 'Chemical' used is not found in your local drug store, nor is it somthing u make by 'accident' - chemical formulas for weapons are highly complex soloutions that have 1 singal primary purpose, to kill in the most efficant method possible.

The chemical payloads that were sold to saddam were for weapons, and weapons only, u cant use them to clean your toilet or remove grease with, they are designed for killing.

The method of delivery is somthing completely different, the US will have a weapon 'platform' that differs from the UK, and Iraqs.
When u sell weapons beyond small-arms, u rarely sell the whole 'system'
but they are still considered weapons under UN law, because they have only one single purpose.

A simple example would be the apache helicopter, the UK bought lots of these from the US, and even tho the US 'trusts' us to own these 'platforms' the radar, weapons systems and counter measure systems are the UK's, the US will not sell the missle systems to us.
why?

Because owning a warhead is one thing, delivery is another, and counter meassures are just as important. the US (or anyone else for that matter) does not want another nation to have access to a complex missle system that cannot be shot down or misguided. its common sense.

Back to Iraq, and Saddam, when he bought the chemical weapons, that were used on the Kurds, it would have been shipped in a two part formula, when both parts are combined they for the the chemical agent that kills. by themselves they would still be toxic and they would still only have a single purpose due to thier individual refinement.
they would, most importantly, under international trade law, be marked 'Weapons grade'

Unless u dont want anyone to know that is, so u dress it up in some document, spin some scemantics around it, and look the other way.

Point is, the Kurds were killed using perticular agent that was western made.

[Dayton3]

The first chemical weapons ever used was chlorine gas.

You can't tell me that requires some top secret formula

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Please do tell me what your point is here, because it bears no relevence to what I have been saying.

Saddam reportedly used A combination Mustard Gas, Sarin, Tabun and VX nerve agents on the Kurds. these weapons are western made.
because the faclities for such weapon construction were never found in Iraq.

And more importantly, the internet did not exist back in 1988, so your relvence to the past (the first chemical weapon) is also irrelevent.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

just read that if you need to know more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare

[Dayton3]

Please do tell me what your point is here, because it bears no relevence to what I have been saying.

Saddam reportedly used A combination Mustard Gas, Sarin, Tabun and VX nerve agents on the Kurds. these weapons are western made.
because the faclities for such weapon construction were never found in Iraq.

And more importantly, the internet did not exist back in 1988, so your relvence to the past (the first chemical weapon) is also irrelevent.

According to the Wikipedia, it isn't even certain that Iraq was responsible for the chemical weapons attack against the Kurds.

[Yaya]

Wait a minute....

Dayton3, you're from Texas, right? Home of GW?

Silly me, I was just thinking where you might be from given your stance on this issue.

Wouldn't ya know it. I knew there had to be a logical explanation to account for your rationalization of this mess called the Iraq War.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

According to the Wikipedia, it isn't even certain that Iraq was responsible for the chemical weapons attack against the Kurds.

Actually, according to Wiki, it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Hassan_al-Majid

Thats Chemical Ali - guess how he got that name...

More importantly, pretty much the entire planets press, from every country on earth reported the mass genocide of the kurds, who live in Iraq by the way, using weapons grade chemical weapons of western origin.
Which we now know came from, duh duh duh, the US.

And, it was one of the main factors for why the US knew that Iraq had WMD because they sold them to Iraq; and Chemical weapons are listed as WMD's by all nations in accordance with the UN.

Isnt education great?

[sprunkner]

But don't feel too bad - The craziest thing I've heard in the past week is that you can say whatever the **** you want to people, free of consequence, so long as it's a movie quote.

I desperately want to make love to a schoolboy.

Isn't Shanti from Texas?

Also, dude, you keep saying that the US never sold actual weapons, just the material to make them. So it's okay. And it's okay to invade Iraq even though we didn't FIND weapons, just the material to make them.

Head hurts...

[Hot Shot]

Isn't Shanti from Texas?

Yes. Also myself and <3Starscream. Had Yaya said that about six years ago I might've agreed with him due to the fact that at the time I was going to a school full of rich kids constantly saying the equivalent of "Lolzz! BOOSH iz teh Rulez! U iz teh STOOPID cuz Ure mom adn dad Votid AGIANZT him! Teh LOLZ!". Now after I've gone to two other(middle class) schools and learned their opinions, I find Yaya's comment a blind stereotype. Almost as bad as thinking we wear boots and cowboy hats(you should see the tourists).

I swear Yaya just borderline-flamed at least 3 board frequenters, and just set up Dayton to make an all-caps swear letter of doom...

[Best First]

i actually, mostly, dear god, agree with Hot Shot there. Not exactly the way to paint yourself as the intellectual superior JaJa.

As an aside, or potentially on topic - dayton your approach to debate is farcical, as soon as you are challenged you just make another random assertion or ignore the point - your attempts at making a point are a joke and if i was everyone else here i would just pop in to the topic be sacracstic at his expense and leave again (huh), there's no point trying to reason with people who adopt such a childlike approach to defending their views.

he might as well be saying "because God says so".

[Kaylee]

Hurrah for our leader! I'd follow him to hell and back I would!

On another note I've done seen the light, since this fool-proof logic means I can randomly kick the hell out of people since the primary use of my legs is for walking

[Obfleur]

[Yaya]

Isn't Shanti from Texas?

Yes. Also myself and <3Starscream. Had Yaya said that about six years ago I might've agreed with him due to the fact that at the time I was going to a school full of rich kids constantly saying the equivalent of "Lolzz! BOOSH iz teh Rulez! U iz teh STOOPID cuz Ure mom adn dad Votid AGIANZT him! Teh LOLZ!". Now after I've gone to two other(middle class) schools and learned their opinions, I find Yaya's comment a blind stereotype. Almost as bad as thinking we wear boots and cowboy hats(you should see the tourists).

I swear Yaya just borderline-flamed at least 3 board frequenters, and just set up Dayton to make an all-caps swear letter of doom...

Hey, I was a Texan myself, lived in Dallas, so that's 4 people borderline-flamed.

Of course you are correct, it's a blind stereotype, which are never accurate. So I apologive for that. But many Texans do sport this attitude of blind allegiance to all things Texan, without considering the issue at hand. Don't tell me you haven't witnessed this? It's like voting along party lines.

[Best First]

i think we are missing the more important issue here:

YOU MADE ME AGREE WITH HOTSHOT.

Making me agree with hotshot is now banned.

[Dayton3]

Wait a minute....

Dayton3, you're from Texas, right? Home of GW?

Silly me, I was just thinking where you might be from given your stance on this issue.

Wouldn't ya know it. I knew there had to be a logical explanation to account for your rationalization of this mess called the Iraq War.

When I first registered at this discussion board, I was living in Texas. I got away from this board after my computer started having some problems and to be honest, my transformers interest had waned.

I was born and raised in Arkansas and live there now.

I lived in Arkansas until I was 31 years old. My wife and I then moved to Texas for about four years for work related reasons.

I'm back in Arkansas now. I've just never changed my profile.

I was born and raised about 40 miles from where Bill Clinton was born and raised.

Currently, I am an assistant football coach and history teacher at Norphlet High School in Norphlet Arkansas.

Should you wish to go to the school website, you can see my name and teaching assignment along with my salary. All this information being public as required by Arkansas state law.

[KingMob]

Hay guyz what's all going on in this thread? It's went from iraqlulz to some sort of cyber-dating thing?

[Obfleur]

Hahaha!!

[Shanti418]

Wow, that was a fun thread.

I, like most Texans, consider myself a Texan first and an American second, for better or worse. We were our own nation once, dammit! You can't say that's not bad ass.



And for the record, George W. Bush was born in CONNECTICUT.

[Yaya]

Wow, that was a fun thread.

I, like most Texans, consider myself a Texan first and an American second, for better or worse. We were our own nation once, dammit! You can't say that's not bad ass.

I was watching a movie when I lived in Dallas, and you know those ads they show at the beginning of the movie? Well, an ad for Texas Instruments flicked on, and the crowd went nuts.

I was like "What......the.......****?"

You don't mess with Texas. Texas messes with you.

[Hot Shot]

i think we are missing the more important issue here:

YOU MADE ME AGREE WITH HOTSHOT.

Making me agree with hotshot is now banned.

You know you enjoyed it on some level.

[angloconvoy]

I lived in Arkansas until I was 31 years old. My wife and I then moved to Texas for about four years for work related reasons.

Wait wait wait. You're an adult? With that logic and reasoning I honestly thought younger...just...wow.

[Brendocon]

We were our own nation once, dammit! You can't say that's not bad ass.

... you realise the same goes for the Welsh, right?

You don't mess with Texas. Texas messes with you.

I fully support your war of terror!

... what? It's a film quote, I'm allowed to say it. Consequence free.

[Yaya]

I fully support your war of terror!

... what? It's a film quote, I'm allowed to say it. Consequence free.

That was actually in Staunton, Virginia. My birth state.


Anyway, I have a new way of judging intellect. If someone supports Bush, they might have their own personal reasons and biases. Fine, I can understand that.

But if someone believes Bush and what he says about the war?

That's....sad.

[Brendocon]

That was actually in Staunton, Virginia. My birth state.

Film quote... I'm in no way bound to meaning, intent or accuracy.