Obama gets SwiftBoated

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:26 am

I really like Barack Obama. So it's a shame that the right-wing nuts have found their big smear campaign for him:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/19/fox-obama-madrassa/

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:30 am

Yep. Because going to a Catholic school is just SOOOOO much better, right?

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:02 am

It will be funny to watch how logic doesn't apply. He is neither Catholic nor Muslim, yet he attended a Catholic and a Muslim school. Therefore... he MUST BE A TERRORIST!

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:00 am

sprunkner wrote:It will be funny to watch how logic doesn't apply. He is neither Catholic nor Muslim, yet he attended a Catholic and a Muslim school. Therefore... he MUST BE A TERRORIST!

Indeed. It will be funny to watch. From 6,000 miles away. If I were watching from the US, I think I would have to cry.

Evidence means NOTHING to the American Media. The Swift Boat things are a great example.

Swift Boat People: John Kerry never even came to Vietnam.

Reporter: Do you have any evidence to back that up?

Swift Boat People: We're VETERANS! We wrote a BOOK!

Reporter: You heard it here, folks. John Kerry never went to Vietnam. Now, in a related story, GW Bush seems to have gone AWOL from his position that was never in any danger of seeing combat. He would, later in life, be found guilty of DWI and admit to using cocaine. All of this is from first-hand verified sources. But none of it matters. Just ignore it. John Kerry changed his mind a couple of times. You don't want somebody who can change their mind, do you? No. You don't.

I would like the American government/media to become competant enough for Jon Stewart to have to put more than 10 seconds of effort into his show.

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:52 am

It was only a matter of time before some element of the Conservative groups in the US found some way of getting at him for being descended from immigrants and not being white surely?

Very sad, I quite liked him too.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:00 pm

Wait, they tried this before. Fox smeared him about it for about a day, and then some other news service sent a reporter over to his old school and did a really good ten-minute piece of actual journalism that refuted pretty much the entire Fox News piece. Do an internet search for it. This was like months ago.

edit: oh, this article was posted months ago. This is still going? Plz.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:02 pm

I'm sure Obama's political opponents are just throwing s*** against the wall to see what sticks at this point. Like KM said, this particular story is old news. This is all just prelims. He's not even assured of a nomination: if that becomes the case, rest assured, they'll start pulling out the big guns.

Obama is definitely the best candidate that has a chance in hell to be elected, although that almost for sure means he's not going to win. I wouldn't mind Hillary, though. Did you see that Sopranoes spoof the Clintons did? Hillarious.

Hillary, Obama, a Republican....our government is broken by our obsession to let money and free market ideology seep in everywhere anyway.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:09 pm

KingMob wrote:
edit: oh, this article was posted months ago. This is still going? Plz.

Meh. You think I've checked the news in the last two months?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:39 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:It was only a matter of time before some element of the Conservative groups in the US found some way of getting at him for being descended from immigrants

http://xkcd.com/c84.html

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:54 pm

aren't we all technically emmigrants from Africa anyway?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:25 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:aren't we all technically emmigrants from Africa anyway?

And if you only want to go back a few hundred years, aren't ALL United States citizens immigrants, save the Native Americans (who, like Karly said, are immigrants as well)?

Too bad logic and politics don't play well together.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:30 pm

... was kinda my point...

Karl Lynch wrote:aren't we all technically emmigrants from Africa anyway?

Word, nigger.

[/is evicted]

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:35 pm

Mongroid, Negroid, Caucasoid, I believe. Everything else is just ethnicities.

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:51 pm

Shanti418 wrote: our government is broken by our obsession to let money and free market ideology seep in everywhere anyway.

DAMN THAT MONEY AND LACK OF GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.

and the thought is actually that its the clinton camp digging up **** on obama.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:31 am

i love the notion that government interference is inherently a bad thing.

often from people who also happily support a party that wants to tap your phone.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:38 am

sprunkner wrote:
KingMob wrote:
edit: oh, this article was posted months ago. This is still going? Plz.
Meh. You think I've checked the news in the last two months?

Oh, I wasn't directing anything at you, it's the notion that there are people keeping things like this ticking over that I'm like 'please stop it and find some real reasons why one shouldn't like Obama if that's your agenda' about.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:20 pm

I quite like both Obama and Hilary. At least on the plus side the US will finnaly get a president who isnt a complete dick.

Hot Shot · Post by **Hot Shot** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:31 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I quite like both Obama and Hilary. At least on the plus side the US will finnaly get a president who isnt a complete dick.

Really? I'm pretty sure that Hillary has a complete dick.

No, seriously. If I was legal age I'd vote Clinton.

To get on topic, I don't think Obama is an extremist, and I doubt this will hurt his campaign. If anything, his Muslim background may help him because of the politicians and societies that think a Muslim president will make the extremists hate America less. I really hope this doesn't happen, but since when has hoping done anything?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:40 pm

Hot Shot wrote: To get on topic, I don't think Obama is an extremist, and I doubt this will hurt his campaign. If anything, his Muslim background may help him because of the politicians and societies that think a Muslim president will make the extremists hate America less. I really hope this doesn't happen, but since when has hoping done anything?

As much as I'd love to say, "Yes, being a Muslim WILL make him more popular with (presumably) US politicans and social groups, because the line of thinking will be, 'Hey, now that WE'RE being led by a Muslim, all those evil Muslims will stop trying to bomb us and start sending us cookies with the words "Yay Freedom! America kicks ass!" spelled on top with red, white and blue frosting.'" I am unfortunately bound by the rules of logic and reality to say otherwise.

First, Obama would not be a Muslim President. They address that point in the aritlce itself.

Secondly, and most importantly, even if you throw away terrorism, post 9/11 irrational fear of Islam, even if you throw away the fact that Islam is a religion comprised mostly of non Caucasians (all serious impediments to a Muslim having a chance in hell of being elected), We barely managed to elect a Catholic, and that was 40 years ago. If you're not some kind of Protestant denomination, you've got a slim to none chance of being elected. And if we ARE going to start electing non Protestants, then I'd think Jews and Mormons should be next in line, in terms of a percentage basis, lol.

As far as religion and the US Presidency, the Founding Fathers were mainly Deists, and it's gone downhill from there, IMHO.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:26 am

It could be worse. They could be treating him like Ron Paul and just refusing to give him airtime.

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:01 am

Best First wrote:i love the notion that government interference is inherently a bad thing.

often from people who also happily support a party that wants to tap your phone.

Government here, and presumably there, is an inherently a wasteful bureaucracy that loves to spendspendspend for no real goal. Time and time again it has been shown the free market allowing for an open flow of ideas/etc is a superior solution.

Look at the situation in France. One of the most socialist nations on Earth and they just [sweepingly] elected conservatives who, presumably, will put the country back to work and off the government's back [in the piggyback sense].

I love the notion that government intervention is not only welcome but necessary in everybody's lives.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:29 am

What do you propose, complete dismantling of welfare and free marketing of schools? This country may not work well all the time, but it works, partially because the infrastructure that is set in place is tried and tested.

Of course, those blanket statements on government are in the same vein as what other people on this board say about religion. So it's not like it's unexpected

And Barack Obama's a Protestant.

EDIT: In case I didn't stir things up enough, a speech from Obama on faith, one of the best things I've read on religion and politics in a long time:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:15 am

sprunkner wrote:What do you propose, complete dismantling of welfare and free marketing of schools? This country may not work well all the time, but it works, partially because the infrastructure that is set in place is tried and tested.

Tried. Tested. FAILED. The education system in the United States is absolutely pathetic. It is becoming worse by the day. Hey, students are failing their exams! What did the schools do? THEY LOWERED THE PASSING GRADES. More and more of the systems the US have in place have shown, beyond any reasonable doubt, that they do not work. So, yes, dismantle welfare and every other system that has utterly failed and build something that actually works a MAJORITY of the time.

sprunkner wrote: Of course, those blanket statements on government are in the same vein as what other people on this board say about religion. So it's not like it's unexpected

What's wrong with using blanket statements for religion? Religion is the cause of tremendous amounts of suffering in the US and the entire world. It is not, however, the cause of ANYTHING USEFUL. Without religion, a good person would still donate to charity, help out people in need, and abstain from stealing, raping, and killing, but would have one less justification for racism, sexism, and numerous other forms of discrimination.

sprunkner wrote: And Barack Obama's a Protestant.

Barack Obama believes in goblins, spooks, and demons and I don't want a person with that mindset in a position of international power. The last person in such a position said, in public, that God told him to invade another country, and, by proxy, that the estimated 100,000 to 300,000 civillian casualties in that war were justified. His father went so far as to say that Atheists should not be considered patriots or even citizens of the United States. Consider that for a moment. If you do not believe in an invisible cosmic superman, you shouldn't be considered an American citizen.

sprunkner wrote: EDIT: In case I didn't stir things up enough, a speech from Obama on faith, one of the best things I've read on religion and politics in a long time:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/

Nice. Now go watch "The Root of all Evil?" or "Paradise Lost" on Youtube to see how amazingly religion and politics have gone together in the past.

Post by **Kaylee** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:36 am

sprunkner wrote:
EDIT: In case I didn't stir things up enough, a speech from Obama on faith, one of the best things I've read on religion and politics in a long time:

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/

Ah, warms the cockles of your heart in a shmaltzy, hog-washy, 'this won't ever work out in the real world' kinda way

Yes it'd be great if some people took the concept of pluralism on board, but unfortunately that's fundamentally against the tennant of orthodox religious I understand. What can you do when people are convined they have an opinion that is utterly, inalienably and atomically right? Not so much the peeps who are willing to listen and consider, but those who have already decided they're right- so why bother listening?

Can it be I've discovered the true fault of mankind... our selfish ability to see nothing but ourselves? Might be on a par with my revelation that the reason for pain the world is God is a little bit drunk...

Selfishness. It's what's for dinner. And is also meant to be anathema to the pillars of religion! May I venture a LOL?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:27 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:
sprunkner wrote:What do you propose, complete dismantling of welfare and free marketing of schools? This country may not work well all the time, but it works, partially because the infrastructure that is set in place is tried and tested.
Tried. Tested. FAILED. The education system in the United States is absolutely pathetic. It is becoming worse by the day. Hey, students are failing their exams! What did the schools do? THEY LOWERED THE PASSING GRADES. More and more of the systems the US have in place have shown, beyond any reasonable doubt, that they do not work. So, yes, dismantle welfare and every other system that has utterly failed and build something that actually works a MAJORITY of the time.

Geez Smooth, get out from behind the "AMERICA SUX!!!!" -tinted glasses a second. Sprunk isn't saying that America's school system is the best. He's saying, in response to Leatherneck's post, that whatever sort of public school system we have is due to "government interference".

Furthermore, most if not all countries that have good school systems available to the vast majority of their populace base those systems on the idea of school as a right for all, of school as something for the community, of school as something we ALL put into and we all get something out of.

In other words, not

"Let's just drop public education into the free market"
"YES! The free market will tell us what is good to do!"
"The free market can not be wrong."
"Free Market!"

Oh yeah, the free market's been GREAT to US Health Care over the past twenty years (ie since it's been privatized).

So yea, the American system sucks, but is sucks DESPITE its slightly socialistic infrastructure, not because of it.

Smoothie wrote: What's wrong with using blanket statements for religion? Religion is the cause of tremendous amounts of suffering in the US and the entire world. It is not, however, the cause of ANYTHING USEFUL.

What's wrong with using blanket statements for religion is shown in yoru statement.

If you would have said, "For the most part religion has hurt the world more than it has helped it," that would be a solid statement, and debatably true.
But instead, you said, "Religion has never been the cause of anything useful," which is so ridiculous that I don't have time to respond to it.

Without religion, a good person would still donate to charity, help out people in need, and abstain from stealing, raping, and killing, but would have one less justification for racism, sexism, and numerous other forms of discrimination.

See, I have a problem with this line of thinking. It presupposes that there are these inherantly good people that are born and are going to do good deeds regardless of what happens to them.

My view is that people are born neither good nor bad. Over a short course of time, they get a basic sense of what people around them decide is "good" or "bad." A child could learn to do the aforementioned deeds through religion, or through some other code of ethics/values.

In other words, "Without religion, a person could still learn to donate to charity...., but religion could also teach them to do that as well."

Smoothie wrote:
Barack Obama believes in goblins, spooks, and demons and I don't want a person with that mindset in a position of international power. The last person in such a position said, in public, that God told him to invade another country, and, by proxy, that the estimated 100,000 to 300,000 civillian casualties in that war were justified. His father went so far as to say that Atheists should not be considered patriots or even citizens of the United States. Consider that for a moment. If you do not believe in an invisible cosmic superman, you shouldn't be considered an American citizen.

So you are saying that Obama, if elected, would be the only God believing Head of State in the world? Or do think that ALL Heads of State who believe in God will tend have the exact same mindest as Dubya? Or, are you saying that the US is SOOOOO cool that our leader has to be held to a different or higher standard then the rest of the world?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:15 am

Shanti418 wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote:
sprunkner wrote:What do you propose, complete dismantling of welfare and free marketing of schools? This country may not work well all the time, but it works, partially because the infrastructure that is set in place is tried and tested.
Tried. Tested. FAILED. The education system in the United States is absolutely pathetic. It is becoming worse by the day. Hey, students are failing their exams! What did the schools do? THEY LOWERED THE PASSING GRADES. More and more of the systems the US have in place have shown, beyond any reasonable doubt, that they do not work. So, yes, dismantle welfare and every other system that has utterly failed and build something that actually works a MAJORITY of the time.
Geez Smooth, get out from behind the "AMERICA SUX!!!!" -tinted glasses a second. Sprunk isn't saying that America's school system is the best. He's saying, in response to Leatherneck's post, that whatever sort of public school system we have is due to "government interference".

Furthermore, most if not all countries that have good school systems available to the vast majority of their populace base those systems on the idea of school as a right for all, of school as something for the community, of school as something we ALL put into and we all get something out of.

In other words, not

"Let's just drop public education into the free market"
"YES! The free market will tell us what is good to do!"
"The free market can not be wrong."
"Free Market!"

Oh yeah, the free market's been GREAT to US Health Care over the past twenty years (ie since it's been privatized).

So yea, the American system sucks, but is sucks DESPITE its slightly socialistic infrastructure, not because of it.

What can I say? America sucks in a great many ways. It sucks in just about every way that matters and in a great many that don't. The American public school system is dreadfully underfunded and, at its highest levels, run by people who seem to be in no way qualified to do so. America's private schools mostly seem to be of the religious variety, are funded decently, but can not help but confuse their students' notions of reality and fiction. Something needs to change. All this talk about how the American public school system (or just about any other system in that country) is "tried and tested" leaves out the most important part. They tried their idea. They tested their idea. Their idea FAILED. Just like so many of the schools' students have tried, been tested, and failed. I work in a public school in Japan and the difference between this type of school system and the American system, just in regard to funding, is as clear as the difference between night and day. For example, the government Board of Education, is willing to pay tens of thousands of US dollars to import, train, house, and ultimately employ native speakers to work in their Foreign Language classes.

Shanti418 wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote:

Smoothie wrote: What's wrong with using blanket statements for religion? Religion is the cause of tremendous amounts of suffering in the US and the entire world. It is not, however, the cause of ANYTHING USEFUL.

What's wrong with using blanket statements for religion is shown in yoru statement.

If you would have said, "For the most part religion has hurt the world more than it has helped it," that would be a solid statement, and debatably true.
But instead, you said, "Religion has never been the cause of anything useful," which is so ridiculous that I don't have time to respond to it.

Without religion, a good person would still donate to charity, help out people in need, and abstain from stealing, raping, and killing, but would have one less justification for racism, sexism, and numerous other forms of discrimination.
See, I have a problem with this line of thinking. It presupposes that there are these inherantly good people that are born and are going to do good deeds regardless of what happens to them.

My view is that people are born neither good nor bad. Over a short course of time, they get a basic sense of what people around them decide is "good" or "bad." A child could learn to do the aforementioned deeds through religion, or through some other code of ethics/values.

In other words, "Without religion, a person could still learn to donate to charity...., but religion could also teach them to do that as well."
Given a choice between a person making the choice to be charitable and a generally good person because of a general feelilng of "it's the right thing to do" and because "the invisible man in the sky who hates gays, blacks, women, amputees, anybody with a disability, people who have sex, etc says that I should or else I will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity because it says so in a book" I'd pick the former.

Yes, some people are "inspired" by religion to do good works. But those people are also inspired to do terrible things.

Smoothie wrote:
Barack Obama believes in goblins, spooks, and demons and I don't want a person with that mindset in a position of international power. The last person in such a position said, in public, that God told him to invade another country, and, by proxy, that the estimated 100,000 to 300,000 civillian casualties in that war were justified. His father went so far as to say that Atheists should not be considered patriots or even citizens of the United States. Consider that for a moment. If you do not believe in an invisible cosmic superman, you shouldn't be considered an American citizen.
So you are saying that Obama, if elected, would be the only God believing Head of State in the world? Or do think that ALL Heads of State who believe in God will tend have the exact same mindest as Dubya? Or, are you saying that the US is SOOOOO cool that our leader has to be held to a different or higher standard then the rest of the world?

All heads of state who genuinely believe in such crap should be replaced immediately because they are obviously unfit to hold such positions of power. If the head of your country referenced Ragnarok and said that he had Odin's blessing to invade Iraq, you'd ride him out of office on a rail. To use a more realistic comparison, look at the President of Iran. He talks about how his God tells him that he should destroy Israel and other infidels. Most of America looks at him like he's crazy (and rightly so) but these same people don't bad an eye when Bush says that God (who apparently speaks to him) told him to invade Iraq. Either these guys are hearing voices in their heads (a good sign that they're less than sane) or they're simply lying about it so that their people will go along with them.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:21 am

Professor Smooth wrote:
Shanti418 wrote:[So yea, the American system sucks, but is sucks DESPITE its slightly socialistic infrastructure, not because of it.
I work in a public school in Japan and the difference between this type of school system and the American system, just in regard to funding, is as clear as the difference between night and day. For example, the government Board of Education, is willing to pay tens of thousands of US dollars to import, train, house, and ultimately employ native speakers to work in their Foreign Language classes.

So you agree with sprunkner and I? Why the inital rebuttal to sprunk's response, then?

Professor Smooth wrote:

All heads of state who genuinely believe in such crap should be replaced immediately because they are obviously unfit to hold such positions of power. If the head of your country referenced Ragnarok and said that he had Odin's blessing to invade Iraq, you'd ride him out of office on a rail. To use a more realistic comparison, look at the President of Iran. He talks about how his God tells him that he should destroy Israel and other infidels. Most of America looks at him like he's crazy (and rightly so) but these same people don't bad an eye when Bush says that God (who apparently speaks to him) told him to invade Iraq. Either these guys are hearing voices in their heads (a good sign that they're less than sane) or they're simply lying about it so that their people will go along with them.

Well yeah, but we weren't asking about if you could preach to the choir. We were talking about Obama's opinion of religion and how it would guide him, not "Let's talk some more about how Bush sucks."

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:00 am

I take issue only with the "tried and tested" comment.

I make precious little distinction between Obama's brand of faith and Bush's. Both are potentially dangerous.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:30 pm

Professor Smooth wrote: I make precious little distinction between Obama's brand of faith and Bush's. Both are potentially dangerous.

In other words, "If you're not WITH the atheists, you're against us!"

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:54 pm

I learnt to give to charity - like billions of others have, without religion telling me to do so.

People in general will grow up to do good things - why? because when somthing bad happens in life, u dont like it, so people tend not to emulate it on others unless they have mentall issues - basis sociology 101 there.