US school shootings

Post by **Best First** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:51 am

The Last Autobot wrote:
Not only do I personally hold an idealistic viewpoint that the military (especially at this juncture in its history) is not brainwashed enough to fire upon US civillians
Too idealistic, I think.

i'd agree.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

thoughts?

i want to believe thsi artisle is a bit hysterical but i actually find it quite compelling, if more from a dictatorial than an actual fascist standpoint.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:26 am

Im not defending Bush but I think the same argument on many levels can be thrown at most western societys.

Some points are stronger than others, I guess my question would be, that when compared to Hitler, to what end would Bush be trying to create a similar state?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:40 am

i'm not sure that's the point, not having the same goals does not preclude not sliding towrards the same form of government - its about the apparatus of state and individual freedom rather than ideology. The Nazi example merely stands as testament to what can happen when government heads in this direction.

I'd say the Neocon agenda generally seems to be fuelled by an arrogant confidence in their own conservative beliefs (which if i was to boil down to its most basic level (possibly a bit too reductionist) would be keep the rich rich and keep everyone else in line) and a desire to remove any obstacles that slow down or impede them implimenting these beliefs.

However as stated who is going to reverse these powers when they may also benefit them? At the end of the day its easier to run a country when people have less rights.

i saying 'the same could be said of other societies' counts as any kind of contradiction.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:05 am

well put, but I still belive that a number of the points used to argue the authors case case can be thrown at any number of western governments who proclaim an public freedom.

For example, many countries in europe now have security cameras, so can it really be used as an example?

If you were to remove the common denominators from the argument, would it still work?

Thats not to say I dont feel the author has a point, because clearly he does, its just that when your trying to make a point about somthing that will most likely irk alot of people, you need to argue your case with instances that are hard to compare. The moment someone starts to argue that many of these points are coincidence of modern society, then your losing your way.

Thats of course a different matter, I just have a feeling that many people might instantly dissmiss the article for the same reasons, which is a shame because it clearly has a point to make.

Its hard to tell someone they live like Nazis...

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:17 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:
Shanti418 wrote: I personally hold an idealistic viewpoint that the military (especially at this juncture in its history) is not brainwashed enough to fire upon US civillians...
Ever heard of Kent State?

Of course, but there's a difference between a student demonstration where a National Guard kills four students to a HUUUUGE national outcry, and

Johnny and his barn full of uzis is not going to do much against a government armed with tanks, jets, and very large explosive devices. To say nothing of all the top-secret tech that billions of tax dollars fund

Using tanks, jet, or large explosive devices on the population would be a whole different ball of wax.

OK, fine, it's idealistic, everyone pile on me. I just think that those soldiers would have a lot of psychological baggage to get through. We're high on nationalism all the time, and even if a small incident were to occur, the imagery of a "Chinese student against a tank in T. Square" occuring in the US would be incredibly inciting to the public against the government that's trying to control it. It's much easier to use disciplinary power over sovreign power (Foucault rules!)

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:55 pm

The article makes a good point about erosion. Here on the Left Coast, where Bush is president only in name and people say his name like it's the F-bomb, the fascist state seems miles away.

But if they've pulled all this crap already, why can't they do more? Why not go all the way?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:07 pm

on the using Tanks against citizens... Waco anyone?

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:24 pm

Knowing the media, the government and everything else in the Usa. Who says that in an eventually outbreak it wouldnt be labeled as a terrorist act, as a sect or anything else to play with the post sept11 paranoid environment?

Not that the truth wouldnt be discovered anyhow, but it usually takes time.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:00 am

And its happened again, this time at a shopping mall.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/ap_ ... l_shooting

I am just waiting for the first person to say "at least it was only two people."

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:00 am

Professor Smooth wrote:And its happened again, this time at a shopping mall.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/ap_ ... l_shooting

I am just waiting for the first person to say "at least it was only two people."

The sensationalization of events like VA Tech usually leads to a few of these 'copycats', giving crazed individuals ideas and the courage to proceed with whatever deliquent thoughts pervade their minds.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:15 am

True. Course, there was one at a shopping mall in Utah in February:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Tue May 01, 2007 1:20 am

Best First wrote:on the using Tanks against citizens... Waco anyone?

Excellent point. How soon we forget? I remember the spin on the coverage of that whole event. Made the Koreshians to be the only villians, but looking back at what the government did, your point is very, very well taken.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Tue May 01, 2007 1:32 am

Following this line of reasoning is like jogging on a mobius strip.

Americans need guns! Why? To protect themselves! From who? Americans with guns!

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:57 pm

Yaya wrote:
Best First wrote:on the using Tanks against citizens... Waco anyone?
Excellent point. How soon we forget? I remember the spin on the coverage of that whole event. Made the Koreshians to be the only villians, but looking back at what the government did, your point is very, very well taken.

I still have to disagree. There's a difference between using tanks as intimidation while the FBI plant incendiary devices in a building full of an EXTREMELY marginalized population, and out and out rebellion/revolution. That was a hostage situation, that was not a situation where the US military was brought to bear on mainstream America.

Post by **Best First** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:34 pm

oh, sorry MAINSTREAM Americans.

Non mainstream is cool, fire away. Yeah there's kids in there, but not mainstream ones.

come on man, seriously?

"yeah, they dissapeared in the night, but they weren't mainstream germans"

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue May 01, 2007 6:46 pm

My ideological island appears to be in actuality an iceberg in the tropics, but yes. lol

I agree that anyone can be portrayed as marginalized, but I still think millions of Jews interspersed throughout a society does not equal less than 100 people on the outskirts of a small Texas town.

The US has never seen totaliterianism or a police state at home. We don't know what these things are. As long as their power functions on an invisible, coercive level to control people and maintain the status quo, as it does now, we will remain blissfully ignorant. But if that power manifests itself in heavy handed brute force by the government against large swaths of the American people, cultural schemas of personal responsibility, individualism, state's rights, and gun love will bubble to the surface, and people will not go quietly. And when people don't go quietly and when blood is shed, an all volunteer army will have a lot harder time fighting in comparison to a professional army, or an army borne of a society that preaches solidarity instead of individuality (like China).

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Wed May 02, 2007 6:16 am

Hey... my ancestors had the US Army sicced on them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War

(note that my ancestors also killed lots of innocent people)

Yay for polygamy!

Post by **Best First** » Wed May 02, 2007 7:55 am

sorry man, but you've been going quietly for years.

Blacksword · Post by **Blacksword** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:02 am

So has the UK, what with big brother cameras everywhere, that can now shout at you. We just started getting them in downtown Toronto here in Canada (minus the shouting)... Ladies and Gentlemen the future is now...

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 03, 2007 7:26 am

i'm not saying other countries aren't the same.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri May 04, 2007 3:41 am

Best First wrote:sorry man, but you've been going quietly for years.

I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

What?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:05 am

sprunkner wrote:
Best First wrote:sorry man, but you've been going quietly for years.
I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

What?

I think he was referring to my original comment about US citizens not going quietly if our "Brave New World" dystopia changes into a "1984" dystopia.

But any time you want to talk in HAL, by all means, please do so.