David Brin Takes The Piss Out of Star Wars

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:14 am

I love this. David Brin's essay on Phantom Menace, with some links back to his earlier pieces dissing Star Wars. The ultimate conclusion is that Yoda is the real villian.

http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:46 am

I don't think he's taking the piss really, he's got some valid points (some of which i agree with - particularly about questioning Lucas' storytelling /plotting abilities).

and yes, Lando and Chewie are the real heroes of the rebellion.

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:46 pm

...and WEDGE!!!!!!

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:55 pm

good stuff. Can't help but agree with most of it.

almost as good as this:

http://transfans.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

AWOOGA! AWOOGA!

SWs is a bit sh*t really isn't it?

There, i said it.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:05 pm

Is it? - I still really enjoy it.

Is any other film so scrutinised ?

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:07 pm

any comic book movie easily as much for starters.

all the Trek films by their respective fanbase.

That one about the transforming robots.

The Potter films.

etc etc.

i.e yes.

Hardly seems the point though, point is can you stand up to the scrutiny - SWs not even remotely.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:19 pm

Well I think the orginal 3 films are still my fav films, and I cant find any other film I enjoy as much.

I just think when u take things to extreams, and keep digging, you can find enough dirt to make somthing seem ******.

I love everything in SW, the Music, brillant, the characters are brillant, the Story, whilst simple is still great fun. And the special effects are still good, by todays standards high standards.

I dunno, if thats a **** film then the bar has deff moved.

LoTR was on last night, I was bored after 30mins and turned over to Planet Earth. which was amazing, so where does LoTR rank now? because last time I checked, SW and LoTR were the best films ever made.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:33 pm

ah, i find flaws with someting you like, i must be taking things to extremes. of course.

also i could just as easily say SWs has paper thin characters and a plot that's slightly less credible than that of, lets say, the Bible. woo! debate!

Good music and good special effects do not great cinema make.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:05 pm

So your saying SW isnt great cinema because the plot - to a fantasy film, isnt as credible as the bible?

Well, that can be debated, id argue that the bible portrays itself as truth where as SW is just a film, so I dont think they can have thier crediblity compared because they are sending out different messages.

I dont see whats wrong with the plot of SW, if you take the plot at face value it works fine, if you pull it apart then perhaps thier are some sort of flaws that might undermine its crediblity but my point about being extream is this.. do u need to look at somthing so closely to see the cracks?

On the surface SW is a brillant bit of film history, it remains popular to this day because it does what it was designed to do, entertain people, and it full-fills that role in every way a film of this type should.

the recent 3 films fail because the plot doesnt hold up even on the surface, it falls short the moment u watch it. the actors (bar ewan.m) dont have the same inpact and charisma as the orginal actors did and the film itself, the way it is filmed, the OTT action sequences fail to inspire like the old ones did on many levels.

If SW is now crap, then how come I still enjoy it? - I have seen many crap films, or just plain average movies that I cannot watch again for various reasons, acting, music, effects, plot etc... and I dont think SW is crap in any of these respects.

Also, when ranked along side other moder day films, perhaps Spiderman or LotR for example, lets say SW is not as good as these films, I dont think that makes SW 'crap' its just not as good - they are all great films end of the day.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:22 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:So your saying SW isnt great cinema because the plot - to a fantasy film, isnt as credible as the bible?

Well, that can be debated, id argue that the bible portrays itself as truth where as SW is just a film, so I dont think they can have thier crediblity compared because they are sending out different messages.

, er, i'm saying the plot doesn't stand up to scrutiny, i'm not saying that SW's is trying to be the basis for a religion - don't be ridiculous.

I dont see whats wrong with the plot of SW, if you take the plot at face value it works fine, if you pull it apart then perhaps thier are some sort of flaws that might undermine its crediblity but my point about being extream is this.. do u need to look at somthing so closely to see the cracks?

you don't need to look closely, whilst fun in places the plot is daft in others and has been made signifcantly dafter by the new films which undermine the old ones to no small degree.

On the surface SW is a brillant bit of film history, it remains popular to this day because it does what it was designed to do, entertain people, and it full-fills that role in every way a film of this type should.

sorry, what does that actually mean?

If SW is now crap, then how come I still enjoy it?

because opinion is ultimatly subjective?

that or fecalphelia.

Also, when ranked along side other moder day films, perhaps Spiderman or LotR for example, lets say SW is not as good as these films, I dont think that makes SW 'crap' its just not as good - they are all great films end of the day.

or equally, at the end of teh day, when its all over, and the fat lady has sung, and teh dust has settled and other cliches that don't actually add any weight to anyone's point maybe it was good once but age and distance and experience have changed some peoples opinions, like say may have happened for some poeple with a piece fo animation about transforming robots.

i still kind of like sw's...

but for me that's distinct from thinking it is qualitively good, which it probably isn't.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:48 pm

Well I guess this is two different debates now - one is.

Do u think SW is any good - which is someones opinion.
and
If I look at anything under a microscope, U can find a flaw.

Im not saying u have done this but David Brins essay for me is just OTT, I feel I could probably take just about any film, or whatever the best film in history is and apply a similar level of investigation untill I find a fault.

In regards to SW, unless you go digging, it doesnt seem crappy in any respects - maybe the hair-cuts...

Post by **Best First** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:16 pm

I assume what you are trying to say is that if you scrutinise something enough you will find a problem with it.

Probably true in most cases

However that in no way presupposes that finding problems with something is bad. I mean, some crazy people might go so far as to say that scrutiny is the path to improvement, the wacky blighters.

But you essentially seem to be saying you shouldn’t go looking for problems because you will probably find them.

Its all very well to say DB is OTT, but, er, can you actually fault his points? And can you successfully make a case that the messages behind something that millions and millions of people have been exposed to should not be scrutinised and questioned? Or credibly state why people should be dissuaded from dismantling something beyond a level that you are personally comfortable with and judging it based on their critical standards rather than your own?

Finally, the statement that SW’s isn’t crappy in any respects (i.e that its good in all respects), unless you go digging, I can only assume that by digging you mean, hmm, watching the film.

You can’t go from claiming such a thing is subjective to then trying objectively state that something is flawless. Well, you can, but people aren’t likely to listen.

“waaah, but I wanted to go into Tachiiii Staaaatiioon and pick up some poweeer converters”

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:33 pm

But then millions off ppl will never notice what DB saw, so whilst his points are valid and probably very credible, are they not almost pointless?

Isnt it akin to me pointing out the wonderfull paintjob on the London Eye and missing the splendor of London City - or even, doesnt London look beautifull from 400ft but when u get closer to the ground, its a bit dirty?

Im not sure ifppl view films that closely, I expect for many, a film is an experience, you either liked it or you didnt - the reasons for why you liked it were probably instantly clear, perhaps it was Yodas green skin etc... or maybe u didnt like SW because of Lukes line about buying power convertors.

Obviously lukes line didnt grate to many ppl because the film is much loved and respected, so perhaps it was Yodas skin that made difference, or Vaders penis shapped helmet, or a combination...
I guess what im saying is that for millions of SW viewers and fans, SW is taken at face value, and the decsion made by someone as to when they deems it 'good' or 'crap' is made quite quickly.

So, DB is probably correct but im not sure if I can watch SW (maybe im watching through rose tinted glasses for ever more) in the same light as he does.

Maybe when you stop watching films at face value, and start to anaylise thier fine points and details your not really watching a 'film' any more and your missing out on the 'experience'?

Its almost like talking about artwork - Monets pictures up close, are ****, they lack form and any kind of beauty but from afar they are brillant...

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:59 pm

I guess what im saying is that for millions of SW viewers and fans, SW is taken at face value, and the decsion made by someone as to when they deems it 'good' or 'crap' is made quite quickly.

Maybe when you stop watching films at face value, and start to anaylise thier fine points and details your not really watching a 'film' any more and your missing out on the 'experience'?

Ill change a little bit here and there and we will have a religion support argument.

I think Sw is great but the points DB made are quite right. You can like all you want something but that dont necesarilly make it perfect.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:10 pm

The Last Autobot wrote:...and WEDGE!!!!!!

absolutely, no one should EVER forget Wedge Antillies!

Wasn't he also the only english bloke in the films that wasn't a baddie?

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:34 pm

Impactor Returns wrote:But then millions off ppl will never notice what DB saw, so whilst his points are valid and probably very credible, are they not almost pointless?

Won't notice it till they read it, anyway.

Actually, Star Wars creeped me out ever since the obvious digs at minorities in Phantom Menace. This stuff pretty much confirms what I've suspected since I first saw those damn Trade Federation folks acting much like Mickey Rooney (or was it Andy?) in Breakfast at Tiffany's.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:12 am

Star Wars and minorities? Where?

Personally I agree with him (and I was always more of a Trekkie anyway). Especially about Yoda and the whole sanctimonius Jedi Knight order... Palpatine might be an evil Sith Lord, but he was right - the Jedi Order was secretly running the Republic in the background. Think of it - would any goverment want a peace-keeping agency whose agents can control your minds?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:15 am

Or you can have a government that is Evil and controll minds instead?

Obfleur · Post by **Obfleur** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:37 am

http://www.imdb.com/news/wenn/2006-11-06/#celeb6

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:40 am

Legion wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:...and WEDGE!!!!!!
absolutely, no one should EVER forget Wedge Antillies!

Wasn't he also the only english bloke in the films that wasn't a baddie?

Nah, he's a Scot. I think that's how they got around the Hollywood law that says all classy bad guys must be English.

Unless 3P0 and R2 count?

Brin's articles were a good read, and he has some cracking points...tho I can see how some peeps may get a bit miffed with his relentlessly cheery approach to skewering their holy cow. Ta for the link!

Apart from the really cool swordfight at the end (altho this is marred by the cutting away to the supermarioworld fight between the CGI legions every now and then?) the Phantom Menace is pretty hard to defend, surely? Except for nostaliga and technical reasons, i guess.

As to SW as a whole, do peeps not rate the first and second movies anymore? The first is a nostalgia headtrip, and the second is a decent film, no?
I would be interested to read some good criticism of ESB to see what I may have missed about it's possible crapness....

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:46 am

KingMob wrote:
Legion wrote:
The Last Autobot wrote:...and WEDGE!!!!!!
absolutely, no one should EVER forget Wedge Antillies!

Wasn't he also the only english bloke in the films that wasn't a baddie?
Nah, he's a Scot. I think that's how they got around the Hollywood law that says all classy bad guys must be English.

I never realised he was a Scot, that would explain it.

KingMob wrote: Unless 3P0 and R2 count?

Hmmm... but they were effectively servents to the American characters, so that's prolly ok too (like you get English butlers and stuff in films too).

KingMob wrote: I would be interested to read some good criticism of ESB to see what I may have missed about it's possible crapness....

ESB is the best of all of them, ANH being second best... IMHO of course!

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:16 pm

Legion wrote:ESB is the best of all of them, ANH being second best... IMHO of course!

Not just your opinion - http://www.imdb.com/chart/top
ESB is at #10, ANH in 11th place.

Interesting list, Pulp Fiction is ahead of both

Blacksword · Post by **Blacksword** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:36 pm

I'm with Besters and DB on this. The issue here is not that people will see all of the things he points out, rather it's that they won't see. People will watch these movies and other stories like them and subconsciously absorb their message. That is that only elites and supermen count, all governmental structures are useless so we should opt out, etc, etc.

SW can be a fun watch.... well mostly Empire... the rest are just pretty films with a dubious message. They are harmless if you know the message that they give, but if one is not they do have the potential to shape people's opinions and perspectives. So Star Wars and other bits of "light entertainment" are not simply harmless, rather all entertainment carries messages in it, whether these are conscious or not.

Oh and DB says he liked Empire, and despite it's flaws he also approves of Star Trek for its more democratic outlook.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:35 pm

I just kind of ignored this topic after my first impression of the DB article was, "Whoa, this guy has waaaay too much time on his hands, and I don't need to read pages of text to tell me that SW is unrealistic and is full of holes". But I feel obliged at this point, I suppose.

SW is based on archetypes. All of the redemption, the betrayel, the father/son stuff, virtually all of the real meat of what goes on over the 6 movies is all tried and true story material.

In that sense, I don't think that the plot is holy.

It's like a sandwich. If I were to make a sandwich, and then someone comes in and says the mustard isn't spread evenly. It's like, that's a justifiable point, but it's not enough to throw away the sandwich over.

Similariliy, I shouldn't expect steak from a sandwich, either.

SW is a fun popcorn movie that basically throws together lots of historical literary themes and slow cooks them in sci fi broth. Asdie from the real meat of the story, there are plenty of hits and plenty of continuity, plot hole misses in trying to establishe a back story and universe.

Now this whole "Defer to the Supermen/Government is useless" angle is interesting, though. Letting the Supermen (anyone from Spider Man to a bad ass cop who doesn't play by the rules) deal with things is a time tested tradition in cinema, and I've no doubt that people DO subconciously absorb that message.

It's like what I always try and tell my "West Wing" addicted friend. Seeing a progressive, realistic, caring, intelligent President on TV, while entertaining and a good form of escapism, most likely lessens the expectation and pressure for that to occur in real life. People conceptualize a bad ass wise President as something that could only occur in fictional entertainment.

And, depending on your government, perhaps your structures ARE useless. If that's so, opting out and building alternative structures like a Rebel Alliance is the way to go.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:08 pm

Maybe being struck down and becoming more powerful than Darth could possibly imagine screwed up his memory, but how come Obi-Wan forgets all about Leia?

Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.
Obi-Wan: Another...oh, wait, you mean his sister? Leia? The one we left with the Organas? The one who was asking for my help in that holo-message R2 had...the same R2 I couldn't remember owning last movie...didn't we, like, go and rescue her from the Death Star? ...wait, who are you again?

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:52 am

Dammit, Shanti, I'm hungry now.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:22 am

Metal Vendetta wrote:Maybe being struck down and becoming more powerful than Darth could possibly imagine screwed up his memory, but how come Obi-Wan forgets all about Leia?

I always put that down to the possibility that Leia wasn't naturally strong in the force like Luke was, she had force potential, but not without training. Luke was much more force aware than her, which is why Obiwan was sent out as his guardian and why he was thought of as their best hope. Leia must've been weaker in the force than luke, so she was second best hope.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:17 am

While I have concerns/criticisms about the SW trilogy, they're not really the same as Brins. Bad acting and gaping plot holes upset me more. Would've loved to have heard what he thought of AOTC and ROTS though.

Shanti418 wrote:Seeing a progressive, realistic, caring, intelligent President on TV, while entertaining and a good form of escapism, most likely lessens the expectation and pressure for that to occur in real life. People conceptualize a bad ass wise President as something that could only occur in fictional entertainment.

You've gotta love the way he solved the middle east crisis over a weekend.

Damn, I wish he was President.

Still, good results in the mid terms I hear...

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:35 pm

subliminal messaging? - oh [composite word including 'f*ck'] off, this guy is having a laugh.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:42 pm

ha, i just came online (ew) to check the midterms.

Whan i say SWs is a bit **** in mean overall, obviously Empire in itself is a well constructed movie.

i'm too hungover to contribute more at this point, which is a shame as Shanti's post is ver interestang, ya