Fate

[sprunkner]

Enough of this religion thing: who believes in fate? Who believes that things happen for a reason, that one ends up in the right place or with the right person because it's meant to be? Is it all choice, all fate, or something in between? No wishy-washying on the answers.

[edit] In complete contrast to the above statement, I added "I'm not sure" when I realized I didn't know which one to pick.

[Kaylee]

Whether we humans have 100% accurate representations of them or not, I believe the Universe runs according to laws: Gravity varies as to the inverse square of the distance, Force = mass x acceleration et cetera. Probability is generally to do with human beings inability to measure things exactly (we always approximate to some degree) and the multiplication of uncertainty when we run probability through Mathematics.

Bearing this in mind, since everything happens according to prewritten scripts, there must be one and only one way for all things to occur- i.e. if we knew enough about a simple closed system, and all the laws acting upon it, we could predict everything that happens through cause and effect- that is we know the start position of all things, we know how their movements are dictated, therefore we know where they will end up.

Now theoretically (although obviously outside human powers) we could scale this system up to encompass the whole universe and the laws up to a Grand Theory of Everything. We could therefore predict how every particle, field and EM wave could behave.

Since human behaviour (ignoring baseless ideas of souls or 'spirits') seems to be dictated by our genes and by our upbringing, and both of those things are causal (i.e. if we knew enough about the parents and enough about the universe we could predict both) and since the human mind is an ongoing series of chemical reactions- assuming we knew enough about the state of the mind and how it worked, we could predict everything that person would do given a stimulus.

The fact that human beings do not and may never have such deep knowledge of the human brain and the universe is neither here nor there imo, the fact that it could be done is the only grounding needed.

Bearing in mind therefore that one can predict all things, if one knows enough about them, then all things are predetermined- i.e. there is one and only one way for them to happen in this Universe (although alternate realities may be acted out elsewhere etc.)

So it's my considered opinion that there is a 'fate', although that's a simplistic way of looking at it. However, since humans are unaware of it and operate under the delusion of their own agency it doesn't make any difference (how many people really accept they feel a feeling because of a chemical reaction, a hormone injection from a gland or because of a firing pattern of cells in their brain?)

[Impactor returns 2.0]

I agree with what your saying but the fate of science in comparison to say being hit by a bus the next time u the cross the road seem on opposite poles?

[Kaylee]

I agree with what your saying but the fate of science in comparison to say being hit by a bus the next time u the cross the road seem on opposite poles?

I think i know what you mean- we as humans don't know what will happen, so from our perspective there is no fate since we cannot determine what will happen.

If, however, we could somehow measure everything in the Universe and model how it all works, we would know exactly where everything is and where it will be at all points in time (assuming perfectly accurate measurements) so we could predict everything that would happen.

Obviously humans can't do this, but that in theory it would be possible to do so (with a powerful enough model and enough measurements) means that in fact the Universe must be deterministic, or to put it another way that there is no free will. We all operate by laws- we do what we do because a neuron fired in our head, a hormone was released or some trait from our upbringing kicked in, or so I theorise

It's purely academic as such measurements are impossible, it's just an interesting thing to consider :3

[Brendocon]

I regard fate as a general refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions.

"Oh, well. It was fated to happen."

If something's fated to happen, regardless of what you do, then why bother doing anything? I mean, if it's fate, it'll happen anyway, right?

Rubbish.

I don't believe in fate, I don't believe in predestination, I don't believe in nuffink. I do believe that other people's [composite word including 'f*ck']-ups have a far greater influence on the outcomes of our own scenarios than we do, but to surrender all responsibility is, well, cowardly in my view.

There's too many variables for everything that happens to be preordained.

[Kaylee]

I regard fate as a general refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions.

"Oh, well. It was fated to happen."

If something's fated to happen, regardless of what you do, then why bother doing anything? I mean, if it's fate, it'll happen anyway, right?

Rubbish.

I don't believe in fate, I don't believe in predestination, I don't believe in nuffink. I do believe that other people's ****-ups have a far greater influence on the outcomes of our own scenarios than we do, but to surrender all responsibility is, well, cowardly in my view.

There's too many variables for everything that happens to be preordained.

Then human beings (and other things) must act entirely on their own agency without influence, but this surely isn't the case? We do what we do because of the configuration of our brains and bodies, which are a combination of nurture and nature afaik. In a purely technical sense humans are machines running a (complex) program, just like any other beasty afaics.

You're point of culpability is well seen however as it can be used to attempt to correct the minds of individuals who do bad things- rehabilitation, fear of prison etc. which require a point of blame for these things to work.

[Shanti418]

I agree with Karl as well, except to say that the notion of calculating all the variable of the socialization of a human with the whatever predetermined characteristics they may have in their DNA is sooooooooo completly out of the realm of human possibility of understanding, it almost needs to go unmentioned.



Personally, and this is getting back into the religion thing, I've always seen the God I believe in as a sort of form of anti entropy. Karma, coincidence, conscience, these I believe are manifestations of a metaphysical force acting in our reality.

At the same time, I also have to throw in a little Buddhism. I believe that life is a series of paths. And, if you believe science today, your life is nothing but a possibility in a series of possibilites which are acted out somewhere. So, you can look and listen to yourself and the world around you, and find a path that "feels" like it fits you, or you can take a passive approach to your own existence, in which case no amount of fate is ever going to get you to where you want to be.

[Kaylee]

An interesting extension (although an aside) of that was proposed in God's debris- since we are all stardust, and since sooner or later we will return to the stars, and since the Universe appears to be cyclical with Big Bangs and Big Crunches (according to a recent study reported in New Scientist) that sooner or later, according to probability, we must all live again. It might takes billions of cycles, but eventually I will exist again exactly as I am now- it's just a matter of time. Since my body is being replaced all the time one cell at a time, then there's not really any difference between this me and the next. Veery interesting it is :3 [/Yoda]

We should have philosophical chats like this more often

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Unless u are eaten by a black hole that is...

[Brendocon]

Then human beings (and other things) must act entirely on their own agency without influence, but this surely isn't the case? We do what we do because of the configuration of our brains and bodies, which are a combination of nurture and nature afaik.

I refer you to my comment about other people having far greater influence upon us than we do. Which I realise wasn't phrased to cover the point as broadly as I might have hoped.

Certainly, we're driven by events outside our sphere of control - arguing otherwise is pointless - but it doesn't automatically mean that everything we do will happen regardless of how we attempt to influence it.

A nature/nurture example thingey... It's silly to believe that we'd be the same people we are now if our parents had just said "oh, don't bother - just let him sit in the corner... if he's fated to be anything, he'll get there regardless."

And I realise that it's possible I slightly misread Karl's post... but I'll leave it like this anyway...

[Kaylee]

Unless u are eaten by a black hole that is...

Black holes don't destroy matter, they recycle it :3

Or so Dr. Hawking tells us.

& coolness @ Brendocon

[Guest]

Unless u are eaten by a black hole that is...

Black holes don't destroy matter, they recycle it :3

Or so Dr. Hawking tells us.

1. A particle of matter can be annhilated during an interaction with its antiparticle resulting in a wave of energy.

2. A wave of energy can spontaneously, or in the presence of a strong materially-generated field, create a particle of matter and its antimatter twin.

If scenario 2 is immediately (or expected to be) followed by scenario 1, the matter pair in the interim are called 'virtual'.

Matter and energy are consumed by black holes, however, virtual particles created near black holes can result in promotion to 'real' particles if only one of the pair is consumed while the other escapes.


As far as predestination goes in what we believe is a relativistic universe, it's a little difficult knowing what state the universe was in at any particular moment as time is also relative, so slicing up the space-time in order to predict any event becomes extremely difficult.

Another point of view would suggest that it is impossible to model the universe from inside itself as doing so would require the entireity of the universe to model it.