The illegal immigration thing

[sprunkner]

Waitaminnit waitaminnit waitaminnit. What the f***?

Are you actually reading my posts? I never said the South was any more racist than any other area towards immigrants. I was talking about a Southern tendency to tolerate racism towards black people. If anything, they're less racist towards immigrants there than whites are in California.

What the hell is this? I'm not a one-man South bashing machine. I'm using it as a comparison to show that an upperclass doesn't always want to privilege the lower class. Are you just skimming my posts?

[Best First]

i think he is skimping everyone's posts...

Maybe you dont solve a countries problems but you do alleviate the lives of the citizens born there with no choice.

So, just to clarify, you think that whenever a country has a problem the best way to resolve it would be to move everyone out of that country to a country that doesn’t have the same issues? You think this is a sensible and workable approach yes? And you think that the existing notion of asylum doesn’t already cover the notion of people fleeing persecution yes?

I can see I am dealing with a formidable intellect.

Europe is criticizing Turkey for being non-democratic while simultaneously forcing Turkish citizens to remain in this non-democratic state.

So we are back to your much better plan of allowing everyone to leave, eh? In what way is that even remotely workable, from an economic or cultural perspective?

I think the HR criticism of Turkey is used to veil a much more dubious stance in Europe. A stance I dont necesarilly criticize since I am not the one who has to deal with the issue. I, however, do not appreciate ulterior motives.

So, you don’t have an issue with islamaphobia per se, but when someone has an ulterior motive you are all over it? I see.

As far as I understand it, even if there are ulterior motive Turkey have been given a pretty clear set of targets, so are working against measurable goals – can’t really say fairer than that.

I didnt mean to single out anyone in this forum. In fact, a couple did relate it back to the UK (Scraplet notably). You have to admit that posting cartoons about the topic does trivialize it and make it seem "silly" though. [/quote

No, I see satire as a valid form of critique

No I dont think this is about a specific incident in the US.

this topic was started due to a specific incident in the US. Read the posts.

This is about immigration as a wider phenomenom. To criticize people from the south as racist while ignoring immigration restrictions in other parts of the world is hypocritical.

No one is being hypocritical or deliberately ignoring anything. Read the posts. Oh, and **** off calling people hypocrites for no other reason that you either havn’t botheerd to read what they are saying or lack the wit to understand it.

If people on this board do feel that unlimited immigration should be allowed into Europe, then perhaps this would be an opportune time to express that sentiment. Wouldnt you agree that "the US should grant citizenship to all illegals, because I want my country to do the same" is a much better stance than "the US should be forced to grant citizenship to all illegals, while we shall have no discussion on Europe at all"

I think I’d mainly agree that you can’t read:

1) No one, anywhere in this topic, has said tat unlimited immigration is a good idea. With the exception of you obvioulsy, who seems to think that the way to resolve any issues Turkey has with human rights is to remove all the humans from Turkey. Clever
2) No one has said I think the the US should do one thing but I want my country to do another. Any such thing is an inference on your part and a stupid one at that. Read the posts.
3) No one is trying to curtail discussion of the issue in a broader sense (several people have actively widened the scope of the topic)
4) Homogenising several peoples points into one bizarre gestalt opinion, adding a few bits of your own and then accusing everyone of having this new bizarro opinion that you appear to have created in a lab is never going to reflect well on you. Read the posts.
5) Even if you are right your are effectively saying that every time someone states their opinion about one part of an issue they must in fact state their opinion on every part of an issue – its like you having a go at someone in a topic about Hitler for not listing every other world leader through history that they also disapprove of because you have, for no reason, assumed that because they have not specifically mentioned their disapproval of them that they must in fact love them.

I read a lot of European message boards and media sources besides this one,

which has relevance to people’s opinions here how?

it just seems so strange to me how the issues in the US vs. Europe are portrayed so differently.

The US and Europe are different. However no one in this topic has mad e apoint of saying they differ significantly or should differ on these issues. Read the posts.

I have yet to see one person on any board anywhere post a message in total support of massive migration from North Africa/Turkey, yet the number of posts characterizing Southerners as racist for denying citizenship to illegal migrants is ridiculous.

eh?

That’s like writing “I like ham but I can’t bielive you approve of the current price of petrol”

1) No one else in the topic is making economic migration synonimous with a ‘massive migration’ on the scale you seem to be implying. Read the posts.
2) No one has characterised southeners as racist. Read the posts.

Read. The. Posts.

FFS.

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Ive read the posts. I also see you progressing towards a very condescending attitude. You ok there man?

I am ALL for legal immigration. But the bottom line for me is if I have to follow the law, then EVERYONE does.

[Best First]

Ive read the posts. I also see you progressing towards a very condescending attitude. You ok there man?

no, but that's got nothing to do with this topic.

i tend to adopt a condescending tone in response to people putting words in other peoples mouths, making statements backed up with little other than opinion rather than fact and the like and i have no issues with doing it.

I am ALL for legal immigration.

no one is saying you aren't.

But the bottom line for me is if I have to follow the law, then EVERYONE does.

which, and i'm sorry if you don't like this, isn't a complicated enough approach to the issue. Why you act is never a good measure of why other people act becuse you are not neccessarily reponding to the same set of incentives or values, and if you don't endevour to understand why other people are acting in the way they do then you are never going to be in a position to effectively do much about an issue. Putting yourelf in other peoples shoe's isn't always easy but in terms of moving things forward its usually useful.

[Shanti418]

No, you don't understand....

Here in America, what is ethical IS what is legal and/or profitable. Unless it's gay.

Here in America, empathy and trying to understand where other people come from and accepting and giving weight to experinces and perspectives other than your own is totally dead.

I understand where OPR is coming from, and this sounds condescending, but I don't really know of any way to put it, but he's shadowboxing. Corporations set the have a littles against the have nots, and watch them fight it out over scraps, letting their own insecurities and xenophobias get the best of them, when the reality is, corporations don't give a s*** if you're Mexican, American, or purple. They're going to pit you against one another for the lowest wage.

[wideload]

ok ive hit a sore note here and I feel we're getting off topic.

Please answer me the following:

1) Do you feel that the US should grant citizenship to illegals or relax there immigration policy in any way?

2) Should other countries be held to this same standard?

3) Why should we ignore the immigration/integration issues of other countries and focus discussion entirely on the US?

Also I never advocated removing all people from Turkey. I was making the point that if the US must take illegals it more or less removes the effectiveness of the border by allowing free movement. If you believe this is a sound policy then why not institute the same one for Turks and North Africans in Europe?

[wideload]

No, you don't understand....

Here in America, what is ethical IS what is legal and/or profitable. Unless it's gay.

Here in America, empathy and trying to understand where other people come from and accepting and giving weight to experinces and perspectives other than your own is totally dead.

I understand where OPR is coming from, and this sounds condescending, but I don't really know of any way to put it, but he's shadowboxing. Corporations set the have a littles against the have nots, and watch them fight it out over scraps, letting their own insecurities and xenophobias get the best of them, when the reality is, corporations don't give a s*** if you're Mexican, American, or purple. They're going to pit you against one another for the lowest wage.

I think people realize they are pitted against one another. That is why they are advocating removing the illegals. It's not just corporations who are responsible either, it's small business owners and anyone who employs another human being for any job at all. Which includes just about everyone.

If we had an influx of doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.. coming in from Mexico I guarantee you we would see a lot more people in those classes complaining about the immigration. Since now the problem primarily effects working class people it's easy to write it off as xenophobia and racism.

[Best First]

ok ive hit a sore note here and I feel we're getting off topic.

great avoidance tactic.

Also you have not 'hit a sore spot' - that would imply your arguemtenst wre provocative, when in fact its your absurd paraphrasing and bizarre imaginings of what people are saying that are provocative.

1) Do you feel that the US should grant citizenship to illegals or relax there immigration policy in any way?

i feel (and that's just me, not everyone at transfans before you start accusing everyone of being hypocrites) that the US should focus on how illegal labour is used if it is concerned about stemming illegal immigration.

2) Should other countries be held to this same standard?

what, the one no one has set?

3) Why should we ignore the immigration/integration issues of other countries and focus discussion entirely on the US?

you're a bit special aren't you? NO ONE. ANYWHERE. IN. THIS. TOPIC has suggesed this, merely they (i) have suggested that your ridiculous suggestion that because its not being specicially discussed people are hypocrites is a) wrong b) stupic c) insulting b) stupid.

Also I never advocated removing all people from Turkey. I was making the point that if the US must take illegals it more or less removes the effectiveness of the border by allowing free movement. If you believe this is a sound policy then why not institute the same one for Turks and North Africans in Europe?

no one has said it is a sound policy.

read. ungh. the. ungh. posts. ungh ungh ungh.

Jesus titty f***ing christ.

[wideload]

1) Do you feel that the US should grant citizenship to illegals or relax there immigration policy in any way?

i feel (and that's just me, not everyone at transfans before you start accusing everyone of being hypocrites) that the US should focus on how illegal labour is used if it is concerned about stemming illegal immigration.

What is the solution then? In a country w/ 300 million people there will always be less scrupulous people willing to use cheaper labour. This happens in every part of the world. If the US banned all illegal labour and deported all non-citizens would this be a fair solution since the would no longer be using this labour? Please stop dancing around the issue and state your opinion. Then state whether or not that same opinion should apply to your own country, and if not why.

2)

what, the one no one has set?

Please tell me what you think the policy should be. Removal of all illegals? Citizenship for all? I am curious at this point what policy you think should be set?

3)

you're a bit special aren't you? NO ONE. ANYWHERE. IN. THIS. TOPIC has suggesed this, merely they (i) have suggested that your ridiculous suggestion that because its not being specicially discussed people are hypocrites is a) wrong b) stupic c) insulting b) stupid.

I believe my suggestion that this issue relates to a wider policy in all Western countries "bizzare". I'm curious why. In political discussion it's quite common to draw analogy to other similar situations.

no one has said it is a sound policy.

read. ungh. the. ungh. posts. ungh ungh ungh.

Jesus titty f***ing christ.

umm.... with the exception of OPR and Smooth everyone in this topic has advocated allowing more immigration.

Predabot: "Just open the borders up completely"
you: "the migrants aren't allowed legitimacy"
sprunkner: "They are part of our culture and they have a basic human right to be here"
Others drew cartoons that ridiculed many people's position.

I've read the posts... all of them.

[Best First]

What is the solution then? In a country w/ 300 million people there will always be less scrupulous people willing to use cheaper labour. This happens in every part of the world. If the US banned all illegal labour and deported all non-citizens would this be a fair solution since the would no longer be using this labour? Please stop dancing around the issue and state your opinion. Then state whether or not that same opinion should apply to your own country, and if not why.

Ok, just to clear something up: f*** off.

At no point have i in any way implied that any comments I make should only be applied to countries other than my own – yet you keep trying to paint me, and others as a hypocrite because no one specifically mentioned their own country when responding to a topic started with reference to a protest in America by illegal immigrants in America. ****ing knock it off.

And I am not dancing around anything.

I believe my suggestion that this issue relates to a wider policy in all Western countries "bizzare". I'm curious why. In political discussion it's quite common to draw analogy to other similar situations.

NO. ONE. HAS. SAID. IT. ISNT.

Hoever, some prick, rather than broadening the debate by raising points about other countries in a sensible manner, started by assuming that anyone who thought illegal immigrants deserved some kind of rights or their situation required rethinking or that they had some kind of point a) supported unlimited immigration and b) wanted to deny entry to Turks into Europe when no one had said any such thing. Look, here’s the stupid post now:

My question has always been this. If the US is expected to allow unlimited immigration from latin america, then why not have unlimited migrants from turkey and north africa into europe? Why do the same people who criticize working class US citizens deny Turkey entry into the EU?

no one has said it is a sound policy.

read. ungh. the. ungh. posts. ungh ungh ungh.

Jesus titty f***ing christ.

umm.... with the exception of OPR and Smooth everyone in this topic has advocated allowing more immigration.

Predabot: "Just open the borders up completely"
you: "the migrants aren't allowed legitimacy"

How does my quote support the an argument of increased migration? Clue: doesn’t

sprunkner: "They are part of our culture and they have a basic human right to be here"

Again, How does that quote support the an argument of increased migration? It’s a discussion of the people who are already there.

So actually that’s, er… one quote. If you are going to pull quotes out of context at least be smart enough to make them work…

Others drew cartoons that ridiculed many people's position.

Er, there’s one cartoon in the whole topic? And it doesn’t even seem aimed at anyone in particulars opinion? Do you see?

I've read the posts... all of them.

so you just can't understand them, huh? Glad we cleared that up.

Or, if you have read them all, you will already know what my solution is and who I apply it too. But, sigh, it seems you don’t…

[Optimus Prime Rib]

ill reply more when im not feeding KaeLynn

[wideload]

Best First

you are dancing around a solution w/out explicitly stating it. You have said the US economy needs them, but havent given any actual figures or evidence to support this. You havent said which steps you support to deal with this problem either. Can I assume you are advocating giving full citizenship to illegals working in America at the moment?

Again, How does that quote support the an argument of increased migration? It’s a discussion of the people who are already there.

By giving everybody who is already there through illegal means citizenship it promotes further illegal immigration in a massive way. You are rewarding people for doing something illegal when there are massive amounts of people waiting in cue to immigrate the legal way. So yes that position does support immigration: 1) by allowing the people who are already there to immigrant (which btw they havent since they are not yet citizens) and 2) by encouraging more to enter illegally

For the record illegals do have rights in the US now. The debate is not about giving them rights, it is about giving them full fledged citizen status.

Hoever, some prick, rather than broadening the debate by raising points about other countries in a sensible manner, started by assuming that anyone who thought illegal immigrants deserved some kind of rights or their situation required rethinking or that they had some kind of point a) supported unlimited immigration and b) wanted to deny entry to Turks into Europe when no one had said any such thing. Look, here’s the stupid post now:

Umm no i didnt do this. I said opinions I have read thus far seem to take a different stance on European immigration than American immigration. My original post did not specify anyone on this board, and in fact was based largely on information I have read on other boards (the BBC most notably, which is a much larger sample than this board).

I personally think this does broaden the debate. After spending the last couple years of my life working in kitchens, I know what a difficult job it is. I also know how devastating it would have been to see my wages cut or even lose my job due to illegal immigration. Please dont condescend by adding the whole "maybe you should learn to work harder for your job argument". After spending time in a slugish vancouver economy that was not an option. It took me several months to get my foot in the door to get that job despite having a university degree. Despite the fact I have managed to work my way out of that situation, I have respect for those who didnt have the resources to do the same.

yes there was only one cartoon in this thread. But yes it was of a very ridiculing nature. Also several other posts were of a similar nature. Joking about KFC, saying that americans should accept it because they slaughtered indians. So by the time I made my first post, people on this board (mostly living in European countries) had made many posts ridiculing American posistions without even a mention of the problems in Europe. I'll admit my post was inflammatory, but it was in response to equally inflammatory posts. Basically the thing that erks me here is that this is a very serious issue for many americans, and the satirical nature of many posts was not appreciated by me. I would appreciate some sympathy for those people who do have to deal with this. Many of them don't have very much and work very hard for what they do have.

[Metal Vendetta]

Eh, I did have something useful to contribute, but now all I can think of is:

ill reply more when im not feeding KaeLynn

[Optimus Prime Rib]

Eh, I did have something useful to contribute, but now all I can think of is:

ill reply more when im not feeding KaeLynn

/spits coke on monitor

You sick sick bastard lol