I like comics, How 'bout you?

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:42 pm

Eh, it's a bit rubbish but not entirely pointless. It changes the status quo of...well, nearly everyone? Whether those changes are good or not...
Plus generated new readers and put some political allegory out there in Fight!Punch! comics, I suppose.

And I'm geeky enough to admit I loved the Spider-Man "Amazing" "Spectacular" sequence.

CW fell apart from Clor onwards, but was still fun.

I expect Spider-Man Back in Black will be explained in... Spider-Man Back in Black. See you next issue, True Believer!

I can't remember, did Doc Strange hint at how he thought staying out of things was a mistake when the Watcher came to see him in CW #6? I expect we'll get his reasons for joing the New Avengers...in New Avengers.
I'm more curious as to why Cap stalwarts like Falcon and Hercules didn't join the NA's. One or both of them would make more in-universe sense than Wolverine, who's only on the team for real world $$$.

Amazing Spidey was an exercise in not really saying anything about anything and then ooops old lady shot go ambulance now.

Best Marvel comics this week for me were Immortal Iron Fist (but of course I'm a whore for this book) and Punisher War Journal, which was ******* hilarious.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:11 pm

Hmm.

Thing that really got me was the worlds most superest tactician EVA! who cares loads about human life and freedom decides to stage a battle in... the middle of one of the Wolrds largest cities.

So essentially the whole thing underlying Cap's 'realisation' is pretty stupid.

Agree that Spidey kicking chuff was a nice geekgasm.

I don't think Tony came off as a great hero though - more of a smug asswipe.

Overall - a let down, but i'm intrigued as to where it will all go next although equally a bit worried that the whole status quo shake up will just be something that writers forget about over time.

In terms of ASM... better May than MJ i guess, but still not an ending i really want to see.

The bit where they dropped Sabretooth out of the ship in X-men the other week was good though, eh? Like that. Nice one Cable.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:39 pm

KingMob wrote:Eh, it's a bit rubbish but not entirely pointless. It changes the status quo of...well, nearly everyone? Whether those changes are good or not...
Plus generated new readers and put some political allegory out there in Fight!Punch! comics, I suppose.

Yeah, but surely that [heavy handed] political allegory has been integral to the basic concept of X-Men since the start? Whether played upon or not. Whilst it may not be a part of [Marvel] comics in general, it's hardly a revolutionary thang...

And I bet it'll all be rendered null and void a year from now.

That said, Ellis' Thunderbolts is rather ace, innit?

Post by **Best First** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:40 pm

i think overall the thing that did it for me:

What is the moral exactly?

That eventually your beliefs in personal freedom and responsibility will be steamrollered by the state, apathy, press manipulation, political polarisation, short termism and the death of ideology to self appointed 'pragmatists'? In a funky robot suit?

Potentially true, but, well the way it all played out despite his 'out of time' status i don't think Caps that naive or stupid to suddenly have his realistaion mid issue 7 climax. The juxtaposition of 'real world politics' and capes was not a comfortable or, in the end, a particularly well executed one - maybe in part because things as bad as Stamford have happened in the MU before (i think) and its all been forgotten in a few issues so the shift to 'this is how people would really react' seems out of synch with how things have been.

And i'm noty even sure i buy Cap's realisation - just cos the common man doesn't see it doesn't mean he isn't right about super heros just being turned into Government stooges. farnkly the bit where he gets jumped on by ambulance drivers and stuff was kind of an anti version of when Megs got hit with Firetrucks in DW v1 issue 6 - just a bit 'ugh, please'.

Also notable - what was Cap's plan if they 'won'? As much as i prefferred the heroes and the general ethic of the anti-reg side what were they fighting toward?

or something. Brain dump alert.

Its slightly different to the Mutant Registration act though, in that i don't think the regs act meant that everyone had to become a super cop (did it?).

Overall i want to like Civil War more than i do. Bummer man.

Ace art though.

But yes, Thunderbolts is good - poor Jack Flag, eh?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:20 pm

KingMob wrote:Eh, it's a bit rubbish but not entirely pointless. It changes the status quo of...well, nearly everyone? Whether those changes are good or not...

It changes the status quo, yes, but the status quo is really no more different at the end of #7 as it was when they first passed the act in #2 or whenever it was. It makes CW boil down to, "They passed the SHRA, some people fought against it, but then they gave up. A few went underground and Cap went to prison. The End."

I can't remember, did Doc Strange hint at how he thought staying out of things was a mistake when the Watcher came to see him in CW #6? I expect we'll get his reasons for joing the New Avengers...in New Avengers.

IIRC, he says something to the effect of that neither side is right or wrong, it's just a matter of perspective. So basically, whatever will be will be.

I'm more curious as to why Cap stalwarts like Falcon and Hercules didn't join the NA's. One or both of them would make more in-universe sense than Wolverine, who's only on the team for real world $$$.

Amazing Spidey was an exercise in not really saying anything about anything and then ooops old lady shot go ambulance now.

Agreed and agreed.

Best Marvel comics this week for me were Immortal Iron Fist (but of course I'm a whore for this book) and Punisher War Journal, which was ******* hilarious.

I don't think I had a good Marvel book this week, but 52 and Brave and Bold pwned.

Best First wrote: Thing that really got me was the worlds most superest tactician EVA! who cares loads about human life and freedom decides to stage a battle in... the middle of one of the Wolrds largest cities.

Well, the impression they tried to give is that they were trying to get to the Baxter Building or something, but SHIELD blocked the gates and they were forced to use Cloak as an absolute last resort. Of course, that doesn't explain why Namor is waiting around the corner to help out when they do. And of course, when I say help out, I mean "take up a few panels before Clor and his calvalry show up"

I don't think Tony came off as a great hero though - more of a smug asswipe.

Ditto for Reed. His letter to Sue came off like, "Well, looks like I was right about everything. Nyah-Nyah-nyah! Won't you please come back to me? Remember that bullet I took for you?"

Post by **Best First** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:33 pm

"Susan, you know its hard for me to slow my brain down enough to write coherent sentances, but in this case i think its important to try: I WAS RIIIIIIIIGHT! - now lick me balls pet".

Yes.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 am

Brendocon wrote:
KingMob wrote:Eh, it's a bit rubbish but not entirely pointless. It changes the status quo of...well, nearly everyone? Whether those changes are good or not...
Plus generated new readers and put some political allegory out there in Fight!Punch! comics, I suppose.
Yeah, but surely that [heavy handed] political allegory has been integral to the basic concept of X-Men since the start? Whether played upon or not. Whilst it may not be a part of [Marvel] comics in general, it's hardly a revolutionary thang...

Oh for sure, although yeah, I guess there is a slight difference between . It's just been more real-world effective on the readers; I've for damn sure (and so I figure you guys have as well) seen X-Men comic readers completely miss the point on numerous occasions, and with this one it was kinda impossible to get away from...muddled and occasionally nonsensical as it was.

I'm not enthusiastic about defending CW at all as...one can't really. At least not beyond the initial stages. It just stops making sense.

I guess I'm interested in the general effect Enron Man getting everything his way is going to have on other books. Yeah, Thunderbolts is an interesting example for specifics (plus ya gotta feel for Jack Flag, and Norman pitching a fit at hearing "Scarlet Spider" was great) and for a more general thing, the increased difficulties it adds to Iron Fist's life in his solo book really add to the atmosphere and tone of the story.

So yeah, agree #7 didn't change much, beyond some specific characters, but as a whole I don't really feel like being too down on CW despite #7 not being that much cop.

Although saying that - did you guys pick up CW: the Return?
What a bag of wank.

edit: interview with T-Voort here aboout CW that is worth a read:
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102414
A little much of the old 'explaining on the internets instead of in the bloody comic' though.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:53 pm

Oh yeah, that was TOTAL wank.

It's like, "We've GOT to bring back Captain Marvel for absolutely no reason. We've got SO many new story ideas for him, we can't even fill a normal 22 page comic!"

An example of the "explaining on the Internets" that's going on in that article

NRAMA: Again, for those perhaps not catching all the side stories - why did Namor join with cap's side? Last time we saw him in #6, he was pretty down on the idea...at the very least not implying that he’d be coming in with an army…

TB: Cap asked him, simple as that. He may have been petulant about it, he may have hemmed and hawed and claimed that he wasn’t going to do it, but at the end of the day, Captain America has been Namor’s friend and ally since World War Two. Everything Namor tells Sue in #6 is essentially true, but nevertheless, when Cap calls for help, Namor comes.

IN #6!!!!! LAST ISSUE!

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:02 pm

Shanti418 wrote:"We've GOT to bring back Captain Marvel for absolutely no reason. We've got SO many new story ideas for him, we can't even fill a normal 22 page comic!"

"And on the top of that, we need to bring back the one who's indisputably less cool."

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:39 pm

I finally gots it.... do I need to say Spoilers?

I didn't mind the ending so much, though it was pretty lame that the fans are expected to come up with their own explanations for the fight in the middle of New York & etc... this interview actually pisses me off more than the issue. The explanations should be out there in the story. Novels don't come shrinkwrapped with the author to explain plot points (although come to think of it, that would have helped Robert Jordan's novels).

Basically it would have been a better story if it wasn't so obvious that certain things happened offscreen. The ending was a little hackneyed and heavy-handed, but most of the story has been transparently allegorical, so what else did you expect?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:16 pm

I support a return to Jurassic values. Especially if it means wearing a smoking jacket and supping champagne.

Boom.

Though in much more important news, I have today finished reading Preacher. That was wonderful.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:04 pm

you must have either a more enlightened library or wallet than I.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:34 pm

I have a relaxed approach to spending.

In so much as if I don't look at my bank statement, it's not real.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:25 am

Rocket Raccoon is coming back!

http://www.newsarama.com/NYCC/2007/Marv ... ARLORD.jpg

oh and the Transformer/New Avenger thing is really happening.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102772

Huh. I know I'm going to pick that up and am a little sad about it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:50 pm

KingMob wrote:Rocket Raccoon is coming back!

Yay!

oh and the Transformer/New Avenger thing is really happening.

Boo!

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:42 pm

Clor sounds like a naughty part.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:34 am

KingMob wrote:
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=102772

Huh. I know I'm going to pick that up and am a little sad about it.

Yes.

****'s sake.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:39 pm

They use the word "widescreen" a lot for an article about a print medium.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:13 pm

"I thought it'd be fun to team the Transformers with either the Avengers, or maybe The Simpsons (since they have a movie coming the same time as the Transformers movie)."

Okay, so it's not what was really said, but it'd be just as 'fun'.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:23 pm

I just read T-Bolts 110 & 111. Holeee shock.

What really amazed me about these two issues was the fact that Mike Deodato's artwork, which normally drives me insane, looked pretty decent.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:19 am

He definitely tuned down the Tommy Lee Jones/Norman Osborn stuff on #111. That was nice.

Blacksword · Post by **Blacksword** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:33 pm

Having never bothered with Civil War, or most mainstream Marvel comics (save for DD) I don't have much to say about any of that. But I'll throw my groan into the collective for the TF/Avengers book... though like most suckers I'll at least consider checking out. Though that might simply entail flipping through it in the store.

On a positive note, I've finally gotten around to reading V for Vendetta, which I enjoyed immensely. Quite brilliant, and despite all the hype I've heard about it, I wasn't disappointed. Though I have doubts that I'll ever go out of my way to see the movie, given the criticism of Alan Moore and others (mainly I happen to agree with the point that the anarchist-terrorist concept is rather key to V's character, remove that and I can't see the ideological basis of the story holding up). Any opinions here about the movie adaptation?

Oh and on the subject of anarchism, (and I'm sure people have noticed this before) I wonder if anyone at Marvel realized that an A in a circle stands for Anarchy, as much as it does for Avengers.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:43 pm

I enjoyed the movie. It's different enough from the source material to justify existing, but at the same time similar enough that they haven't raped the concept.

Obviously they've overhauled the political aspects to make it more relevant to today's climate, but they've stopped well short of the "let's make a film with the same title as a comic" approach applied to League of EG.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:58 am

So...Captain America 25...

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:11 am

Professor Smooth wrote:So...Captain America 25...

Haven't digested it properly yet, but it was an exciting first read; Brubaker can certainly set up tension and payoff.

However, the Faustus subplot only really got introduced 3 issues ago and this is it playing out? Bru's plots are usually intricate and play out much slower, and I haven't read the last 5 issues of Cap in one sitting again yet - I suspect the CW-related story implant of this issue will be much more apparent then.

As an example of Bru's awesome storytelling skills not connected to franchises and crossovers, Criminal #5 was the best of the week for me.
That was just taught, amazing stuff. Fantastic ending to the arc. Brubaker and Phillips are just blowing everything else away on that book, in terms of crafterly storytelling and characterisation. Can't wait to read them all in one-sitting, I just know it's going to rule.

Phonogram was better than last ish...i really want to like this series a lot, but, um I think I would appreciate it more if I had lived down south during Britpop. Straight up, a weird thing to say I know, but despite Britpop being a national cultural wave, there seems to have been a slightly different, much more powerful feeling associated with it, in the view of this story anyway, to my lovely southern cousins. I think. I'm probably talking out my arse. Again. Apols.

I would love to know how this comic feels to people from different countries who know the music/were steeped in the culture of the time.
It's still aces, of course. Well written, fantastic art.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:28 pm

re: cap 25, i thought it was rather swish, very artfully done. I also think that Sharon's memory is a fake to cover for someone esle's actions.

I'm interested to see where Marvel go with this. Some of the responses on Newsarama are hilarilous in their over reaction - in most cases seemingly from people who have yet to read the issue wen i was looking last night.

Anyone read Frontline 11 - wasn't really sure what to make of it. Not so much the central conceit, as the reporters, especially Urich's reaction to it - surely no matter what your intentions what Stark did was wrong? He's given up and is only playing a numbers game.

Looking forwad to sneaking more reads on the bog at work later...

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:05 pm

FL #11 - As a comic book, as a storyline, from the POV of someone reading all of CW with half of a brain, this book was utter wank.
BUT...from a functional perspective, if you want to try and get Tony Stark out of CW with as much of his heroism intact, this was the way to go. Yeah, he almost instigated a war to drum up SHRA support, but in terms of things that buisnessmen do to get their way, that sadly would be par for the course here in real life. Tony Stark is a one man military industrial complex, no? I still think he's a dick, and I still think that was a crappy payoff considering how much a "traitor" has been teased throughout the Atlantis/Norman Osborn arcs, though.

Cap #25 - I went into that book expecting the worst in a way, knowing it was already a Robbie Baldwin type shooting, and that inevitably, he will be back. However, this opinion was tempered by the fact that I have had some sips of King Mob's Kool Aid, and now I too am of the opinion that Bru is the absolute frigging man, natch.

So yeah, the book completly rocked hardcore. And by hardcore I mean showing penetration. Art, dialogue, pace, could not have been more spot on. I mean, with all the stuff that happened in that issue, if Bendis would have been writing it, we would have been looking at 6 issues. There was not a better bang for your buck this week. I love Cap's death really charging the New/Mighty Avengers dynamic. I love the New Avengers looking at Tony as effectively Cap's killer. And I'm going to LOVE hating on Tony when, as has been hinted at, he's going to take posession of Cap's shield and perhaps either use it himself or bestow it upon some NEW Captain America, like Azrael when Batman broke his back. That's going to REALLY piss some people off, me included. But I've learned to love my hate of Iron Man.

Not loving to the point of buying Mighty Avengers, though. Everyone says it's good, but I really don't like IM, Ms. Marvel, Wonder Man, or Sentry at all, and I'm pretty apathetic towards Wasp, Black Widow, and Ares.

Also this week, 52 was awesome because of the bad ass death of Isis and Black Adam ripping the Horsemen of the Apocalypse a new one. We're firing towards World War 3, and Countdown is going to be AWESOME after that. I'm a Marvel Zombie, but they have me at "return of the multiverse". There's nothing I like more than Elseworlds and alternate timelines mixing it up.

Incredible Hulk was awesome as well, whereinHulk saves a world, gets a girl pregnant, and cracks a big ol' goofy smile all in time for the Earth ship that brought him to the planet to have a warp core breach and incinerate everyone and everything on the planet he's loved and created Hulk is smashing towards "Hulk Smash".

This week's FNSM, also good. I'm going to trade wait Marvel Zombies/Army of Darkness. Read about half of the TF:TM prequel, but that's neither here nor there, although quickly to the point: Good standard TF origin, I just don't know who this guy is that's playing Megatron.

The Faustius plot just showed up in the CW tie in, but the Red Skull one has been building up for awhile, no? Faustius was just a recent manifestation of it exposed to the reader.

Post by **Best First** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:28 pm

Shanti418 wrote:. But I've learned to love my hate of Iron Man.

me too.

edit - pretty good interview re: Cap here;

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... gi?id=9914

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:14 am

Shanti418 wrote:The Faustius plot just showed up in the CW tie in, but the Red Skull one has been building up for awhile, no? Faustius was just a recent manifestation of it exposed to the reader.

Oh yeah, the Skull's been messing with Cap since issue 1. I love Bru's long-term plotting, and how it all comes together, there's no real sense of WTF? in his plots. The Winter Soldier storyline was completely convincing, and I am loving the hell out of having Bucky back. He's awesome - and how cool was it when Falcon flew him up after the chopper and he was popping off with dual pistols at it?
I just had one of those weird reactions, when you're that used to the villians having these labyrinthine plots that never quite work, the simple fact of the Skull just skillfully orchestrating things so that someone would be close enough to Cap to just put 3 in his chest and call it job done gave me pause.
It feels slightly rushed; used to important things like Faustus being trailed and hinted at and being a revelation in themselves, not just a story mechanic that can be used to kill off Cap 3 issues later.

It was still awesomesauce though, and I also totally agree with your comments on Frontline 11 and how cool it is to see Spider-Woman consider Tony to be responsible for Cap's death.

Mighty Avengers was fun, but I won't be back for another ish. I picked it up mainly to see how Bendis reintroduced thought balloons, and wasn't disappointed. But like you say, I could care less for the characters, really.
The Widow isn't cool when she's an Avenger.
The New Avengers team (and artist) are just fundamentally more interesting.

Post by **Best First** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:40 am

I agree New Avenagers is more interesting, but i think i'll give Mighty a wirl for a while, it put a smile on my face and that's enought for me - plus i'm intrigued as to how Ares will pan out.

And the thought bubble stuff is good fun.

Did anyone read the latets issue of FF? I've only read the lead story so far but i i tyhought it was a reaslly good CW bookend for the team and nicely doubled as a 45th anniversary issue - good stuff.

Oh, and Runways was amazing - that last page - amazing. What a ride.

Feel the love.