I like comics, How 'bout you?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:12 am

Lately, I just haven't been able to muster the same enthusiasm for comics that I once had. I still read, but I'm generally happy to wait for the trades to arrive at my parents' place, read them in a day or two during a vacation, and then hand 'em off to my friends or cousins or what-have-you.

I kind of hoped it was just a symptom of getting older. Like, "finally, I don't feel the urge to spend considerable time on little colored pamphlets." But that's not it. So, I gave it a good long think, and here's what I came up with.

Marvel (and, I guess, DC) have gotten to a point where, to get across just how deadly whichever new threat is, they just pile up a huge body count. And that turns me off for more than just the "lazy writing," aspect.

The whole point of super heroes is that they save not just the day, but people. For years (decades) death had a massive impact on the characters. Look at Spider-Man. There, what, like 2 actual murders in the book from the 60's through the 90's. Sure, you'd have the occasional heart-attack death or villain falling into one of his own traps, but you didn't have a double-or-triple digit body count at the end of each story arc.

So, when I see New York laid to waste (still kind of a sensitive subject for me, even ten years after seeing the real thing) at the end of Civil War, Secret Invasion, Spider-Island, Fear Itself, etc, and the heroes "looking tired, but triumphant," it seems hollow to me.

Yay! We won! We saved everybody! Well, except for the thousands and thousands of people who died. Yeah, we didn't do much for all those women and children that the Grey Gargoyle smashed to pieces in Paris. But there are a lot of people who DIDN'T die!

And I get it, with the levels of super powers we're used to seeing, it may seem like it'd be difficult to suspend disbelief that nobody died. Well, I call bull**** on that. I can suspend belief enough to accept (for 20 years) a guy with spider-powers who teams up with guys made of, respectively, air, fire, rock, and elastic. I can suspend disbelief enough to accept a 200 year-old metal-boned Canadian who can heal nearly instantaneously after having an atomic bomb go off in his face. I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that apparently all of the members of every pantheon of deities from Roman to Norse to Hindu to Lovecraftian openly walk the Earth while Atheists still exist and "God Hates Mutants."

So, I'm FINE with suspending my disbelief that literal GODS can engage in all-out war without a WWII death toll.

Marvel, DC... I've been buying, reading, and collecting comic books since they cost 1.25. 20 years. In that time, the cost of comic books had more than tripled. As has the investment. I can't only read Amazing Spider-Man. If I want to keep current on that title, I have to commit to buying at least one major crossover event every year. While the costs have tripled, the word count seems to have dropped by more than half. It used to take 10-15 minutes to read a comic book. Now, most take less than five.

That's five minutes of entertainment for $3.99. $1.25 per minute. I can't think of any single form of entertainment that costs more than that.

And that $3.99 doesn't buy anything resembling a complete story. Every story is now spread out over (on average) six months. A single story, then, winds up costing $24. That's more than two 3-D movies.

And I, like Futurama's Fry, was totally fine with that. Shut up and take my money!

But, if I pay that much, go through that much to read about Spider-Man or the Avengers or the Fantastic Four, at the end of each $24 storyline, or $100 cross-over, I don't want these super HEROES to consider leveled cities and fields of graves to be "acceptable losses."

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:56 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Lately, I just haven't been able to muster the same enthusiasm for comics that I once had. I still read, but I'm generally happy to wait for the trades to arrive at my parents' place, read them in a day or two during a vacation, and then hand 'em off to my friends or cousins or what-have-you.

I kind of hoped it was just a symptom of getting older. Like, "finally, I don't feel the urge to spend considerable time on little colored pamphlets." But that's not it. So, I gave it a good long think, and here's what I came up with.

Marvel (and, I guess, DC) have gotten to a point where, to get across just how deadly whichever new threat is, they just pile up a huge body count. And that turns me off for more than just the "lazy writing," aspect.

The whole point of super heroes is that they save not just the day, but people. For years (decades) death had a massive impact on the characters. Look at Spider-Man. There, what, like 2 actual murders in the book from the 60's through the 90's. Sure, you'd have the occasional heart-attack death or villain falling into one of his own traps, but you didn't have a double-or-triple digit body count at the end of each story arc.

So, when I see New York laid to waste (still kind of a sensitive subject for me, even ten years after seeing the real thing) at the end of Civil War, Secret Invasion, Spider-Island, Fear Itself, etc, and the heroes "looking tired, but triumphant," it seems hollow to me.

Yay! We won! We saved everybody! Well, except for the thousands and thousands of people who died. Yeah, we didn't do much for all those women and children that the Grey Gargoyle smashed to pieces in Paris. But there are a lot of people who DIDN'T die!

And I get it, with the levels of super powers we're used to seeing, it may seem like it'd be difficult to suspend disbelief that nobody died. Well, I call bull**** on that. I can suspend belief enough to accept (for 20 years) a guy with spider-powers who teams up with guys made of, respectively, air, fire, rock, and elastic. I can suspend disbelief enough to accept a 200 year-old metal-boned Canadian who can heal nearly instantaneously after having an atomic bomb go off in his face. I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that apparently all of the members of every pantheon of deities from Roman to Norse to Hindu to Lovecraftian openly walk the Earth while Atheists still exist and "God Hates Mutants."

So, I'm FINE with suspending my disbelief that literal GODS can engage in all-out war without a WWII death toll.

Marvel, DC... I've been buying, reading, and collecting comic books since they cost 1.25. 20 years. In that time, the cost of comic books had more than tripled. As has the investment. I can't only read Amazing Spider-Man. If I want to keep current on that title, I have to commit to buying at least one major crossover event every year. While the costs have tripled, the word count seems to have dropped by more than half. It used to take 10-15 minutes to read a comic book. Now, most take less than five.

That's five minutes of entertainment for $3.99. $1.25 per minute. I can't think of any single form of entertainment that costs more than that.

And that $3.99 doesn't buy anything resembling a complete story. Every story is now spread out over (on average) six months. A single story, then, winds up costing $24. That's more than two 3-D movies.

And I, like Futurama's Fry, was totally fine with that. Shut up and take my money!

But, if I pay that much, go through that much to read about Spider-Man or the Avengers or the Fantastic Four, at the end of each $24 storyline, or $100 cross-over, I don't want these super HEROES to consider leveled cities and fields of graves to be "acceptable losses."

Word.

This must go to the entire Internet!

DJ_Convoy · Post by **DJ_Convoy** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:39 pm

Couldn't have put it any better.

I'm always going to love comics. But the state of things today just leave me a little bit perplexed and sad.

My pull list has never been smaller. For either Marvel OR DC.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:29 pm

Totally.

For me, my lack of comic buying comes down to two main things:

1. $3.99. For all the reasons you stated. And as an added aside, the fact that digital comics are similarly priced pisses me off to no extent.

2. I felt like the big crossover stories became less about telling a good story and more about setting a table to sell future comic books.

I'm back on the TF wagon, and I'll still buy non-superhero stuff in trades, but outside of TF, I'm not sure I'll ever buy a paper monthly again.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:17 pm

I had a work-at-home day yesterday. Since my work was finished by about 10:30, I decided to give one of the iPod comic apps a try. So, I read Fantastic Four 601.

Normal issue. Not a part of any big, universe altering cross-over (although Iron Man and Captain America are there).

And yet, we've got space craft falling from the sky and blowing up what look to be entire city blocks (of New York, obviously).

To make things even MORE uncomfortable, at the same time however many thousands of people are suffering violent, flaming death due to superhero/alien war in the upper atmosphere... Johnny Storm is back!

"But...you died..."
"More than once, actually."

Well that's great. Are the kids in the nursery school on fifth avenue that just got atomized going to come back? No. So now we've got a shining example of superheroes failing to save countless lives (on what amounts to some random Tuesday in the Marvel Universe) while flat-out saying that death holds very little personal meaning for them.

Half the Annihilation Wave falls on a summer camp: Oh, no! We have to do something soon, or else MORE people will die!

Thor dies: Another $3.99 book to buy that pays tribute to a fallen hero... leading to another cross-over where, surprise, surprise...Thor's back.

The grim-n-gritty early 90's books that parodied superheroes didn't cause this much property damage/loss of life. There looks to have been more damage inflicted on the Marvel Universe in the last few years than in the entire run of The Authority.

And yeah. $2.99/3.99 for a digital copy of a 20 page pamphlet. No, Marvel and DC. Don't do me any favors, now.

Quick idea. Let me pre-pay 24.99 for the trade...and then give me the digital copies (day and date) for free. There. Did I just solve your problem, Marvel? Did I just solve ALL of your problems?

Post by **snarl** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:48 pm

issue 63 of The Boys.

Crikey.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:16 pm

Professor Smooth wrote:Quick idea. Let me pre-pay 24.99 for the trade...and then give me the digital copies (day and date) for free. There. Did I just solve your problem, Marvel? Did I just solve ALL of your problems?

TOTALLY. I've been saying that ever since digital comics came up. Give me a deal where I can get digital monthlies and a physical TPB, and I'll do it. It seems like the problem would be distribution. Either you're:

Getting digital comics and then having a TPB mailed to you, in which case you'd most likely need to be buying digital directly from the publisher, not a digital distributor.

Paying for it up front at your LCS, and then they give you some sort of redeemable code for your digital comics. But that will just hurt their sales in the long run. They don't want to encourage people to give up paper monthlies, I'd imagine.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:10 am

Oh, FFS. Has anybody been to Newsarama lately? What's with all "top ten" articles making you click "next" after half a paragraph? Really, Newsarama? You could fit your Watchmen article on a single PRINTED page, but I have to click TEN TIMES to read the whole article?

I get that it's probably to add page views in order to up their ad revenue, but is this really the best they could come up with?

Post by **snarl** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:03 pm

The Boys issue 65.

[composite word including 'f*ck'] my arse.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:21 am

snarl wrote:The Boys issue 65.

**** my arse.

Mine as well. Wow.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:15 pm

Yup.

Clever use of pre-conceptions there.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:12 am

A vs X is pretty good.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:02 am

AvX is shaping up to be good fun.

Uncanny Xforce is STILL awesome.
Read my FB post concering my questions about Iceman.

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Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed May 02, 2012 9:24 pm

Been looking back over the past 6-7 years worth of Marvel stuff, looking to pick up some of the stuff I missed because it was too expensive/complicated to follow.

The most recent stuff I've got is Morrison's New X-Men, Whedon's Astonishing run, Ellis' Thunderbolts, and Bendis' Alias/Pulse.

I think, in order to get up to speed and understand/appreciate the whole picture, fitting around what I've already got, I need to do:

Bendis' Daredevil
Secret War
Avengers Disassembled
House of M (127 volumes)
Decimation (27 volumes)
Deadly Genesis
Endangered Species
Messiah Complex
New Avengers
Civil War (332 volumes)
Mighty Avengers
Secret Invasion
Dark Avengers

Yeah?

[composite word including 'f*ck'] that. I'm just going to buy the Age of Apocalypse collections instead.

If anybody wants to correct/confirm/chop out inessentials/highlight what I actually should get out of that lot, it'd be helpful.

DJ_Convoy · Post by **DJ_Convoy** » Wed May 02, 2012 9:32 pm

Well, to me, everything you've listed there is what's been wrong with Marvel for the past 7 or 8 years. I missed an issue of Bendis' Daredevil and DIDN'T NOTICE. I gave up on the book shortly thereafter. Deadly Genesis convinced me to finally drop the X-Books after reading since the 80's, etc.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed May 02, 2012 9:42 pm

Encouraging.

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 am

Age of apocalypse is pretty good, and was a spin from Uncanny Xforce (freakin give it a chance)

AvX is just fun, and the Avengers vs Xmen blow by blow sidebar comic is pretty nifty.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed May 09, 2012 5:11 pm

How can Age of Apocalypse be a spin off from Uncanny X-Force?

I meant the 90s tpb.

And why wouldn't I give Uncanny X-Force a chance?

Optimus Prime Rib · Post by **Optimus Prime Rib** » Thu May 10, 2012 12:59 pm

Because you are evil?

The current AoA sparks from an Uncanny Xforce story arc is what I meant.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sun May 13, 2012 8:57 pm

I appear to have just bought the first 80 issues of X-Factor.

Oh well. I've only ever read selected issues in trades like Phoenix Rising, Mutant Massacre, Inferno, etc. So that'll be nice to get the whole picture on it.

Incidentally - I have also ended up with two copies of the TPB of the first Wolverine mini. By the time Amazon have deducted the postage cost of me sending it back it's barely worth the effort. Do any of you monkeys want it?

bumblemusprime · Post by **bumblemusprime** » Sun May 13, 2012 10:50 pm

Post by **Best First** » Mon May 14, 2012 1:58 pm

B-unit.

I'd say you 'only' need;

Avengers Disassembled
House of M main volume
Messiah Complex
Civil War - main volume
Secret Invasion
Dark Reign - The List
X-Men/Dark Avengers - Utopia
Siege
-

if i were going for actual series collections i'd plump for New and Dark Avengers as they were pretty much the spine of Universe events

You can skip deadly genesis - i did for years and most of Decimation you get the gist from the end of House of M and Messiah Complex/War/Other one (you can skip war actually)

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon May 14, 2012 5:39 pm

Cheers Besteroony. My reading's always been fairly X-driven, but I'm willing to go a little bit Avengers for those titles given the importance of Norman Oz to recent events.

Post by **Best First** » Wed May 16, 2012 2:23 pm

Yes i have traditionally been more X-oriented but have drifted the Aveengers way since dissasembled.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed May 16, 2012 3:25 pm

It is only now that I realise the potential in the term "X-centric"

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 17, 2012 10:58 am

yes and that X-oriented makes me sound bisexual.

Post by **snarl** » Wed May 23, 2012 9:20 am

So I read the boys 66...

Billy's going to kill all his team mates isn't he?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Wed May 23, 2012 6:04 pm

I need to keep away from eBay

X-Men (vol 2) #151-200 (plus the two Black Panther crossover issues), £40. Delivered. Individually bagged and boarded. Days of readage.

I am win.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu May 24, 2012 6:57 am

The ending of Irredeemable blew my mind into another universe.

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I like comics, How 'bout you?

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