I like comics, How 'bout you?

The Last Autobot · Post by **The Last Autobot** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:53 pm

Yaya wrote:
1. Manga, here I come. Going to give it a try. I hear some of the best and most memorable stories come from manga. I hope to find them.

One of the main advantages with Manga over comics is that you can get a closure of the stories and characters (most of the time). So you dont follow -for instance- Spider Man 40 years again and again with story after story. Any given story starts, develops and finally its over.

And also that just one **** writer does it all, so you can have more coherence in the plots and a sense of things to come (because mainly one guy does it all). Its not like in american comics that If you get every apperance of Xavier its like he is really 24 different people depending on whom wrote the story. And in crossovers with 10 writers in 20 series putting things together things get very convoluted.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:50 am

The Last Autobot wrote:
Yaya wrote:
1. Manga, here I come. Going to give it a try. I hear some of the best and most memorable stories come from manga. I hope to find them.

One of the main advantages with Manga over comics is that you can get a closure of the stories and characters (most of the time). So you dont follow -for instance- Spider Man 40 years again and again with story after story. Any given story starts, develops and finally its over.

And also that just one **** writer does it all, so you can have more coherence in the plots and a sense of things to come (because mainly one guy does it all). Its not like in american comics that If you get every apperance of Xavier its like he is really 24 different people depending on whom wrote the story. And in crossovers with 10 writers in 20 series putting things together things get very convoluted.

Y'know.

That's true. Makes me more excited about the potential of manga.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:02 am

I waited so long to see Fray again... and I didn't get the ending, despite a setup for the greatest fight ever, and

SPOILER

Buffy Killing Willow.

Still don't get it. Time paradox? Flummoxexed? I feel paradoxed. Right in my dox.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:34 pm

Best thing to come out of Secret Invasion? The three Blank Panther issues of it. Just read them. Awesome stuff.

Also reading Brubaker's run on Daredevil. This man can write. Easily makes Bendis his bitch.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:26 pm

sprunkner wrote:I waited so long to see Fray again... and I didn't get the ending, despite a setup for the greatest fight ever, and

SPOILER

Buffy Killing Willow.

Still don't get it. Time paradox? Flummoxexed? I feel paradoxed. Right in my dox.

My Responsey wrote:What don't you get? Willow lives forever, but powerless, nobody's good enough to kill her, so brings her best friend back from the past in order to do the job.

Hence the "it's who kills you" line.

I was more confused by why Andrew was wearing Angel's tank-top, and why he was with the bad guys. Apparantly it was meant to be Riley. Which makes more sense...

Re: Yaya's ludicrous assertions about Bendis being an overrated hack.

You've got to ask the question of whose story he's actually telling. Is it his story and structure, or is he just the de facto dialogue writer for what Joe Q wants published?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:28 pm

Brendocon wrote: Re: Yaya's ludicrous assertions about Bendis being an overrated hack.

You've got to ask the question of whose story he's actually telling. Is it his story and structure, or is he just the de facto dialogue writer for what Joe Q wants published?

Bendis put his name on it, didn't he?

That's enough for me.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:34 pm

Is it a story or a script credit though?

How much passing trade would want to read it were it credited to Joe Quesada?

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:36 pm

Either way, I don't respect writers that put their name on something not of their own.

You drop your John Hancock, you take the heat.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:41 pm

Another example of kickass writing? Just read the last five issues of Millar's Fantastic Four. As good as Marvel comics can get, IMO.

Add to it Hitch's work, and I think, overall, Fantastic Four has to be the best title out of Marvel.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:32 am

I read a few issues of Amazing Spider-Man at a bar (yay Japan!). This series has gotten so bad that it almost makes me sad. I read Spider-Man continuously for about 15 years. I was there from the introduction of Carnage through the end of Civil War. But these new stories are terrible. They are an attempt to copy the mid-70's Spider-Man books, but it just doesn't work. None of the characters act like themselves.

Remember all the times Transformers fans have said, "You're killing the franchise!" every time Hasbro did something we didn't like (at the time)? Beast Wars, Beast Machines, RiD, movie, etc? I never thought that Spider-Man comics would get so bad that I'd have to feel the same way.

Spidey used to be, by far, Marvel's number one guy. The X-Men sold more books, but that's a whole team of fan-favorites. The first two Spider-Man movies made huge bank and scored giant publicity for the character, but none of that translated into comic book sales, and a lot of the profit went to the studio. Now, Marvel's making their own movies and doing a pretty good job of it. Iron Man was huge, Hulk did alright, and it looks like the future's pretty bright for Thor, Captain America, and The Avengers. These are movies that Marvel gets a huge part of the profits from. Spider-Man 3 was panned by everyone and the DVD died on the vine. More than ever before, the Spider-Man comics are not untouchable. Likely, there will always be an ongoing Spider-Man book, but that's no longer a given. If sales drop far enough, it's not inconceivable that Marvel could do something like dropping ASM back to a monthly without all the auxiliary titles. Or worse, canceling all the books in favor of a Spider-Man and the New Avengers title.

I want to like the character. My interest in the book is not just to have something to complain about. I'll even pay the obscene 3.99 cover price for 5 minutes of entertainment. But make it entertaining. This, Marvel, is the one time the internet is right in panning (or ignoring) the book.

"I'm J. Jonah Jameson. Senior." Seriously? SERIOUSLY?!?!

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:50 am

Professor Smooth wrote:I read a few issues of Amazing Spider-Man at a bar (yay Japan!). This series has gotten so bad that it almost makes me sad. I read Spider-Man continuously for about 15 years. I was there from the introduction of Carnage through the end of Civil War. But these new stories are terrible. They are an attempt to copy the mid-70's Spider-Man books, but it just doesn't work. None of the characters act like themselves.

Remember all the times Transformers fans have said, "You're killing the franchise!" every time Hasbro did something we didn't like (at the time)? Beast Wars, Beast Machines, RiD, movie, etc? I never thought that Spider-Man comics would get so bad that I'd have to feel the same way.

Spidey used to be, by far, Marvel's number one guy. The X-Men sold more books, but that's a whole team of fan-favorites. The first two Spider-Man movies made huge bank and scored giant publicity for the character, but none of that translated into comic book sales, and a lot of the profit went to the studio. Now, Marvel's making their own movies and doing a pretty good job of it. Iron Man was huge, Hulk did alright, and it looks like the future's pretty bright for Thor, Captain America, and The Avengers. These are movies that Marvel gets a huge part of the profits from. Spider-Man 3 was panned by everyone and the DVD died on the vine. More than ever before, the Spider-Man comics are not untouchable. Likely, there will always be an ongoing Spider-Man book, but that's no longer a given. If sales drop far enough, it's not inconceivable that Marvel could do something like dropping ASM back to a monthly without all the auxiliary titles. Or worse, canceling all the books in favor of a Spider-Man and the New Avengers title.

I want to like the character. My interest in the book is not just to have something to complain about. I'll even pay the obscene 3.99 cover price for 5 minutes of entertainment. But make it entertaining. This, Marvel, is the one time the internet is right in panning (or ignoring) the book.

"I'm J. Jonah Jameson. Senior." Seriously? SERIOUSLY?!?!

Who's writing ASM?

The answer to your ills is Brubaker, me thinks. Give him a chance, see what he can do with the title.

Spiderman will always be too iconic to brush aside. Hell, the guy was on the Electric Company, for God's sake (any one remember that show in the early 70's, followed Sesame Street, starred Morgan Freeman? No? Damn, I'm old..).

Likely, this lull is a the normal cyclical lull every icon goes through.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:05 am

I say Matt Fraction and Robert Aguirre-Sacas, since they were both able to handle the marriage.

Spider-Man has been turned into such a little bitch in BND. I tried to give it a chance, but his character was so loathsome.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:03 pm

Yaya wrote:Either way, I don't respect writers that put their name on something not of their own.

You drop your John Hancock, you take the heat.

You understand the difference between script and story, right?

Which is the point I'm making, which you seem to be hellbent on missing.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:25 pm

Brendocon wrote:
Yaya wrote:Either way, I don't respect writers that put their name on something not of their own.

You drop your John Hancock, you take the heat.
You understand the difference between script and story, right?

Which is the point I'm making, which you seem to be hellbent on missing.

Elaborate then, please. What's the difference?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:35 pm

Does anybody know where the Wayne family fortune comes from?

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:07 pm

Cheese.

Post by **Best First** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:51 am

For the love of god is anyone else reading Marvel Zombies 3?

Its superb.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:37 pm

Best First wrote:For the love of god is anyone else reading Marvel Zombies 3?

Its superb.

Trade waitin'. I'm looking forward to it.

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:10 pm

Best First wrote:For the love of god is anyone else reading Marvel Zombies 3?

Its superb.

Do you have to have read 1 and 2?

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:55 am

No, but it helps.

Random DC Thing: I got back into comics around the time of Infinite Crisis. When 52 came out, I was like, OK cool, DC universe without the Trinity, wonder what that's like? Then later on there's Trinity, and it APPEARS to be all about the Trinity, but (even though it's a pretty good read), the Big Three exited stage left a while ago, and according to the March solicits still out, they're still somewhat on the sidelines at that point, and the way the story is turning out, it IS to a large extent about the concept of "Hmmm, I wonder what the DC universe without the Trinity would be like?"

And what's going on in the books right now? Superman is currently starting a story which is basically "What if there were a whole BUNCH of Supermen?", which will then be followed by a story called "World Without Superman". Batman has been quality from what I can tell (keep up with RIP by way of the Internet and shelf browsing), but it now is going into the story of Batman being gone. Wonder Woman doesn't really fit into the pattern, but it's frusterating nonetheless because personally, the only things I really care about in the DCU superhero wise ARE the Big Three, and DC keeps on pulling them on and off the stage.

Most of the other DC people, like Flash and Green Lantern, I just find the Marvel analogues more interesting than the straight up white knight take of Hal and Barry.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:58 am

Yaya wrote:
Best First wrote:For the love of god is anyone else reading Marvel Zombies 3?

Its superb.
Do you have to have read 1 and 2?

What he said - you could just gen up on Wiki or summit tho.

Liked Buffy's pragmatism. Not much agonising - just did it. Well slayed that man.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:16 pm

Yaya wrote:
Brendocon wrote:
Yaya wrote:Either way, I don't respect writers that put their name on something not of their own.

You drop your John Hancock, you take the heat.
You understand the difference between script and story, right?

Which is the point I'm making, which you seem to be hellbent on missing.
Elaborate then, please. What's the difference?

Right, say I'm editor at Marvel. I want certain things to happen, I want the general shape of the universe to be changed. I want Tony Stark vilified, I want Norman Osborn running things, I want TEH EPIC story where everybody is fighting Skrulls and a major character dies - but nobody too important, maybe an Avenger who's not really done anything for ages and that none of the other writers have asked to use in the immediate future.

I say "right, we're going to tell this story. I'm going to get Brian Yaya Benwav to actually write it, as he's the best writer on staff. But these things have to happen in order for the universe to end up where I want it. So, issue 1 will have this happen, issue 2 will have that happen, issue 5 has to have this massive cliffhanger, then issue 6 wraps it up and springboards back into everybody's ongoing."

You then have to go away and actually write the issues. But your creative input is minimal, your hands are tied in regards to the events and the structure. Basically you're in charge of describing the scene for an artist and writing the dialogue.

But, if it turns out to suck, it's your fault.

It's like when a tv episode has a credit of "story by X; teleplay by Y". It's where one person comes up with the actual idea, then a proper writer is given the job of turning it into a script. Oftentimes completely hamstrung by the original idea being bobbins.

So I return to the original point: Is Secret Invasion Bendis' story, or has he just been given the job of writing it based on Joe Quesada's "visionary masterplan" of where the Marvel Universe needs to go?

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:26 pm

It doesn't always work that way (I'd even say it usually doesn't work that way). According to interviews (and I have no reason not to trust them) Secret Invasion was Bendis' idea and he even started to seed first clues in New Avengers before anybody else knew (OK, this I don't entirely believe). Then he pitched the whole idea (along with Dark Reign) to the editors and when they accepted, the other writers got together, threw in their own ideas, discussed various things to make the whole thing as much coherent as it is possible (like who is Skrull and who's not) and decided what happens next.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:43 pm

Ozz wrote:It doesn't always work that way (I'd even say it usually doesn't work that way). According to interviews (and I have no reason not to trust them) Secret Invasion was Bendis' idea

Fair enough then.

Then he pitched the whole idea (along with Dark Reign) to the editors and when they accepted, the other writers got together, threw in their own ideas, discussed various things to make the whole thing as much coherent as it is possible (like who is Skrull and who's not) and decided what happens next.

I think too many contributory writers can still spoil the overall effect. I mean look how ace the relatively-standalone Ultimate Spider-Man is compared to the crossing-over-all-over-the-shop Rest of the Ultimate Universe.

Although we can just blame Jeph Loeb for that.

Can we blame Jeph Loeb for Secret Invasion?

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:22 am

Brendocon wrote:I think too many contributory writers can still spoil the overall effect. I mean look how ace the relatively-standalone Ultimate Spider-Man is compared to the crossing-over-all-over-the-shop Rest of the Ultimate Universe.

Actually Bendis admitted that he often wanted to use references to other stuff, but wouldn't want to spoil endings of other stories because there's always something late in that imprint (Ultimates, Ultimate Power...). But anyway, I don't understand how USM is more stand-alone than say, UFF. It's not like that book constantly crosses with others.

Brendocon wrote:Can we blame Jeph Loeb for Secret Invasion?

Well, he was at the meetings...

Yaya · Post by **Yaya** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:40 pm

Shanti418 wrote: Most of the other DC people, like Flash and Green Lantern, I just find the Marvel analogues more interesting than the straight up white knight take of Hal and Barry.

Marvel is just kicking the living **** out of D.C. right now, on pretty much all fronts.

They are just doing a much better job of acquiring talent, both writing and artistic. They aren't afraid to take chances and they respect their own history.

The only place where D.C. beat out Marvel was with The Dark Knight movie. And even then, if you add up Iron Man plus The Incredible Hulk, they probably brought themselves more dollars in the end.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:00 pm

Yaya wrote:
Shanti418 wrote: Most of the other DC people, like Flash and Green Lantern, I just find the Marvel analogues more interesting than the straight up white knight take of Hal and Barry.
Marvel is just kicking the living **** out of D.C. right now, on pretty much all fronts.

They are just doing a much better job of acquiring talent, both writing and artistic. They aren't afraid to take chances and they respect their own history.

The only place where D.C. beat out Marvel was with The Dark Knight movie. And even then, if you add up Iron Man plus The Incredible Hulk, they probably brought themselves more dollars in the end.

While Marvel's definitely top dog, I think Final Crisis is better than Secret Invasion, and I don't think DC has screwed over/up anybody in the Trinity as much as Marvel did Spider Man.

sprunkner · Post by **sprunkner** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:09 am

Secret Invasion started out great and turned into a wankfest.

Final Crisis might well be written in Greek, but it rewards repeated reading.

I was all set to hate the Jeph Loeb issue of Buffy... and it was the best thing ever and made me very nostalgic for Season Two.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:15 pm

Getting cheap laughs out of Cordy being dead, however, suckses.

Thought it was very Jeph Loeb.

Incidentally, I've just caught up on Ultimate X-Men in trades. How ******* crap was that?

Kirkman's great big melting pot of ideas that completely fall apart in the execution, and a great big glossing-over of the practicalities of the reset (what happened to Sinister? Is he back to being in SHIELD custody with X kills to his name still?) that make me wish BKV had never set up those loose ends.

And then Aaron Whatsit. Absolute Power? Colossus uses drugs to up his strength... that I can cope with... Jean's inexplicably back... okay, whatever, yeah fine... suddenly the other X-Men are junkies, then Scott follows suite in a bad afterschool special. Wahey. And what kind of ****wit orchestrates a drug deal wearing a blindfold. Where did Rogue et al get their stash from? How long have they been using? Oh, don't ask questions, he writes for Heroes.

Utter tosh. Cancellation is a step up. How did we go from Millar, Bendis and BKV to this? Ellis should have been given this gig, not Astonishing.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:55 am

Yep - good call. Astonishing could have happily, brilliantly ended with Giant Size and Ellis could have had his own playground with Ultimate X-Men.