Superman Vs the Hulk

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Post by KingMob » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:42 am

Heh, hadn't looked at this thread, sorry for only posting to go off-topic, but would like to make a couple of quick comments on the Morrison side-convo.
Jetfire wrote:Morrisons X-men, after a good start was very poor. Wolverine was hardly a 3D character, his writing on Jean Grey was a "Dark phoenix" wankfest and his Beast, Magneto and at times Xavier in particular were so terribly out of character as not to be the same characters as before.

Don't get me wrong Morrisons first stories on any title tend to be brillinat but they rapidly stem down hill if he has to write 1 book for any length of time.
GM said that his entire NXM run was a deliberate "love-letter to the stories of Chris Claremont." From what I understand he was actually attempting to obviously hit all the previous tropes (he posited that the X-books are a little world where the same things seem to keep happening all over again and yet hardly anything ever moves on) in his own fashion, but at the end of the set-ups he would have created actual consequences and evolve the characters and X-world beyond simply dropping back to status quo and getting ready to repeat everything again.
His whole proposal and mission statement for NXM is on the internet somewhere, if interested.

If you haven't already, checking out his long runs on Zenith, Animal Man, Doom Patrol and of course the Invisibles, might be an idea, to see stories of his that don't head downhill from the beginning and in fact are generally recognised to keep getting better and better. The end of the Invisibles is joycore.
Never read any of his JLA apart from Earth 2 as I don't particularly care for those characters, so can't comment.

(I loved his Beast and Cyclops, btw. GM's Cyclops is my favourite writing on that character ever. And his Emma Frost also rules, come to that.)

edit: Oh yeah, and Magneto out of char? Hmmm. Perhaps out of char if one only counts the 'noble' Magneto appearances. Also, drug-addict. Sublime was the Big Bad in NXM. Xorneto was awesome, IMHO. Wolvy...not exactly the most 3D of characters all the time anyway, was quite glad he wasn't the focus of the book all the time. And again, he got his developments. NXM was a reinvention of the characters and concepts without a reboot. It's meant to be the whole X-Men story, updated and evolved, done in 40 issues, the concept ready to move on to new horizons. Whether it works(ed) or not...

Apologies for going so massively off-topic.

Who would win, Hulk or Superman? Um, probably Superman, I suppose. Meh. Unless he was fighting Ultimate Hulk and someone told Ultimate Hulk he'd heard Superman call him a sissy. Then Hulk would squash blue-man with silly cape and Y-fronts...

Ultimate Wolverine vs Ultimate Hulk mini is in the works, I think...

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Post by Pissin' Poonani » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:04 am

So, with reference to the original topic of this thread, how do the characters actually match up? I only have a passing knowledge of both characters (origins, abilities, some of the more popular story arcs), but I would have said Superman all the way, just because as Brend so rightly pointed out, he's one of those annoying God-like characters.

Superman (to me) seems like he's near indestructable when it comes to anything this planet can throw his way, where as the Hulk, although undeniably nails, quite frequently has the dinner kicked out of him. Like I say, my knowledge is limited so be gentle.

I know Supes got killed, so what was so special about Doomsday that he was able to pound him to death? Was Kryptonite involved anywhere along the way? And finally, as the years have gone by have there been any revisions to Supermans abilities in order to make him more believable? (I know that sounds ridiculous in light of the fact that he's a super powered alien, but I mean have they scaled his powers down to be more in line with other characters?).

Your knowledge is vast, your answers appreciated. Take me now, or lose me forever.
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Post by Obfleur » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:08 am

When and how did Superman get killed? :o
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Post by Best First » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:17 am

Superman was killed by reading Jetfire's posts:

"Some of the X-Men were out of character because they were."

"You don't even have evidence"

uh-huh.
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Post by Jetfire » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:18 pm

Best First wrote:Superman was killed by reading Jetfire's posts:

"Some of the X-Men were out of character because they were."

"You don't even have evidence"

uh-huh.
It's quite clear. Especially as you do the whole "comments out of context thing" you do so well. As for the characters being pretty much different people udner morrison well if thats not clear to anybody who read the run then look:

Beast turning gay. Or refering to humans as "they all look the same to me?" Beast who was the characterised for years as the natural loved of tiny details and attention to inviduals detail, genetic or of a individual character

Magneto's entire tenure as psychopath Magneto. A 2D villian in using Maggies name and cloak without any deph of character or reason that makes Magneto the classic villian that he is. Magneto is not Apocalypse.

Proff X suddleny going the ultra heavy handed black Panthers style pro-mutant stance way and basically alienating humans which pretty much the opposite of well everything that he has been for 40 years.
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Post by Hound » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:23 pm

Jetfire wrote:
Best First wrote:Superman was killed by reading Jetfire's posts:

"Some of the X-Men were out of character because they were."

"You don't even have evidence"

uh-huh.
It's quite clear. Especially as you do the whole "comments out of context thing" you do so well. As for the characters being pretty much different people udner morrison well if thats not clear to anybody who read the run then look:

Beast turning gay. Or refering to humans as "they all look the same to me?" Beast who was the characterised for years as the natural loved of tiny details and attention to inviduals detail, genetic or of a individual character

Magneto's entire tenure as psychopath Magneto. A 2D villian in using Maggies name and cloak without any deph of character or reason that makes Magneto the classic villian that he is. Magneto is not Apocalypse.

Proff X suddleny going the ultra heavy handed black Panthers style pro-mutant stance way and basically alienating humans which pretty much the opposite of well everything that he has been for 40 years.
Those are the things that helped elevate it above the norm.
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Post by Jetfire » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:37 pm

Yes, psychopath 2D villians and suddleny altering characters for no apparent reason and for no story telling purpose makes for good reading.

I'm sorry but Whedon's Astonishing X-men highlights the poor quality of Moorisons post imperial storylines and the bad character work done on anybody not named Summers and Frost and everything else since Claremonts first return.
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Post by Best First » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:43 pm

Jetfire wrote:
Best First wrote:Superman was killed by reading Jetfire's posts:

"Some of the X-Men were out of character because they were."

"You don't even have evidence"

uh-huh.
It's quite clear. Especially as you do the whole "comments out of context thing" you do so well.
in english?

[uote]As for the characters being pretty much different people udner morrison well if thats not clear to anybody who read the run then look:

Beast turning gay. Or refering to humans as "they all look the same to me?" Beast who was the characterised for years as the natural loved of tiny details and attention to inviduals detail, genetic or of a individual character[/quote]

oh! oh! its... almost as if he is chaning, evolving you might say, its almost as if THAT WAS THE THEME. Christ.
Magneto's entire tenure as psychopath Magneto. A 2D villian in using Maggies name and cloak without any deph of character or reason that makes Magneto the classic villian that he is. Magneto is not Apocalypse.
Lots of times Magneto has been entirely 2D, especially in his earlier appearences. Not to mention the idea of him going a bit barking and looking to undermine Chuck is entirely within established parameters.
Proff X suddleny going the ultra heavy handed black Panthers style pro-mutant stance way and basically alienating humans which pretty much the opposite of well everything that he has been for 40 years.
oh no! more change! RUN!!!!

Not to mention the fact that Charles has gone agaisnt his won code quite a few times, look at his treatement of Moira, Proteous, that French village, the fact that his personality was part of teh crucible for Onslaught.

FFS.

I don't know why you are upset anyway, the plodding crap that chnages nothing and freezes characters 30 years ago is exactly what is being produced now, so go, enjoy.
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Post by Jetfire » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:06 pm

Best First wrote:
Jetfire wrote:
Best First wrote:Superman was killed by reading Jetfire's posts:

"Some of the X-Men were out of character because they were."

"You don't even have evidence"

uh-huh.
It's quite clear. Especially as you do the whole "comments out of context thing" you do so well.
in english?
As for the characters being pretty much different people under morrison well if thats not clear to anybody who read the run then look:

Beast turning gay. Or refering to humans as "they all look the same to me?" Beast who was the characterised for years as the natural loved of tiny details and attention to inviduals detail, genetic or of a individual character
oh! oh! its... almost as if he is chaning, evolving you might say, its almost as if THAT WAS THE THEME. Christ.
Evolving? Sorry suddleny changing personallities with a 60's black power moement and developing very ignorant and racist opinuons for no apparent reason or motivation, despite spending most of his life fighting for such integration is not character developement or evolution. I consider it bad writing.
Magneto's entire tenure as psychopath Magneto. A 2D villian in using Maggies name and cloak without any deph of character or reason that makes Magneto the classic villian that he is. Magneto is not Apocalypse.
Lots of times Magneto has been entirely 2D, especially in his earlier appearences. Not to mention the idea of him going a bit barking and looking to undermine Chuck is entirely within established parameters.
Proff X suddleny going the ultra heavy handed black Panthers style pro-mutant stance way and basically alienating humans which pretty much the opposite of well everything that he has been for 40 years.


oh no! more change! RUN!!!!

Not to mention the fact that Charles has gone agaisnt his won code quite a few times, look at his treatement of Moira, Proteous, that French village, the fact that his personality was part of teh crucible for Onslaught.
Most of those instances which showed how Charles learnt his lessons and shapped his character. Mutant supremency or segegation wasn't ever part of the adgenda. Onslaught was a merger of Mags/Proff X and doesn't count.
I don't know why you are upset anyway, the plodding crap that chnages nothing and freezes characters 30 years ago is exactly what is being produced now, so go, enjoy.

I'm sorry but thats rubbish. X-men has always had characters that change and evolve.

Cyclops was the straight forward leader in the 70's, became a cautios new love rin the early 80's, got racked with guilt in the mid 80's and developed a sense of humour in the 90's after being happily married.Wolverine softened up thanks to his young wards. Storm turned from African goddess to semi-punk rocker morlock leader. Gambit changed from a over confident immoral ladies man with a bad accent to a guilt racked hero who dispite his deeds never sees himself as a good person.
However I thought Collossus turning to Magneto in fatal attractions and any of Maggies 2D super villian of the week episodes are all equally sh#tty.

However suddleny changing characters isn't the same as evolution of the character or character developement. It's just shoddy writing.

I'm not against change. I just hate bad character writing. Sudden and inexplictable character changes that go against the character
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Post by Best First » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:44 pm

you do remember that the whoe set up of Morrion's run was that a year had passed and lots of folks were going through a second stage of mutation right?

the fcat that you don't like something doesn't make it bad writing.
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Post by KingMob » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:40 am

Best First wrote: the fcat that you don't like something doesn't make it bad writing.
and
BF wrote:almost as if he is chaning, evolving you might say, its almost as if THAT WAS THE THEME.
Bingo.

Beast is undergoing a secondary mutation, which he clearly states several times is affecting not only his appearance but his thought-processess; this in turn is used as his psychological weakness when Cassie attacks him. It's his fear. Here Comes Tomorrow also shows that had Pheonix not amputated the timeline, he would eventually have become utterly stressed, despondent, have a nervous breakdown and end up taking Kick and becoming infected by Sublime....making him the villain of the whole story. Hmm. Beast's character progression is one of the central strands of the whole thing. Sorry that you don't like it. More detail is required to disabuse some false assumptions though.

When Quentin starts to behave in a manner seen as different and new (ohmigod look at the title of the book) one of the first things said to him (by the Beast) is "It's possible you may be undegoing a secondary mutation." The links between secondary mutations and change in mindset are made several times. The characters are supposed to be EVOLVING.

Beast gay/all humans look alike? Perhaps you should reread the riot at Xaiver's storyline.

The cop (an old friend of Hank's) mentions something that happened between them ages ago, when Beast saved him and his wife; Beast replies (paraphrasing) "Oh, was that you? Sorry, all humans look alike to me, it's always save this one and save that one..."
To which the cop laughs and says Beast was making jokes like that all the way when he drove him to hospital and that he loves that dry wit Beast is known for.

Is Beast just joking? Is the cop an ignorant flatscan to stupid to realise Beast's dry wit is insults in disguise? What's up with the Beast? Have his jokes always been like that....hey, he was always insulting Wonder-Man, Gyrich, Cyke, Sabertooth, Bishop wtc with jokes...was he doing that all that time?
Wow, I'm asking questions about a character who had previous just been a big furry funny safety blanket! Beast is suddenly more interesting than he has been in years!
Morrison's writing has layers that makes you question and think, rather than just lol Beast made a joke luv it when he does that.

In case the metatextual humour is still not obvious to the reader, Cyke next objects to being photographed as he hates his photos; he always comes out looking "stiff and inhuman". To which the cop makes a crack about Cyke always looking like that in pictures. Shallowly seen by the masses in pictured form as uptight and a symbol of scary mutantcy? Cyclops? Really? Nahhhh.

Then Beast and the cop (who call each other by first names) talk some more and the cop congratulates Beast on coming out. To which Cyke says "He's not gay. Hank, you're not gay. I know you're not gay, you know you're not gay, what's with all the gay stuff?"

Beast tells him he said it to spite Trish Tilby, who broke it on the news in revenge, and he just decided to run with it. He was breaking new barriers and it was a good image to promote for both the homosexual and mutant communities. He wants to be a role-model for confused young people.
The overt ties between the two forms of bigotry are the next thing he goes on about when saying that all his life he's been attacked for the way he looks, behaves, dresses and in fact for just being who he is - he "may as well be gay! I'm as gay as the next mutant!"

Bigoted view of mutants = bigoted view of homosexuals. Being a mutant = being gay.

Cyclops then tells him that the only person who will find that funny is the Beast, but that he supports him...but is worried about his friend's behaviour of late (OMG is he acting out of character!?).

To take the simple (wrong) fact that "Beast is gay and hates humans." from what is a complex piece of writing showing the themes of what GM was doing with the characters, the depth he's putting into them and the decision to simply equate mutant-bashing with gay-bashing right there on the page is...an error, IMHO. Sorry.
Finally, mutants are a community, with their own ghettoes, lingo, fashion styles, concerns...they are a real community who lay claim to their rights and they're everywhere and they are just people who are mutants...rather than 20 people in the NY sewers who are not in any way relatable to.
And as much as everyone knows the X-Men are a metahpor for race/sexuality issues, seeing it put right there on the page was nice and it was about time someone did it some more, especially with homosexuality. Educating comic-readers is a good thing.

Magneto. Was addicted to Kick. Which is a drug. People change when they become drug-addicts. And he's done worse things in the past than [composite word including 'f*ck']-up Manhattan and instigate murder of baseline humans.

'Magneto had a lot of good ideas, Professor."
'Yes; he could also tap-dance, was kind to animals and by the way he was a psychotic mass-murderer.'

Magneto-worship is dangerous thinking...

Kick is also the aerosol form of Sublime.
Sublime is sentient genetic code, who is shown to be able to inspire pessimisim, self-destructive urges and be able to manipulate people to attempt to destroy/subjugate their fears. It's almost like a metaphor for both the personality changes that can come on from both drug-abuse and those encapsulated in bigotry. Sublime is literally an intelligent replicating matrix that makes people fear and hate what they don't understand...he was deliberately created to be an embodiment of the metaphor the X-Men are always supposed to be fighting.
And it's like the things the X-Men do (Beast 'coming out', inviting TV into the school) are designed to weaken those urges. Some public relations does more 'fighting' bigotry, fear and misunderstanding and therefore showing the X-Men to work and do stuff that matters to their world in 5 minutes than punching out Apocalypse in a 12-issue crossover event ever did.

Sublime was manipulating Magneto.
Magneto manipulated Esme.
Esme manipulated Angel.
Angel shot the White Queen.
The White Queen had just taken Kick and had become a target of Sublime's.

Mag's plan is also shown as clearly not working. He's a relic, trying the same silver-age plots over again. Blow something up and killing people, give them a spectacle. That only works for a short while and then they need another hit. Magneto's face on a T-shirt is more powerful.
Xorn did more for the mutant cause than Magneto.

Prof X going 'black panther'. Wait, how? Coz a lot of the stuff he did that was 'shocking' was really done by Cassie Nova. I need more, as setting up X-Corporation buildings, making the X-teams International Rescue, opening the school up, giving talks and hosting public events seems to indicate he was actively doing things to bring humans and mutants closer together. Ooh, he was literally walking the walk as well as talking the talk for a change.

It's like it was crafted by a very clever writer to be a linked over-arcing plot with one one theme that referenced the entire previous history of the franchise and updated it to be more relevent while still retaining continuity and characters, but taken to the next logical step that everyone had been prevaricating about going for the previous umpteen years.

Or maybe it's just bad writing.

Sorry it wasn't 'your' X-Men, but I loved it. Most interesting thing II've seen dowe with the franchise in years. Anyway, most of it immediately started getting retconned and we're retrograding with DeciMation...

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Post by Best First » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:29 am

thank you for taking the time to write that, i really... can't be arsed sometimes.

post and a half. :up:
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