UK Govt's ban on 'obscene' Internet pornography

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UK Govt's ban on 'obscene' Internet pornography

Post by Kaylee » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:21 pm

Following from what I thought was an interesting discussion the other day about paedophiles, how they can be dealt with and what laws are in place I thought it'd be interesting to talk about this-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 58,00.html
Censor the internet? Try catching the wind
David Rowan
Violent pornography may be repellent to most adults but banning it from British computers will be impossible



EVIL PLACE, the internet. When not tempting terrorists with sarin recipes, it is irresponsibly serving German cannibals their dinner, leading Japanese depressives to suicide and reuniting blameless friends to commit extramarital affairs. As if we weren’t being sufficiently depraved and corrupted, the Home Office has now uncovered a shocking online stash of extreme and violent pornography. It’s a wonder that Anglo-American forces have not yet invaded the net in search of the elusive, order-restoring “off” switch.
This latest internet panic concerns pornographic images that unquestionably go beyond what society, certainly the Obscene Publications Acts, would consider morally acceptable: images depicting bestiality, necrophilia, rape or torture, all now electronically available in just a couple of mouse-clicks. Material of this nature would not be permitted in licensed sex shops or in films, yet until now it has not been illegal to view it online. Hence the enthusiasm of the Home Office and the Scottish Executive to legislate to ban UK citizens from pointing their computers towards their hosts’ mostly foreign-based web servers.



It is, superficially, an attractive notion that criminalising the sight of “extreme” images will cleanse the national psyche. The “net porn pervs” demonised by the popular press for accessing these often repulsive websites will find no support here: personally, I find the sites’ profitable existence worrying, the ever-growing demand for them more so.

But however well-intentioned, the Government’s desire to play censor will meet technological, cultural and practical barriers that simply were not there in the battle to confront illegal child pornography. The online exploitation of children for sexual gratification, by international consensus, is so closely linked to their physical exploitation that a global effort continues successfully to limit its availability. Try achieving a similarly agreed global definition of “corrupting ” adult porn — and then consider how Ofcom, or our strained police forces, can ever secure Britain’s digital borders.

It is always unwise to legislate in response to a single emotive crime, and the current government consultation owes rather too much momentum to the brutal murder of Jane Longhurst, the Sussex teacher strangled two years ago. Her killer, Graham Coutts, was a regular visitor to such charming websites as Necrobabes, Death by Asphyxia and Hanging Bitches, and the day before the murder he spent about 90 minutes exploring images of necrophilia and asphyxial sex. Jane’s mother, Liz Longhurst, believes that the internet “normalised” Coutts’s disturbing sexual fantasies, convincing him that “he was not alone in harbouring these sick thoughts”. Her remarkable campaign, including a 35,000-signature petition, has persuaded MPs that the solution lies in criminalising the possession of such images, blocking access to the sites and giving Ofcom a new role as internet policeman.

These websites certainly appealed to Coutts’s disturbingly violent sexuality. But does that really justify the conclusion, as voiced by David Lepper, Jane Longhurst’s MP, that the internet “doubtless led to Jane’s death”? It is an assumption that needs to be thoroughly tested before a neutral communications channel is blamed for inciting, rather than reflecting, one of the darkest aspects of human nature. Murderers enacted their horrific fantasies long before a few million computers were linked together: maybe we should have been blaming books.

The internet undoubtedly makes such degrading images easier to find, and reinforces a sense of community among those stimulated by them. Yet there is simply too little convincing research to demonstrate that extreme pornography initiates acts of violence. Indeed, some psychologists argue the opposite — that it provides a safe outlet for those who might otherwise enact their malevolent fantasies.

There is also a wider question of definition. As Baroness Scotland of Asthal, the Home Office Minister. pointed out in a Lords debate last year, “there is no international consensus on what constitutes obscenity, or when the freedom of an adult to have access to obscene or pornographic material should be constrained”. In our increasingly atomised media culture, built around ever more niche consumer segmentation, who is to determine where “regular” pornography becomes “extreme”? Now that would be a fun Ofcom committee to sit in on. If a simulated rape sequence is unacceptable today, what about consensual S&M or even gay sex tomorrow? What tends to deprave or corrupt one person may prove perfectly inoffensive to another. Yet once the Government begins to pull down the curtains on the legally permissible internet, how can we prevent short-term political pressures determining what is safe for our private consumption?

Where children are involved, there is no such moral ambiguity. Few national governments or police forces would not consider child pornography a degrading and exploitative evil. That is why it has proved relatively easy to win international co-operation to close down such websites.

But try reaching agreement on unacceptable adult violence. If one jurisdiction accepts the Home Office view, the pornographers will merely move their web servers to another. Unless Britain adopts a Chinese-style firewall, that digital detritus might just leap over our national borders. And with barely 250 specialist police officers to examine computers in suspected child-porn and terrorist cases, who in practice is going to enforce the ban? You can bet that the profit-driven pornographers will find ways of remaining one step ahead.

When the Lords considered the matter, Baroness Buscombe, a Tory peer, had an answer: force computer shops to pre-install government-approved filters. Forget, for a moment, the limitations of such software, which will inevitably block entirely innocent pet-care pages. The notion assumes that undesirable content will be accessed only on static web pages, rather than through email, news groups, peer-to-peer networks or whatever mobile technology follows tomorrow. The Lords also appear not to have noticed the extraordinary boom in content created by ordinary citizens.

The internet needs to be understood simply as another communication channel for those depraved, flawed sexual beings called adults. We already have clear and effective laws against murder, rape, bestiality and any other crimes that pornographic websites are supposedly inciting. To legislate for a digital black pencil may satisfy immediate demands for action. But where the internet is concerned, legally enforceable bans rarely achieve their goal. Just ask the next eBay fraudster or penis-extension spammer who contacts you.
I'm generally of the same opinion with (most) porn that I am with videogames- if you're a psychopathic lunatic, you were probably a psychopathic lunatic before you found entertainment in said medium. I also don't like oppression of free-speech, which government imposed Internet restrictions invariably entail (no Internet censor ever seems to be perfect and are often responsible for blocking out perfectly harmless websites), also considering the law seems to make no definition on what 'obscene' pornography is... okay obviously rape and murder are pretty bad turnons, but what about sadomasochism and similar things?

Imo generally a pretty poorly thought out, knee-jerk reaction law. It needs far more planning and clearer definitions, not only of the crime but also how it is to be prooved and traced etc.

What are other people's thoughts here- good idea, bad idea?

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Post by Denyer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:54 pm

Try achieving a similarly agreed global definition of “corrupting ” adult porn[
Yup. I'm on the side of leaving consenting adults to do whatever they want in private and in publication, short of urging violence against unwilling others.
convincing him that “he was not alone in harbouring these sick thoughts”
That'd be because he isn't, then? The distinguishing factor being that most people separate fantasy and reality to a greater degree—i.e. they can be trusted to watch Saving Private Ryan without shooting people, and other acts of simulation. The same thing stops most people from leaping off roofs with kites.

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Post by Kaylee » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:57 pm

Denyer wrote:
convincing him that “he was not alone in harbouring these sick thoughts”
That'd be because he isn't, then? The distinguishing factor being that most people separate fantasy and reality to a greater degree—i.e. they can be trusted to watch Saving Private Ryan without shooting people, and other acts of simulation. The same thing stops most people from leaping off roofs with kites.
i hadn't thought of that- very true indeed.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:05 pm

im going to jail then.

ok i dont have any animal porn, or non consensual sex videos or images. but I have alot of BDSM stuff.

What I dont understand is there are websites, HUGE websites like www.alt.com for meeting other ppl into BDSM, they have millions of members just in the UK. so are they going to shut these places down when i post a pic of what i got up to last weekend?

I understand some images are wrong, non-consensual stuff. but some violent images are done with full consent, i could probably show most ppl things that dont bother me, but would make others upset. but if adults want to do things like this for thier own enjoyment wheres the harm.

BDSM isnt illegal, going to some of Londons biggest night clubs, like the torture garden isnt illegal. maryln mansson was just there. buy bondage gear isnt illegal. whipping my GF butt till it bleads isnt illegal.

but, owning a pic of it is? - fuzzy law aleart!

seriously im ****** then.
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Post by Kaylee » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:13 pm

:lol: i wouldn't worry mark, I'll be going to jail too and so will lots of others i think :)

I'm guessing if this law actually comes to fruition (as I guess it will) it will be targetted at really extreme stuff, but we'll see...

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:19 pm

I understand some stuff, like some fantasy rape sites, of necrophila is ****** up. and I dont think feeding ppls desire to rape or [composite word including 'f*ck'] dead ppl is a good thing.

But I do have a feeling thier law is so naive and stupid it would include half the stuff i get up to on a regular basis and see no harm in.
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Post by Denyer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:24 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:some violent images are done with full consent
And the vast majority are faked, just like any other type of photographic content... take the popularity of "college kids gone wild" sites. Staged. Because recording and publicising random drunk people copulating with the insensible would end in legal action.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:37 pm

this is true, buyt for example if u got some girl on video who comes for an interview (im not going to name web sites here) - the guy explains what they are going to do, and shes up for it because thats what she does to get her kicks.
and then u the act take place, I can assure you these arnt faked.

even tho everyone invloed wanted to do it, in fact some of the girls in questions are very famous for it, if im caught with an image of her being what can be deemed as 'sexual violence' then im going to get in trouble.

What I want to know right now is exactly what does thei new law say will get me in trouble? whats banned etc.

A good friend of mine last week actually went and did a bdsm porn shoot for a leading website. now what you see on her video would to alot of ppl im sure look very violent. now she showed me her video and told me how she enjoyed herself.
Im sitting here thinking, in theory she could get done for having the video but not actually doing it, because what she did isnt illegal, but the video and pics are, or will be.

stupid law.

so in short, its ok to do violent stuff, consensual that is, but your not allowed to take photos of it. even tho its of yourself... erm...
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Post by Denyer » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:26 pm

It's the "contributing to delinquency" argument. Which is—to a very limited extent—valid. There'll always be idiots who get the bright idea of running electric current through nipple clamps and forget about proximity to the heart... and some people will be encouraged to raid a mortuary by fake (or real) photos of corpses.

Equally, people will pick up effective theft/murder schemes from A Touch Of Frost and similar programmes.

As far as BSDM stuff goes, nerves aren't very precise things, and endorphins are involved in both pleasure and pain responses—plus they're physically addictive. It's therefore unsurprising to find it a common interest, and I agree that raising one person's interpretation of consenting adult acts over another's—and using it as a measure for censorship—is both ignorant and presumptuous.

Even with adults there are circumstances in which informed consent might not be said to be possible, but they're few and far between where intoxicants aren't involved.

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Post by Kup_1 » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:54 pm

Well, I'm not into, or look at a lot of this stuff...

But...to each thier own, ya know?

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:12 am

I personaly think the BDSM community is safer then going out on the pull down the pub.
the 'saftey' aspect in BDSM play is always over talked about - if you 'dont' know what your doing and upset one, push thier limits etc your frowned upon.
Ppl who do this generaly are ****** up and are pushed out of the community, which due to its nature is close knit.

Its like alot of things i guess. theres always someone who will ruin it for the rest of us.
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Post by Eline » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:05 am

But how will they check if something is faked/consensual when it looks like it's not?

Then you might as well ban all porn. Which would not be so nice.

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:03 am

I think the key word here is going to be "fisting".

There, I've said it.

Under UK law, any porn that's sold in the shops cannot inlude images of fisting, because it's defined as assaulting someone in a sexual area with a fist. Doesn't matter if they've done it before, or indeed, if they enjoy it. No, fisting is defined as "violent porn". So that will be right out...So when a friend put a gay fisting video on his media centre at a party the other week, why did everyone in the room go "uuurgh!" (but continued to watch) instead of going out to rape and kill women? Anyone?

And the kind of BDSM porn that is allowed to be sold in UK shops is extremely flimsy and unconvincing, which is presumably why people get it off of the internet in the first place.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:08 am

not to define this, are you talking of using a fist to punch someone, or a fist used in an orffice... how daft, its not my cup of tea, but how daft, if someone leaves thier lil finger out of the equation its no legal. but if they dont and i watch it, im a sexual nutjob.. stupid
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:14 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:not to define this, are you talking of using a fist to punch someone, or a fist used in an orffice...
The UK porn censors see no difference between a fist used to punch someone and a fist used to penetrate someone. Both are violent assaults, apparently, and you can't show them in porn. I mean, it's not like anyone does that sort of thing in real life or anything, is it?
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:19 am

again i can be more crude, but some very large women might require a fist.

maybe its a small hand, my hand is huge, two of my fingers is as wide as some small persons hand etc... its all subjective.

I would have thought its the intention you perform the act with is in question.

im going to say 'punch *******' that whilst is fisting, is different to just using erm your fist.

ive just realised u can get fist shape dildos, are they banned too?

ok thats all rather sick.





so does anyone know, or have a list of whats going to be 'banned'


I still refer to the ide that i can perform an act with my GF for example. totaly legal, but if i film it, and put it on my computer im breaking the law.

nuts!
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Post by Obfleur » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:31 am

...so, what about Goatse?

:D
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Post by Scraplet » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:38 pm

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote: I still refer to the idea that i can perform an act with my GF for example. totaly legal, but if i film it, and put it on my computer im breaking the law.

nuts!
Absolutely. These kind of campaigns are usually run by people who feel that anything other than the missionary position between a married couple is abhorant. :roll:

They have no understanding of the tastes of many real people, nevermind subcultures such as BDSM. So, they start a campaign without realising that there are any complexities. They are ignorant and blinded by their own taste and opinion of what is civilised and unable to grasp the concept of consentual acts commited by anthything other than corrupted or phycopthic people. They really beleive it is a simple issue of 'ban this stuff and people will get better / not be corrupted further'.

They don't realise it, but they are not in recipt of enough information to have an opinion yet.
They need a wakeup call :twisted:

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Post by Kaylee » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:24 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/p ... rn_doc.pdf

That is one of the connected documents, I'm digesting it now.

EDIT - important areas seem to be as follows (tho it's still vague):
a desire to protect those who
participate in the creation of sexual
material containing violence, cruelty or
degradation, who may be the victim of
crime in the making of the material,
whether or not they notionally or
genuinely consent to take part;

...

Any new offence would apply only to
pornographic material containing explicit
actual scenes or realistic depictions of:
i) intercourse or oral sex with an animal;
ii) sexual interference with a human corpse;
iii) serious violence in a sexual context;
iv) serious sexual violence.1

...

40. In (c) above, “serious violence” will
involve or will appear to involve serious
bodily harm in a context or setting which
is sexual – for example, images of
suffocation or hanging with sexual
references in the way the scenes are
presented. In (d) above “serious sexual
violence” will involve or will appear to
involve serious bodily harm where the
violence is sexual.
41. By “serious bodily harm” we mean
violence in respect of which a prosecution
of grievous bodily harm could be brought
in England and Wales or in Scotland,
assault to severe injury.

to impose a maximum penalty for
possession less than the current OPA
and the CG(S)A penalty of 3 years, or
n to impose a penalty for possession of
three years and increase the penalty for
OPA offences and offences under
section 51 of the CG(S)A, to maintain
the distinction, to 5 years. (Arguably, the
maximum penalty for possession of
material in a) and b) could not exceed
2 years, the maximum penalty in
England and Wales for bestiality and
necrophilia, so there might be a need to
differentiate within the new offence for
different types of material.)

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Post by Jetfire » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:37 pm

Denyer wrote:
Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:some violent images are done with full consent
And the vast majority are faked, just like any other type of photographic content... take the popularity of "college kids gone wild" sites. Staged. Because recording and publicising random drunk people copulating with the insensible would end in legal action.
Indeed. The stupidness of this law is much like the stupidness of sex in movies. I can preform many sexual acxts at 16 or 17 (or 14 if I visit Russia), heck if I'm correct I could be invited to watch a friends do it with his girl but I can't watch people pretend to do them on tape :wtf:
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Post by Denyer » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:50 pm

Bit more sensible, IMO. If someone is debarred from taking part in porn videos by age, it gives them another few years in which to reach fuller understanding of material persisting in circulation.

Faking, though, should either be applied across the board to any depiction of illegality (drugs, violence, etc. in TV show and films as well as sex) or the hypocrisy ended. IMNSHO.
Metal Vendetta wrote:Under UK law, any porn that's sold in the shops cannot inlude images of fisting, because it's defined as assaulting someone in a sexual area with a fist. Doesn't matter if they've done it before, or indeed, if they enjoy it.
Wonder how they wrap their heads around someone fisting themselves? eg, Violet from FTV... it'd be extremely unrealistic for anyone watching that to deem it assault.
Last edited by Denyer on Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:27 pm

that law is stupid - its got so many daft ideas i dont even know where to being.
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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:38 pm

Denyer wrote:IMNSO
:???:
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Kaylee » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:45 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Denyer wrote:IMNSO
:???:
In My Not So Humble Opinion i think its short for (sans the H :)) or something similar?

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Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:58 pm

Oh, OK. Thought it was a new one.
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
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Post by Denyer » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:00 pm

Whoops.

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