London on Alert again...

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:44 am

Again I agree with Brend - also the cops had been watching his block of flats for weeks as they suspected somthing.

Also eye witness say that they shouted police, waved badges and stuff, he still ran, into a tube station (unless your dumb mate, one day before some ppl tried to blow ppl up on a tube ) bit of a silly idea in the current situation.

the moral of story, when police say stop, stop. when u run into a tube station, and are told to stop, stop. when you acting like a dodgey **** and are told to stop, stop.

Scraplet · Post by **Scraplet** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:55 pm

Brendocon wrote: Try "looked suspicious because he clocked that the police were watching him, legged it into a tube station, jumped the security barrier and ran down the escalator."

They were plain-clothes police. If he noticed someone following him, he was unlikley to know it was the police. So he ran. I would probably have done the same.

Brendocon wrote:Unless he thought he was running from the mafia, dawg.

Possible. More likely he thought he was running from thugs. Especially with all the morons currently calling anyone with dark skin a terrorist. The nice people in my neighbourhood have smashed up a local mosque and beaten up some Albanian refugees since 7th July. I'm sure similar things are occuring in London. The poor guy may have had good reason to be afraid and run.

EDIT: I've just heard on the news that his work visa had run out. Perhaps he thought he was being persued for that reason. Not a death-penalty offence by any means though.......

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:08 pm

they showed him thier badge, he ran. they shouted Police, everybody dow.

he knew they were cops, he just legged it. into a tube station. which in the current light of things = stupid.

risk factor was high enough to warrent lethal force.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:10 pm

I doubt any of you will agree with this, but I'm gonna throw it out there anyway.

I'd rather the guilty get away than have police killing the innocent in their search for the guilty.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:14 pm

Ah, but would you rather the guilty blow hundreds of people up than an innocent get the **** shot out of him for being an idiot and legging it from the police for no reason?

I don't look at it as "he died because the police were being overzealous" but as "he died because he was stupid enough to run from the police when they asked him to stop, then hop the barrier in a tube station."

I have sympathy for him and his family and all that, don't get me wrong, but if he has no kids, it's surely a Darwin Award candidate.

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:58 pm

I've actually been in this situation, surrounded by armed police who thought I was a terrorist threat. Know what I did?

I put my ******* hands in the air and I stayed completely still and did whatever they told me to do. And you know what? For some crazy reason, they didn't shoot me. I've no sympathy for this guy whatsoever. He may have been innocent but that's no excuse for being thick as pig****. What did he think was going to happen, that the police would give him a little present and let him go? That he could jump on a tube as it was pulling out of the station and wave to them from the back window just like in the movies? Bollocks. He made his own bed when he tried to run from them. If I had tried that back when I had 12 MP5s pointed at my head then I would now be a dead man and it would have been no-one's fault but my own.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:25 am

http://www.itv.com/news/index_1677571.html

Well it seems reports of him jumping barriers and fleeing police were greatly exagerrated.

Pretty disgusting as far as I'm concerned...

Mistakes led to tube shooting
11.05PM, Tue Aug 16 2005

ITV News has obtained secret documents and photographs that detail why police shot Jean Charles De Menezes dead on the tube.

The Brazilian electrician was killed on 22 July, the day after the series of failed bombings on the tube and bus network.

The crucial mistake that ultimately led to his death was made at 9.30am when Jean Charles left his flat in Scotia Road, South London.

Surveillance officers wrongly believed he could have been Hussain Osman, one of the prime suspects, or another terrorist suspect.

By 10am that morning, elite firearms officers were provided with what they describe as "positive identification" and shot De Menezes eight times in the head and upper body.

The documents and photographs confirm that Jean Charles was not carrying any bags, and was wearing a denim jacket, not a bulky winter coat, as had previously been claimed.

He was behaving normally, and did not vault the barriers, even stopping to pick up a free newspaper.

He started running when we saw a tube at the platform. Police had agreed they would shoot a suspect if he ran.

A document describes CCTV footage, which shows Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" and descended slowly on an escalator.

The document said: "At some point near the bottom he is seen to run across the concourse and enter the carriage before sitting in an available seat.

"Almost simultaneously armed officers were provided with positive identification."

A member of the surveillance team is quoted in the report. He said: "I heard shouting which included the word `police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."

The report also said a post mortem examination showed Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed, with the casings left lying in the tube carriage.

Police have declined to comment while the mistaken killing is still being investigated.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:49 am

But surely its ok to kill innocent peole in the name of national security?

just as long as, you know, its no one you know.

All things are justified in the name of national security.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:35 am

but emotions + national security would never work?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:43 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:but emotions + national security would never work?

i was thinking more along that lines of morality...

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:58 am

seriously tho, is this more just **** police trainning? - obviously in the light of the failed bombings, tension was high, the gun squad lost its cool tho and made a 'fatal' error of judgement.
Better trainning required?

Post by **Best First** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:04 am

I think they key thing that is required is the ability to hold our hands up to our mistakes.

This has cover up written all over it, as long as we operate in this fashion we will never improve.

If you are on a 'gun squad' you shouldn't lose your cool - these areth situations these people should be trained to deal with. So yes, clearly we need better training, but we also need cuplability.

someone should, at the very least, lose their job over this.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:15 am

Thats a tough one aswell.

Where does the blame really lie? - the man who pulled the trigger is following orders, the commander is following advice.
I guess theres that guy who was taking a piss , perhaps its his fault.

But I agree, instead of covering up, we should hold our hands up and say we ****** up.

Maybe it was bad timming, but SO19 (not CO19 as the paper reported) is on duty nearly everyday in the capital, and have an almost spotless record, it could be argued that statistically they will always make a mistake at some a point, they are but human and falible. - I appreciate thats a bit a grandad.

Of course, thats a pretty cold a clinical way to look at things, if I was a relative that wouldnt be helping me much either...

Metal Vendetta · Post by **Metal Vendetta** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:22 am

From the initial evidence it appeared that the Brazilian was at fault. Now I'm not sure, I still tend to come down on the side of the police, but if the situation was as ITV have reported then they made a big mistake there.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:44 pm

Where was the common sense?

The guy did not have a bag. He did not have a heavy jacket. So even if he had been a terrorist were 7 shots point blank to the head really neccesary?

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:46 pm

im amazed that theres much left of a head to shoot at after the 2nd shot...

Post by **Best First** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:55 pm

it might be that multiple officers fired simultenously.

agree about the common sense aspect tho.