The Up Series

[Shanti418]

Anybody seen all of these?

I remember seeing and reading about them growing up, and watching a half hour here and there, but I always wanted to wait and see them all at the same time chronologically. Now, with the DVD collection, I finally can. (halfway through 21 up now).

I had no idea social class and upbringing played such a crucial role in determining ones life in England. I mean, I knew it was similar to America, probably a little more strict, but it seems that private schooling is much more popular and public schooling doesn't really allow you the chance to better your lot. Is it still the same way there? What kind of education did you guys go through?

[Autobloke]

Never heard of the show - description?
My schooling was standard and unremarkable. I missed alot due to my continued poor heath. And 'cos school was pump.

[Shanti418]

It's a famous documentary. Basically, get 14 kids, see what they're like, how they're doing, what's important to them, etc, at 7. Then check in with them every seven years to see how their perspectives have changed and if they're meeting their goals. It's like life in time lapse photography.
Started in 1964, I think. 42 up in 1999 was the last one they shot, but I think 49 up is still a go.

So what's all this they talk about with grammar school or composition school?

[Autobloke]

composition school?

I think you mean 'comprehensive' - that's what I went to. Buggered if I know what the difference is. I assume comprehensive means you get the lot - as in 'comprehensive'. Mine sucked, so I guess that's included too. Grammer is like posher. Or lamer, if you were a lowly comp.
Where's Rebis' vast brain when you need it?

[Guest]

Where's Rebis' vast brain when you need it?

Reminiscing over the old grammar school days.

Heard of the Up series, never seen any. I think they've started another run, though, or maybe it was Dr Robert Winston doing some longish-term study of infants.

In a nutshell (as far as I am aware):

Comprehensive - Grange Hill.
Grammar School - If..

Hideously stereotypical examples, btw.

[Eline]

I had no idea social class and upbringing played such a crucial role in determining ones life in England. I mean, I knew it was similar to America, probably a little more strict, but it seems that private schooling is much more popular and public schooling doesn't really allow you the chance to better your lot. Is it still the same way there? What kind of education did you guys go through?

Never saw the series, only heard about it, but it sounds very interesting!

My education was pretty good:
from 6-11 years in basic school, when that school I went to was still not too bad
from 11-17 years in one of the best schools in the country, I'm still happy about the things I learnt there
from 17-24 in university of techonology, also one of the best

[Shanti418]

So were those schools public or private? Would you say your parents were well off?

[Eline]

We don't have public or private schools (I think), you can go to any school you want. For some you have to reach a certain level of intelligence/do a test.

The school I went to when I was 11 had quite a high level of education, you could only go there if your final test for the basic school was good enough. Not depending on your financial situation.

For university we did not have any entry exam; but I did need to have learnt Maths and Science in the highschool before. And your highschool needed to be of a certain education level.

In short: you can go anywhere if you're smart.

And my parents are not so well off, just average I think, or a bit above average.

[Shanti418]

So is less expected of the kids who are less smart? Do they go to vocational schools or quit formal schooling earlier than those who test higher?

Would you say that you have more or less schooling than your parents? Do you think there's a pressure or expectation for you to make more money and be more successful than someone with less schooling?

[Autobloke]

I think they've started another run, though, or maybe it was Dr Robert Winston doing some longish-term study of infants.

Do you mean 'Child Of Our Time'? Where they're following the development of a group of kids from birth to twenty years old.
I wish Doc Winston was my dad - he's kinda cool.

As for the other stuff, I'd say that today we have more schooling than our parents - or at least the option to do so. I was just glad to get away from school - it wasn't fun or even bearable most days. I don't know if I'd class myself as 'smart' or not. Or even average.
I do have my moments of utter genius though.
As for pressure, I'd say that successful parents want successful kids - perhaps more for status and image than anything else. Also, those that didn't do well at school may want their children to just do better than they did themselves.
Of course, there are also those parents who couldn't care less either way.

[Eline]

So is less expected of the kids who are less smart? Do they go to vocational schools or quit formal schooling earlier than those who test higher?

Would you say that you have more or less schooling than your parents? Do you think there's a pressure or expectation for you to make more money and be more successful than someone with less schooling?

The system works like this:
4-6 years: kindergarten-like, learn through playing
6-12 years: basic school, same for everyone
12+ years: highschool, different levels. Where you go depends on the test results at the last year in basic school, there are 3 levels. The lowest is 4 years and has more 'practical' subjects and you can specialize in certain areas, the middle one is 5 years and the highest one is 6 years.
I went to a school where they only had the 6-year variant plus mandatory Greek and/or Latin.

After that, if you don't quit:
A. middle practical education (MBO), which you do after the 4 years of highschool. I don't know how long this takes, 1-3 years probably.
B. higher practical education (HBO), which you do after the 5 years of highschool, or after the MBO. I think you get a bachelor degree here, but I'm not sure. It takes 3 years.
C. university, which you do after the 6 years of highschool or after the HBO. You can either do a bachelor or a master. It takes 4-6 years.

For most jobs you need at least MBO.

I have the same schooling as my parents; went to exactly the same highschool. My father went to university as well, my mother is in university now, which is pretty cool. She did not have the opportunity when she was young.

I think there is a bit of pressure, of course. If you spent the time and money on your education, you would like to see the results.

[Shanti418]

That sounds like a pretty good system.

Here in America it's
5-11 : Elementary School
11-14 : Middle School
15-18 : High School

Then after that, you basically get a job or go to college. Problem is, vocational training in public schools is all but dead, so high school graduates don't really have any knowledge out of the gate aside from rudimentary math and writing skills that they can put towards a job. There is no high school with "practical" subjects. The idea of saying, "Well, you didn't do well on a test, so you're going to be blue collar for the rest of your life," offends my American socialization a bit, but it is definetly pragmatic and realistic.

As for college, it's getting really expensive(how expensive? I started going to a public university in 1999. Tuition for a semester was $1000 for 12 hours. This next semester, it's $4000 flat rate whether you take 6 or 18 hours), and quite honestly, a bachelor's doesn't mean as much as it used to here in the US. If you want to be ABSOLUTELY assured of living in the middle to upper middle class, you have to have a Masters, IMHO. That's probably the thing I like best about the system you described: The MBO, a nice medium between "Might as well use it to blow your nose" high school diploma and "I paid out my ass and all I got was this piece of paper" bachelor's.

[Eline]

The idea of saying, "Well, you didn't do well on a test, so you're going to be blue collar for the rest of your life," offends my American socialization a bit, but it is definetly pragmatic and realistic.

But you can always go all the way to a master's degree, that's the good part.
Just follow MBO-HBO-University, or apply for a university entry exam when you're 21+ years old.
It will take you longer, but you will get there.

[Guest]

And you will most probably feel better for it too!

I know I do.

[Eline]

Yup That's a good thing about the system.

Though I took the easy smart-kids route.

[Autobloke]

Yup That's a good thing about the system.

Though I took the easy smart-kids route.

Us dumb kids didn't do so well. Although I kicked a bit of arse at English and Creative Writing.
Never had to study for it - just natural talent.
Surprisingly, I also did well in Physics, even though I never listened. And I copied from my smart mate during the lessons (but not the exams). Now I make up psuedo-science for my (hopefully upcoming) book series.
Only got a 'C' in art too. Bloody 'draw what you see - not what you THINK you see' teacher mentality. Talk about stifling.

I sucked royally at maths though - still do. I used to work with CNCs, and that made my head hurt so much.