images speak louder than words, and so i think, does this.

[the uiltmate prime fan]

http://www.bushsamerica.com/counting/

i really dont want this to turn into a debate, but the facts are the facts. a little bit of the reality behind the ever increasing us casualties in this war.

[Señior's Covenant]

[Kup_1]

http://www.bushsamerica.com/counting/

i really dont want this to turn into a debate, but the facts are the facts. a little bit of the reality behind the ever increasing us casualties in this war.

Well, as someone who has fought in the first Gulf War, lost 3 friends from it, and lost 2 from this one....


Anyone who uses thier names on these sites to further thier own "Bush-Bashing"..

Well....it really pisses me off.






Sorry for the language.

[shaxper]

I think it's really cool that someone took the time to include all those individual names and corresponding information, but why start with June of 2005?

[Impactor returns 2.0]

as they are the latest casultys?

What I find interesting is that alot of them seem to be ranking soilders, lots of seargents etc..

[Shanti418]

What I find ridiculous is how Americans have been barred by the corporate media from seeing these soldiers coming home in caskets, from seeing these soldiers, or any other people, die in Iraq.

I guess the lesson from Vietnam is, "Just don't let the public SEE the carnage of war, and we'll cut down on the dissent of the war."



And Kup, I am in no way disparaging the commitment or the sacrifice of our armed services. I just believe that this is an unjust, immoral, wrong war.

[Best First]

What I find ridiculous is how Americans have been barred by the corporate media from seeing these soldiers coming home in caskets, from seeing these soldiers, or any other people, die in Iraq.

I guess the lesson from Vietnam is, "Just don't let the public SEE the carnage of war, and we'll cut down on the dissent of the war."

badda bing - democracy is dead.

And people who use deaths to protest agsint Bush are no worse than those who proclaim every dead man and women a hero in an attempt to stigmatise criticism of the conflict. At least the former are attempting to stimulate debate rather than stifle it.

[Shanti418]

Democracy DEPENDS on an informed public, and we resigned ourselves to pissing our days away to television, celebrity, and materialism a LONG time ago. Doubleplus

[the uiltmate prime fan]

.....And Kup, I am in no way disparaging the commitment or the sacrifice of our armed services. I just believe that this is an unjust, immoral, wrong war.

echoing shanti's comments here. i have nothing against the vast majority of troopers fighting over there, because they are doing something, im ashamed to say, i dont think i would have the courage to do.

that said, i believe we owe it to not only each and every one of these people, as well as all those still alive, to stop this war by whatever means nessary. i agree, politizeing {damnit, spelling.} these deaths is a horrible thing. but so is preventing their familes from being there when they return. at least, by keeping their names alive, we help honor their memory, even a little bit.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

can u honestly stop ppl from seeing these images when u have cable TV - ie news from all over the world and the Internet?

If you didnt realise that ppl were dying in Iraq, then you must be erm quite blind to world affairs I guess. so using them to damm Bush is like saying to me
"you dude, look at this list of ppls names, these guys all died, because of Bush!!!"

well crap, i thought no one died over there...

I dunno somthing doesnt ring true in my head.

[Señior's Covenant]

can u honestly stop ppl from seeing these images when u have cable TV - ie news from all over the world and the Internet?

Most folks are too busy watching the enterainment news, Joey, and that new Britney Spears "reality" show.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

if 'these' ppl are watching these shows, then they probably dont give a **** if ppl die over there.

[the uiltmate prime fan]

and that is the point of all this. trying to make them care, to deliver a perverbial shock treatment to their sensiblities. trying to show them that these are not just numbers, faceless and insignificant, but real people, someones son or daughter, wife or husband, father or mother. proving to the american people that no amount of material wealth is worth the lives of all these people, not just our soldiers, but those of our alies, and the innocent iraqis caught in the middle of this immoral war.

thats all i can say at this moment, without becoming wrothing and incoherant. or, more incoherant then usual.

[Shanti418]

But for me, the real problem is that even if the Iraq war never existed, my country would still be in some deep trouble because of the things we're discussing.

Ignorance, apathy, feverent nationalism, materialism, xenophobia, aggresivness, and religious fundamentalism aren't good things, war or not.

[the uiltmate prime fan]

But for me, the real problem is that even if the Iraq war never existed, my country would still be in some deep trouble because of the things we're discussing.

Ignorance, apathy, feverent nationalism, materialism, xenophobia, aggresivness, and religious fundamentalism aren't good things, war or not.

one thing at a time shanti. as kennedy said to khruschev, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. stopping the killing should be that step.

[Shanti418]

I'm not saying we shouldn't work to end the war, I'm just saying, the Iraq War is not wrong with this country. Even George Bush isn't what's wrong with this country.

[Kaylee]

I'm not saying we shouldn't work to end the war, I'm just saying, the Iraq War is not wrong with this country. Even George Bush isn't what's wrong with this country.

Something I've come to find very encouraging about the USA is also something that took me ages to get my head around. It often feels like the country is full of right wing religious nutters.

AFAIK it's not tho. All the Americans I've seen and spoken to are, for the very very most part, friendly, concerned and generally of the opinion that other people should be allowed to be happy. You're not bad people.

What you do have is a media that often polarises debate one way or another, which often influences public opinion i think as well as reflect it, which also makes the country itself feel like its full of either extreme left or right wing.

You also have a government that is very much a product of similar thinking. Your governments and media can and do change however.

When it comes down to it most people are pretty good I think that's true of the USA too. I've got faith in that, same as I have the same faith here in the UK. No matter how shoddy our politicians or how much the people at large can have the wool pulled over their eyes, the people are still good at heart and that makes the country worthwhile- because in the end the people make the country, no matter how the ruling powers might try and change it.

{ah, feelgood post ^_^}

[Impactor returns 2.0]

its society - gun culture - gung-ho - bang bang, lets go to war - etc, support the yanky stars and stripes. its culture man...

[Shanti418]

I wasn't trying to say at all that American people are bad. I live in Texas, which according to popular opinion is an absolute BASTION of ultraconservatism. Hell, George Bush used to legislate for this state less than two miles from where I'm typing from right now. And here, most people are not right wing nutcases.

We ARE good people. Sometimes we empathize with our government too much: for example, you go to another country, and normally you'll get a reaction something like, "Well, I don't like your government, but you're all right, you're just another person trying to get through life," whereas if you come here, the way your country is percieved by the media and our government influences our view of you HEAVILY.

Our government and our media are VERY messed up. I am a student of history, and understand the inevitability of change, but at the same time, I see government and media as both subservient to corporations, and to a larger extent, capitalism, and I don't see how that's going to change, nor do I see how we can affect real change in our federal and media institutions without the removal of corporate interests.

On one hand, I feel that a lot of Americans are perfectly happy being hypnotized to sleep on Tom Cruise/Katie Holmes, Makeover shows, and buying the new burger at Wendy's. It's like a castle: we don't care what's going on outside the walls as long as we don't have to see it and as long as it doesn't affect our day to day existance. When AMERICA has to pay two bucks a gallon, now there's an oil problem. When AMERICA loses people to terrorism, now terrorism is a problem. Right now, we don't give a s*** about the environment, but I guarentee you, once it affects us, we'll be on it like white on rice.

On the other hand, I think our collective ace in the hole is the strength of the American conciousness: if we keep on going down the road that we're on right now, the middle class will decrease rapidly. And as we all know, the middle class is the precious buffer between the haves and have nots: they are the defenders of a status quo which gives them enough scraps from the table for them to justify its existance. Once they're gone, and all the collective American people have to look at is the cold corpse of the American Dream, the American people WILL rise up and take the power back.

[Kaylee]

[Señior's Covenant]

Um...Shanti?...........

Well said man.