Last Doctor Who? [inc. spoilers]

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:43 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:I just can't figure it out... its really confusing

timelords: we fought a huge war against the daleks that (appeared to) wipe out half the galaxy and took us all out in the process!

rose: oooh look the TARDIS made me into a god for 5 minutes (after which time I would have died) but long enough to destroy the daleks and bring back everyone who died!

timelords: bollocks... why didn't we think of that?? we could have sacrified just one of us instead of all of us and half the universe! oh well... live and learn... er... wait...?

it makes my brain hurt!

Isn't there a timelord moral issue with using the time vortex to erase the Daleks from existence? Kind of like why the Doctor never went back and destroyed the Daleks before they became a threat?

Rose's action was pretty much error correction. The Daleks fought in the Time War, lost, but the Emperor survived, went back in time and created a new breed of Daleks that was "never meant to exist" (a biased person could say, though "meant to exist" implies an acceptance of fate/destiny and claiming that something that has happened wasn't meant to contradicts that belief... oh look, I've gone cross-eyed), and Rose just sort of wiped out all the Daleks from that point on.

It's the difference between wiping out a race's epilogue, rather than their entire existence. Or, to use a ropy analogy, George Lucas choosing whether he should defile Star Wars by just making three **** new films or pissing over the DVD releases of the originals as well...

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:47 pm

But I thought that the Time War was fought out of time, i.e. whoever lost was wiped from existence or something?

I really don't see anything different in moral terms about the time lords wiping the daleks out using the time vortex or by using whatever weapons they fought the time war with.

The end result is the same- in theory no daleks.

Only difference was one appeared to bring misery to many worlds and killed many many many people (including the time lords) and the other apparently could restore all those who died needlessly.

S'ides, the time lords didnt have that much of a problem wiping the daleks out of existence totally in Genesis of the Daleks, t'was only the doctor who had an attack of conscience there

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:01 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:But I thought that the Time War was fought out of time, i.e. whoever lost was wiped from existence or something?

That was my initial assumption, but blokey from Holby/Casualty/Whatever seemed to know who they were. And didn't Bucky O'Harkness have knowledge of the Daleks?

There was a comment about "the Daleks all disappeared - they went off to fight in the Time War" or something, which gave me the impression that it was fought in the distant future. I never quite grasped the notion, personally.

And if they used the TARDIS to wipe the Daleks from existence, then that would have become part of the timestream, the Daleks never would have existed and there never would have been any need for them to use the TARDIS because the Daleks never would have existed so they never would have used the TARDIS because the Daleks never would have existed so they never would have used the TARDIS so the Daleks never would have been erased from existence so thefsbikbwua cfonWOFon and Cyclonus never would have been alive in the future to kill Shockwave despite it already having happened in the future which is Scourge's past even though it has will have going to have happened happened...

A White Hole?

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:12 pm

I think a big thing with the whole paradoxes bit is Dr. Who seems to ignore/pay heed to such issues as and when it needs to

As I said, it didn't seem to bother the timelords (or the timeline) when they sent the Doctor to wipe out the daleks before their creation in Genesis.

Also, the time vortex could just destroy those daleks in that moment, like it did in Parting of the Ways? It'd still win the time war without blowing up our minds because of the hokey madness of temporal science (or lack thereof

) in Dr. Who

And BTW my information on the time war losers being wiped out of time came from... REBIS! It must therefore be true. His word is law

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:10 pm

both Dr WHO Time Wars
and
TF Time Wars

result in to many questions and a plot device!

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:16 pm

Brendocon wrote:
A White Hole?

Racist!

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:45 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:
Brendocon wrote:
A White Hole?
Racist!

So what is it?

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:37 pm

A caucasian hole?

Or a United Colors of Benetton hole so everybodies happy and it can also be applied to black holes two to be all inclusive, but also the lack of distinction between the meanings result no difference between a black (now a afro-carribean hole)or white (now caucasian but both to renamed a Benetton hole) ).
So if you actually encounter either hole and need the information required to deal with it in the life or death situation it inevitably initiates you find your version of "the guide" has two entries with completly opposite definitions for the same word

. Thus you're reduced to nothing but a coin toss to decide which one of the two most powerful forces ijn the entire universes you are dealing with. But then doesn't it always?.....

.....Sorry? I blacked out there.

What happened?

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:45 pm

So what is it?

Only joking!

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:22 pm

Ah, I believe we have reached the middle of the conversation.

Karl Lynch wrote:So what is it?

Only joking!

Lister: "Somebody punch him out."

So, why didn't those time-dragon things show up? (immediately regrets asking).

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:00 pm

So what is it?

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:09 pm

Lister: "Somebody punch him out."

So, why didn't those time-dragon things show up?

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:12 pm

So what is it?

...okay I'll stop now

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:16 pm

Please do.

*sigh* So, why didn't those time-dragon things show up?

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:21 pm

Because nobody travelled through time and made a paradox or anything! duh!!

and so back to the important question...

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:35 pm

I just thought that radically altering time would... ah, forget it.

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:38 pm

Autobloke wrote:I just thought that radically altering time would... ah, forget it.

nobody altered time afaik?

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:40 pm

Erasing an entire species from existence would surely qualify.

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:44 pm

Autobloke wrote:Erasing an entire species from existence would surely qualify.

I dont think the daleks were erased from all time, just those ones then and there.

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:51 pm

So you admit that those particular ones were erased? Isn't that altering time? That and undoing death of Cap Jackoff. Although that's more of a serious pseudo mouth to mouth revival.

Post by **Kaylee** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:54 pm

Autobloke wrote:So you admit that those particular ones were erased? Isn't that altering time? That and undoing death of Cap Jackoff. Although that's more of a serious pseudo mouth to mouth revival.

nah coz its happening right now innit?

it could be one of those nasty predestination paradoxes. they were MEANT to go there and rose was meant to become a god (for some reason...) and then save everyone.

anything else would have been altering time ^_^

{hates time travel and the mad mad mad mad mad conundrums it produces}

Autobloke · Post by **Autobloke** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:18 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:{hates time travel and the mad mad mad mad mad conundrums it produces}

Hell, you should have a go at writing timetravel stories. I've got two books of stories written (my current book and the rough sequel), but a timetravel one snuck in there somehow.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:09 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:And BTW my information on the time war losers being wiped out of time came from... REBIS! It must therefore be true. His word is law

When did I say that? I'm not disupting that I said it, although I can't remember saying it, or thinking it beyond what the Doctor said in Dalek, I'm just wondering when I said it.

Oh, and, the TF Time Wars and the Time Wars in Doctor Who are completely different things. One involves a couple of groups of time-travellers battling with their present-day counterparts in an effort to restore another time-traveller to his rightful time, the other involved two groups of time-travellers battling each other in time: which would probably involve such things as pre-empting each other's arrival and setting traps to damage their arrival, resulting in their arrival not occurring in the first place, and so on. A bit like playing chess with both players strengthening their defences where they perceive their opponent pushing toward. Or, on a more popular example, the end bit in Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey, where the heroes are fighting DeNomilus with th gun and cage.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:59 am

Karl Lynch wrote:
Autobloke wrote:So you admit that those particular ones were erased? Isn't that altering time? That and undoing death of Cap Jackoff. Although that's more of a serious pseudo mouth to mouth revival.
nah coz its happening right now innit?

Yeah. It wasn't changed so that those Daleks never existed, because the events they just experienced had still happened... Rose just dissolved the Pepperpots and brought Jack back to life. She didn't make it so that the Daleks weren't there and Jack never died.

it could be one of those nasty predestination paradoxes. they were MEANT to go there and rose was meant to become a god (for some reason...) and then save everyone.

As supported by the Bad Wolf clues that they'd seen prior to Rose (in her own internal timeline) placing them there. Future Rose had already scattered the clues, meaning that she had to go there and do those things in order to be able to scatter the clues so that she'd find her way there to be able to scatter the clues that would lead her back to scatter the clues...

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A black hole sucks time and matter out of the universe. A white hole returns it.

Post by **Kaylee** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:51 am

Rebis wrote:
Karl Lynch wrote:And BTW my information on the time war losers being wiped out of time came from... REBIS! It must therefore be true. His word is law
When did I say that? I'm not disupting that I said it, although I can't remember saying it, or thinking it beyond what the Doctor said in Dalek, I'm just wondering when I said it.

i think it was when we were talking about father day?