Good luck Liverpool.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:38 am

i have to say, even though football isn't my normal religion, that was a bloody great game last night!!

way to go liverpool! hope they fix the rules so they can go back next year!

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 26, 2005 8:48 am

I bet Owen H is 'good in training'...

There is an MUFC $occerball Galaxy Kicker's fan in my office who is claiming that last night was not as good a comeback as theirs in 99.

er 1-0 down

3-0 down

its not difficult is it? Oh! But they won on penalties, so apparently it doesn't count.

He is also claiming Dudek was 4 ft off his line at one point during the penalties.

STFU.

Obfleur · Post by **Obfleur** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:17 am

Some people just can be happy for other peoples succes

Congratulations Liverpool (and Hound

).

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:29 am

I think both comebacks had an air of Fantasy about it. scoring 3 is of course more, but we know football isnt about quantity, were not American now are we?

Both games strike me as impposible wins.

Did anyone notice just hoe far off the Line Jezzy was?

"So Gerrard you must be staying at Anfield now?"
-"Ermmm...."
haha

Oh well, well done Liverpool, I am truly happy for you!!
one of the best footbal games I have ever seen! - jaw dropping

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:09 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:I think both comebacks had an air of Fantasy about it. scoring 3 is of course more, but we know football isnt about quantity, were not American now are we?

er...

i think quantifying come backs does have something to do with quantity actually? Not to mention the seeming differences in quality between the teams in both cases. Liverpools was evidently better and more unlikley on paper.

Oh, and yes, you are American now. ha ha.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:17 am

they had 45 mins to score 3 goals

United had 2 min to score 2

Liverpool scored 3 in 6 mins was it?

I belive the ratios are similar? and thus equally fantasy like...

Osku · Post by **Osku** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:20 am

Best First wrote:He is also claiming Dudek was 4 ft off his line at one point during the penalties.

STFU.

But he clearly was about 4ft off his lin for Milan's second shooter (Pirlo) -> penalty kick should have been done again. Why can't it be mentioned?

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:20 am

ha ha - keep telling yourself that mate.

coming back from 3-0 down agaisnt what is alledgedly the best defence in the world is clearly a step ahead.

Its not diminishing what Man U achieved, 'pool just went one better, and fair ***ing play to them for doing it.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:29 am

I never claimed one was better then another, I said they were both fantasy.

both games reaked of the impossible - if you want to say that Liverpools win last night was 'better' then it most likely is, but not by much.

As for Jezzy being 4ft off the line, he deff was, even the ITV commentators were surprised the goal was allowed to stand. - Im glad it did.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:31 am

Dudek was well off his line for one of the pens, Pirlo I think as Osku said. Sky Sports replay showed it pretty clearly, but the commentators were too busy going on about what a great save it was to note the fact.

Also feel it was a bit harsh on Milan that Shevchenko's goal got disallowed, as it was borderline and I don't think any lino has got reflexes quick enough to know it was offside. Yeah, it shouldn't have been given, but I don't think too much of an argument could have been made if it was.

Happy for Liverpool, but I'd be pretty aggreived if I was connected to Milan. Also looks like Michael Owen gave a few "how to win penalties" lessons to his team mates...

Scoring two goals in injury time (both from corners) when you're 1-0 down is one thing. It involves pressuring for an equaliser knowing you'll take them to extra time if you get it... the second one came off the momentum from it and was a bonus.

Being 3-0 down and effectively buried, but managing to level it is another thing entirely.

To clarify: You're 1-0 down with time running out. You know that scoring another will bring you level and force extra time.
You're 3-0 down. You're still under heavy pressure and are lucky it's not 5. You know that if you score another, you still have to score two more after that and hope not to concede.

It's a pressure/belief thing. Liverpool's comeback is more impressive, considering most of their players are mediocre (no offense, but it's true). They could have caved and gotten slaughtered and nobody would have been surprised. They had been written off by half time. The Man Utd game, everybody knew there was a chance they could level it.

Ergo, Liverpool's win is a more impressive comeback.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:56 am

true I agree.

United 2nd came off the back of "bollox, we had that won, now its extra-time.... [composite word including 'f*ck'] now we lost"

Where as Liverpool were never expected to score 3 against AC milan.

Out of interest, anyone know what the odds were for 3-3 at full time?

Osku · Post by **Osku** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:59 am

Brendocon wrote:Dudek was well off his line for one of the pens, Pirlo I think as Osku said. Sky Sports replay showed it pretty clearly, but the commentators were too busy going on about what a great save it was to note the fact.

Also feel it was a bit harsh on Milan that Shevchenko's goal got disallowed, as it was borderline and I don't think any lino has got reflexes quick enough to know it was offside. Yeah, it shouldn't have been given, but I don't think too much of an argument could have been made if it was.

Happy for Liverpool, but I'd be pretty aggreived if I was connected to Milan. Also looks like Michael Owen gave a few "how to win penalties" lessons to his team mates...

The game was entertaing for an objective watcher, but good game it wasn't. Liverpool played about 10 good minutes, and won. Respect for showing up for the game after the first half and getting back from 3-0, but otherwise not. Milan's performance was overall better, but losing the lead was something I didn't think to be possible.

The game sort of left a bad taste in my mouth to be honest. The referee had a bad day, and the assistant referee wasn't good either.

-The situation where ball touched Milan defender hand -> no penalty kick -> 2-0 from counter strike. Too bad they didn't show a proper replay.
-Shevchenko's goal flagged as offside
-Hyypia not getting carded for taking down Kaka, when he was the lowest Liverpool man. Red card?
-Assistant referee lowering the flag (offside) when referee didn't notice -> Liverpool got a throw -> 3-2 goal.
-Penalty kick Gerrard got for Liverpool. People can't seem to make up their minds if he was kicked in the ankle or taken down with hands.

Possibly a right decision, but shouldn't it have been a red card for Milan, if it was worth penalty kick?

Otherwise those mistakes were quite evenly divided, but Dudek stealing (don't know the correct term) in the second penalty kick honestly pissed me off, as it was so clear. It's not possible that referee didn't notice that.

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:02 am

when he came off his line by about 4 ft at least there was a Ref standing by the right hand post watching and said nothing...

Ah well them scousers need somthing to be happy about!

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:12 am

Hmm, I was positive AC Milan would win (even bet on them) on account of prevous Liverpool matches I have seen this year (second with Juventus, first with Chelsea). They had really good defence, but couldn't do anything in the forward. It was especially irritating against Chelsea, when Hyppia and co. were taking the ball from Roman's boys with ease and then they just gave it back to them. And Milan, though without win in the last three plays in Serie A, I was sure could score at least one goal, and then take a control of the situation, like they usually do.

The only thing I was surprised in the first half was that to the crappy attack (Baros is weak, really) Liverpool added crappy defense.

I was like

around 60 minute. Really, like a different team. But later, Milan has dominated the game again, but I think they were loosing faith they can pull this through, and by the last penalty you could see in Schevchenko's eyes, he didn't believe they could win.

I didn't win any money because of that, but have seen a great match with incredible comeback. I don't know which one was better that or United's from 1999. I know though which was more devastating, with me being Bayern fan at all.

Being positive Milan would win, I only hoped that it wouldn't be because of Dudek screwing something in the end, like sometimes happened. Your media would eat him alive if Traore hadn't stopped Schevcenko's shot around 70 minute. Glad it didn't happen, and later he was one of the heroes. Good for you, Jurek.

During Pirlo's penalty, Dudek jumped towrds him before the Italian hit the ball, and then to the right. I too was surprised they didn't repeat it.

Schevchenko's was off-side and I think referee was right then. What I don't know is how Gattuso brought down Gerrard. I haven't seen him using his arm, so either it was telekinesis or the Italians can even fool the cameras now.

Incredible evening.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:15 am

Anybody else stunned by the fact that Djimi Traore has a CL winners medal? I mean seriously now...

Impactor returns 2.0 · Post by **Impactor returns 2.0** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:45 am

yes and Dudek! - that blagged double save at the end was pretty nutty tho!

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 26, 2005 1:50 pm

Rafa comes across really well here:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Sto ... 70,00.html

Osku · Post by **Osku** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:08 pm

About next year's CL, and Liverpool not having a place there. Do I have this right so far?

UEFA: 4 teams maximum from one country, FA decides what teams go through .
FA: 4 best in Premier -> in next year's Champions League. Liverpool not among the 4 best.
-> no place for Liverpool in CL.

Out of curiosity. What are they actually proposing? Whose place they want? English team (which would be Everton, yes?) or some else country?

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:30 pm

England have been allocated four "automatic qualification" slots for next year's competition (the use of the term automatic does imply that there's a non-automatic way of getting in, but that's by the by)

The FA decided at the beginning of the season that these slots would go to the top four teams in the Premiership (Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd and Everton, as it finished).

The real problem comes in that the FA made a statement earlier this year saying that, if Liverpool won the Cup, then it wouldn't make a difference to the automatic slots, but they would request an extra one.

Why is this a problem? Because last year, when the question was asked, they made a statement saying that if an English club won the competition and finished outside the qualification places, they would go through automatically and the fourth placed league team would go into the UEFA Cup.

Ergo confusion.

Is it worth noting that the World Cup holders don't qualify automatically anymore, either? As we had the bizarre situation in 2002 where Germany lost to Brazil in the final, but as hosts qualify automatically for 2006 whilst Brazil have to go through the groups.

Bizarreness.

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:40 pm

why the heck don't world cup winners quatomatically qualify?

stupid

Osku · Post by **Osku** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:49 pm

Brendocon wrote:The real problem comes in that the FA made a statement earlier this year saying that, if Liverpool won the Cup, then it wouldn't make a difference to the automatic slots, but they would request an extra one.

Why is this a problem? Because last year, when the question was asked, they made a statement saying that if an English club won the competition and finished outside the qualification places, they would go through automatically and the fourth placed league team would go into the UEFA Cup.

Ergo confusion.

Um, still a bit confused. Last year's FA answer, before or after the season? FA decisions still state that 4 best of Premier go through, yes?

So FA is trying to get the fifth place for English team? Nice.

I was under impression that World Cup winners didn't actually gain from automatic qualification being one reason for the change. Lack of serious matches making preparation for the next tournament more difficult. I could remember wrong though. And while that may actually be true for Brazil and WC 2006. I suppose Greece wouldn't mind a straight qualification for Euro 2008.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:57 pm

Osku wrote:Um, still a bit confused. Last year's FA answer, before or after the season? FA decisions still state that 4 best of Premier go through, yes?

Sorry. Both decisions were announced at around February/March, if I remember.

So, March last year: "If an English team win it and finish outside the top four, they qualify and the 4th placed team doesn't"
This year: "If Liverpool win it, we're not giving them one of the normal four slots, and it'll be upto UEFA to give us another one if they want to."

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:10 pm

Osku wrote:Out of curiosity. What are they actually proposing? Whose place they want? English team (which would be Everton, yes?) or some else country?

Like Brend said, FA has to choose between Everton (4rd in Premiership) or Liverpool (Champions League winner), because no country can have more than four* teams in CL. Couple of years ago same situation was in Spain, whose first four teams from their league qualify into CL. Real Madrid has won CL, but finished fifth in Primiera Division. Spanish football federation chose Real and 4th team in Primiera Division (Real Zaragoza, I think) had to play in UEFA Cup.

* In theory, because seeing as FA has chosen Everton, UEFA will probably give in and let Liverpool play in CL as fifth English team.

This has also impact on teams from other countries. All teams who are playing in CL in certain year are put in order which is based on points gained for their performances in previous seasons. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it goes like this:
-First 16 don't need to play the qualifying rounds and they get directly to the group stage.
-Teams from places 17-32 are seeded in third qualifying stage.
-Next 20 or so are seeded in second qualifying round, etc.
As far as I know, Fenerbahce Stambul, winner of Turkish league, is currently 16th in this ranking. So they can start Champions League at group stage. But, if Liverpool is allowed to participate, then as a CL winer 'pool is automatically placed at the top of the ranking, thus Fenerbahce is pushed down to 17th, and into third qualifying round. Before yesterday's match Fenerbahce fans were shown and they hoped AC Milan would win so their team could play in CL's group stage for sure.

Osku · Post by **Osku** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:13 pm

Brendocon wrote:Sorry. Both decisions were announced at around February/March, if I remember.

So, March last year: "If an English team win it and finish outside the top four, they qualify and the 4th placed team doesn't"
This year: "If Liverpool win it, we're not giving them one of the normal four slots, and it'll be upto UEFA to give us another one if they want to."

Ah. Got it now, I think. FA made a decision/statement last year, but didn't put it in their rules. And now they are asking for an extra slot from UEFA, which would in reality mean taking one qualification place from some other country? From my non-English point of view it's hard to symphatise that.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:47 pm

Yeah, they basically said last year "if this happens, we'll do it this way" and it didn't matter because all the English clubs got knocked out. This year they were asked again and said something different (and upset the people who remembered what they said last year), and now they've actually got to stick with it.

I don't think the FA are specifically asking for a slot to be taken away from another country, but more for UEFA to give them an extra one.

When it was just open to the league winners, I dare say they often got a situation where they ended up with an extra team from one country, so I can't imagine it messing the draw up too much.

Though personally I think four teams being allowed into something called the Champions League is taking the piss. Same goes for three. And two for that matter.

Osku · Post by **Osku** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:02 pm

Brendocon wrote:I don't think the FA are specifically asking for a slot to be taken away from another country, but more for UEFA to give them an extra one.

And how that happens without taking a slot from someone else?

My apologies for Liverpool fans for taking this thread off topic.

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:07 pm

2 I can accept as the winner's may not have won their domestic league. But the current situation just takes the p### as much as I'm pleased to see Everton go in this year.

By the according the the evening standard UFEA have said no to giving an extra place to Liverpool.

Post by **Best First** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:15 pm

Jetfire wrote:2 I can accept as the winner's may not have won their domestic league.

and what garuntees they will come second? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:32 pm

Just rememeber, a European cup win doesn't stop a scouser being a scouser in some peoples eyes:

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Thu May 26, 2005 9:34 pm

Osku wrote:And how that happens without taking a slot from someone else?

I don't know how UEFA's qualifying algorithms work, so I can't give a definitive answer. BUT I don't see much difference between this scenario and the situation before they started letting runners-up in.

Think back to how it was before. One team from each country, right? But if the holders didn't win their league, they were still allowed in. Which gave one country an extra slot, which meant that UEFA ended up with an extra team to fit into the tournament. I doubt they coped with it back then by taking a slot away from another country, so I really don't see why they'd need to do that now.

Liverpool have known since March that they needed to finish fourth in the Prem to be allowed a slot in next year's competition, regardless of last night's match, but they still couldn't get the points needed. Everton played the entire season knowing that fourth would see them into the CL, which they managed. I might not agree with the notion that the champions don't automatically qualify, but they can't go moving the goalposts after the season's finished.