The Secret of Homosexuality

[Predabot]

Lets do this properly. First of all, I'd like to say that I have nothing against homosexuals and this is nothing but idiocy/curiosity.

When I was a kid I had never heard of it, until people suddenly started using it as a curse-word, over and over again. And I didn't of course truly understand what it meant before I got a bit older.

Now, I have never acctually met an out of the closet homosexuall, that I know of, the closest thing I've come is meeting a bisexuall guy that one of my buddies know, we didn't talk much, since really, I don't talk to strangers wich doesn't appear to have the same interests in the slightest as me, or whom I will only meet once for 2 hours tops. This was only 2 months ago, or something like that.

So, I can honestly say that the only homosexual individual I've ever interacted in some way to is Karl Lynch. Also to note, is that even tho he had (I think?? Amnesiac) several topics about cross-dressing and cute boys and what not I didn't acctually get that he was gay until after 6 months on Transfans.

As such, it has become in my small and limited mind something almost mythical, and hence warrants further study.

Now let's see..

Apparently humans is not the only sexually reproducing life-forms who display homosexuality in some form. It has been reported among several strains of vertebrates, such as fish, Mammals (of course, but many types) , and birds, that I have heard of.

This would suggest that it's not a sign of social, cultural choices/traditions, or some form of 'mental disorder' wich the 'distinguished' medical science of old presumed.

A note that I my self has made is that all these lifeforms are vertebrates, and that as such they possess a somewhat more advanced neurological system than most other forms on life on earth. The fish for instance, (I cant recall what kind they were) are the least intelligent of these vertebrates, but does indeed seem capable of homosexuality.

A further note is that these fish apparently didn't seem to want to mate with the current females of it's species, and as such apparently 'died out' as there was no more observations of homosexual fish. Should of course be viewed with prejudice as further studies was apparently not implemented.

As for the mammals, well there there's tons of examples, I will simply tell you of one that a friend of mine witnessed himself. He was visiting a friend in the country who had a farm, with cows. And while having a chat with him by the cow-fence, one of the cows suddenly jumps up and starts riding another of the cows in! Lesbian apparently. The bull was of course immensly infuriated by this and immediately charges the two of them and separated them rather violently.

As for the birds, well apparently the swedish zoo-park Kolmården has had a pair of homosexual penguins, who had the brains to during mating season one of them mated with a penguin-bird (heh) and had an egg. Shortly afterwards they chased away mama-penguin and rased the egg on their own. Rather well too apparently.

This would suggest that only vertebrates with a higher intelligence can continuosly reproduce and carry on their genes when homosexual. Or that it's a case of 'multi-sexually oriented genes', meaning that there's a bisexuality factor, attraction to other's of your species of your own gender that sometimes allows a 'pure-homosexuality gene' to be evolved and transferred to other generations.

It has also been reported not so long ago in a german zoo about 6 male penguins, showing homosexual traits, and that further study will be held.
http://transfans.tfarchive3.com/phpBB2/ ... t=penguins

To my knowledge there hasn't been any reports of homosexual reptiles, but since I'm ill informed, the matter is no doubt the opposite.

Now, what could the cause of homosexuality possibly be? Many things, to me, would sugest it's a genetic trait, highly common in the planets collective sexually reproducing life-forms gene-pool. When there is sex, there is likely to be individuals trying to mate with those of it's own gender. But why does such a trait exist? Is it all just explainable to mistakes and errors of some kind? And the evolution of higher intelligence among mammals and other life-forms (other vertebrates such as birds, some octopusses are rather intelligent) has lead to a new way of finding attractive traits among partners? Hence bisexuality, homosexuality.

I say thee nay. I believe that it's a purely genetical phenomenon in it's core, and that it's perhaps a case of environment too. Many genes of course requires the proper external stimulance to be activated. Perhaps in the form of too much male/female hormones or some other kind of bio-chemical factor. That may perhaps explain why it doesn't appear in any way as if a high grade of children to homosexuals evolve homosexuality, it may of course also be the case as with any other genes of recessive and active genes, and that it might need 2 recessive genes to make an active and so on.

Whatever it may be, it's still a part of our society and ourselves, and I say that warrants studies. It may perhaps teach us many things about how ours and other beings attraction-centers work, and of our entire evolution.

Thank you for you patience and time people. I look forward to hearing any input or debate about a subject that highly intrigues me.

[Best First]

you seem half way to making a point?

[Hound]

and your point is?

it's just life Pred, it doesn't need scientific explanation.

[Predabot]

you seem half way to making a point?

Yes, I'm only half-done or there-around. I'm editing as we speak.

and your point is?
t's just life Pred, it doesn't need scientific explanation.

Science is life. Hence life needs a scientific explanation. We must always strive forward to satisfy or never-ending thirst for knowledge. Carry on.

[Best First]

and your point is?

it's just life Pred, it doesn't need scientific explanation.

i have no issue with study in the name of understanding, as long as it is not used to push bull**** prejudicial agenda's.

[Autobloke]

One of my best mates is bi - I've known him since 1986 (we went to school together and also worked at the same company. I still go and visit him since I moved away two years ago). He's also a transvestite. Neither of which bothers me at all. He does annoy me with his general apathy on movies, Transformers and other stuff, but his sexuality is not an issue.
Why are we discussing this? I can't see that this is anything but a chance to copy a textbook on animals onto the forum. Is there a valid point to this topic? If there is, I'll be glad to post my further veiws. If not, let's go for pizza or something more constructive.

[Hound]

Mmmm pizza

Far more interesting than substituting ignorance with scientific bull.

[Autobloke]

Topic hijacked. Again.
I must stop doing that. Sorry.

[Predabot]

I'd love to go for some pizza. But the point of the topic is to discuss the why's & wherefores of homosexuality for those that are interested/have thought about this and many other things philosophically. (i.e only me mostly it would seem..)

And to go in depth, to hear views and ideas until we can honestly say: "yes, this is perhaps why."

Far more interesting than substituting ignorance with scientific bull.

I am only ignorant because I am not properly/ informed tutored yet. If it annoys you, then please do something about it.

And science is only bull when it's not science, but idiotic misconceptions that no-one bothers to correct.

I'd also like to make a small reminder that my first post is still being written and improved on. Please have a read if you some reason may find my ramblings interesting in the slightest. Give in to your curiosity people.

[Autobloke]

I'd love to go for some pizza. But the point of the topic is to discuss the why's & wherefores of homosexuality for those that are interested/have thought about this and many other things philosophically. (i.e only me mostly it would seem..)

And to go in depth, to hear views and ideas until we can honestly say: "yes, this is perhaps why."

But does it NEED explaining? Why not start a topic that discusses why some people are straight (I hate that term - it implys that homosexuals etc are 'broken') or bi-sexual? Don't just point out the gay community like it needs to be justified.

[Predabot]

Does the reason why the grass grows needs explaining? Perhaps not at a first glance, but if you think more indepth about it, it might help cultivating it in desolate areas or creating medicine helping people allergic to it.

And sure, why not start a topic about why people are straight? Why it is necessary with attraction between different genders in order to stimulate something that might be more effective reproduction or what ever. Why does genders exist? Is it simply because of a fluke that it might create more genetic differences and mutations and speeds up evolution?

All good questions wich of course warrants topics, inquiries and discussions. I simply chose homosexuality as since I am not homosexual I do not fully understand it, and hence it just out of some cosmic coincidence sparked my semi-scientific curiosity. What I do not undestand I must study and strive to understand. For then my knowledge, and my subsequent personality, will be improved.

My first post is complete, contemplate it's information if you have desire to do so.

[Best First]

posting your first post when its not actually finished seems rather useless as well.

At the moment this topic may as well be entitled 'Something about Gays'.

people are gay because they are attracted to people of the same sex. what more do you need to know?

[Kaylee]

Could you possibly go and rephrase your original post in the form of a question or discussion topic, rather than a series of bullet point statements?

Other than that I've posted at exhaustive length on current psychological understandings of homosexuality.

Firstly you're approaching it from the perspective that it is something other than heterosexuality, when in fact both are pigeon holes created by society. All people exist on a spectrum, merely varying how far along it they are.

According to current thinking, only about 10-20% of the population are gay or straight, the rest are bisexual to one degree or another.

Homosexuality is generally considered to have a genetic predisposition but also to have its roots in circumstances and upbringing, studies with twins produced interesting results.

[Ultimate Weapon]

Homosexuality is generally considered to have a genetic predisposition but also to have its roots in circumstances and upbringing, studies with twins produced interesting results.

Is that the nature vs nurture arguement? Which I believe that nurture wins almost entirely.

[Kaylee]

Homosexuality is generally considered to have a genetic predisposition but also to have its roots in circumstances and upbringing, studies with twins produced interesting results.

Is that the nature vs nurture arguement? Which I believe that nurture wins almost entirely.

Which no study has ever proven to any meaningful degree.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

10-20% of the population are straight? - I would have thought more then that? (I understand you mean the rest are either BI, or gay but havent found out or admited yet)

Either way, how I see it, some ppl like the same sex, some dont, some like both voila.

What it has to do with science, bugger all, its just the way things are.

[Kaylee]

yep. there's no magic line you go over before which you are str8, over which you are gay and exactly on the middle you're bi. its like a spectrum of colour, and only those at either extreme end could be said to be truly str8 or gay. about 80% of the population are in the middle. I consider myself gay but also understand that I'm in the middle 80%

[Ultimate Weapon]

Homosexuality is generally considered to have a genetic predisposition but also to have its roots in circumstances and upbringing, studies with twins produced interesting results.

Is that the nature vs nurture arguement? Which I believe that nurture wins almost entirely.

Which no study has ever proven to any meaningful degree.

One case in Canada I learned about in my psychology of sex class. During a laser circumcision an infant boy's penis was burned off. The parents psychologist suggested to dress the boy as a girl and feed him regularly estrogen hormones. The experiment was a disaster as the natural testosterone levels made it difficult to act as a girl naturally. The Dr thought that upbringing could determine sex rather than biology.

[Predabot]

posting your first post when its not actually finished seems rather useless as well.

My first post is to me hideously long, and difficult for my feeble mind to reproduce in a quality manor. I did not want to take the chance of it all being spoiled by a system-hangup, wich I have been having lately, or forever if you'd like.

I made a decision to post what I had written at that precise moment, since I did not feel that all the information without the last piece of context, or wich term would be correct, would be completely useless.

I am sorry if you felt that indeed this information was indeed completely useless on any, within or beyond human capacity, calculatable level. If this was the fact, and that fact angered or disturbed you in any way I sincerely ask for your forgiveness, because it was honestly in this case not my intent.

At the moment this topic may as well be entitled 'Something about Gays'.

Possibly. If I wanted to be even more vague than I no doubt already am.

people are gay because they are attracted to people of the same sex. what more do you need to know?

"Why is the sky blue? Because it reflects the colour of the ocean? Why is the ocean blue then? And last I checked it doesn't look blue all the time or everywhere?" And so on..the human mind is curious.

And there will always be things that it strive to know, always a new horizon. I am a human, therefore I am curious, and I cannot stop being so, since it is in my nature. Why that is so, is a very good question, has it to do with the need for assimilating usefull information in order improve my survival potential? Who knows.

Why are they attracted to people of the same sex then? Entirely because of some kind of instinctual magnetism to the other person that they feel?

"He/she likes Steven Seagal movies like me, therefore we have fun. Therefore he/she is nice. Therefore we must do the most fun thing there is."

Where does that thought come from? Why is that? Is it entirely because of the mind? Is the mind entirely a product of evolution? Does evolution find these behaviours/thoughts/whatever-I'm-confused-as-ussual? Does it improve our reproduction, such beings wich can think thoughts of attraction is favored by evolution?

You tell me. That's some things I'd like to know, and hear what others might think of.

Yeesh, my brain is overheating from all this high use of it's more advanced functions, I'm sweating like a pig. Or it could just be the thermostat....

[Predabot]

*reads Karlys and other's posts after only reading his own arse-long post*

Now we're getting somewhere. Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

[Ultimate Weapon]

"Why is the sky blue? Because it reflects the colour of the ocean? Why is the ocean blue then? And last I checked it doesn't look blue all the time or everywhere?" And so on..the human mind is curious.

Actualy the world is a one dimensional, black and white upside down place. The picture is interpretted in the lens of the eye and flipped right side up in our brains.

[Kaylee]

Karl...

{long, drawn out Kif-style sigh}

[Impactor returns 2.0]

One case in Canada I learned about in my psychology of sex class. During a laser circumcision an infant boy's penis was burned off. The parents psychologist suggested to dress the boy as a girl and feed him regularly estrogen hormones. The experiment was a disaster as the natural testosterone levels made it difficult to act as a girl naturally. The Dr thought that upbringing could determine sex rather than biology.

I shouldnt laugh but that has to be the most ****** up thing ive heard lately!

[Predabot]

about 80% of the population are in the middle. I consider myself gay but also understand that I'm in the middle 80%

But you cant really possibly know that your truly really in the 80% as opposed to the 10% who's either 'gay'(now that is a therm that I hate, since not all gay men are always so darn gay and happy. It misinforms any and everyone that might hear it, and be dumb enough to misunderstand) or 'straight' can you? Sure the ods are higher indeed that your just a little bit BS without knowing it.

So, Ultimate Weapon, is this thing with the laser considered proof in some circles that genes determin sexuality more than environment/upbringing then? It seems as something of a hint I must say. More info please! Brain must be fed! Over-heated!

[Kaylee]

Firstly I know im technically bi because ive made out with girls before, and whilst I consider it not my thing had no great problem with the business itself.

Secondly the young man you cite as being dressed as a woman after a problem with surgery is now dead. He killed himself because his life was utterly screwed up, I'd ask people show a little respect.

Thirdly with the above example you're confusing gender identity and sex with sexual orientation, which are different things.

[Predabot]

Yes, yes, this sounds correct. More, more.

OFF TOPIC!:

And Karl: You lucky daawg! Giving in to things like this, realising, being bi and all no doubt increases your chances for the amount of fun you can have. Sounds smashing man, really I aint kidding.

Now...what's it like to be in the arms of a tender(? Well, I wouldn't really know...) woman compared to a strong, powerfull man?

[Ultimate Weapon]

So, Ultimate Weapon, is this thing with the laser considered proof in some circles that genes determin sexuality more than environment/upbringing then? It seems as something of a hint I must say. More info please! Brain must be fed! Over-heated!

No this is about gender, not genetic makeup which determines what you look like, and your racial ethnicity. This is a classic case of nature vs nurture, wereas upbringing can often have no relevance to sex identity. The point it has to the thread is that you can dress up a boy in girls clothes and feed him tooti frutti ice cream all day and he can still be straight when he grows up.

[Kaylee]

If you honestly think being in the closet for 5 years, loathing yourself and wanting to destroy your life is lucky then you're very misguided.

I tried it with girls more to please my father than anyone else, who still thinks im str8. I tried it with 2 girls for multiple wrong reasons and have since learnt what those reasons were and corrected them.

I would now not consider another relationship with a woman, which is no reflection on the lovely and exceedingly charming people in question. One at least is certainly a fantastic person who really deserves wonderful things in her life, I'm just sorry I screwed up so much.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Ultimate Weapon]

*snip*

I'm very glad that you have seen the errors of your ways. Closet homosexuality can be very destructive in certain cases. I have had experience with this behaviour and it ain't pretty. It led to a mental breakdown of my sister, and my mom almost killing herself. Society needs to encourage gays to come out, like in the parades and such. Just so that people who don;t know can find out who they really are. Instead of all the games, that people play.

[Predabot]

But I thought you was happy now? And that youre happy since you know your mostly homosexual, but a pinch of bi so you can snuggle with your girly mates when you are all dead-drunk and not feel bad about it?

And dang, that of course didn't sound very fun, with wanting to destroy yourself. I'm guessing that might be the situation for most homosexuals when they come out, but I hope society will improve it's view and horizons on this. Luckily, to me it looks as if it has, in baby-steps, for the last 30 years or so.

ON TOPIC: Where's Rebis anyways? He's sorely needed in this topic, his views are ussually intelligent, and his knowledge is immense Go teachers.