The Secret of Homosexuality

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Society needs to encourage gays to come out, like in the parades and such. Just so that people who don;t know can find out who they really are. Instead of all the games, that people play.

Society needs to accept homosexuality so that Gay ppl dont have to hold circus shows.

My GF has alot of gay friends, her children have grown up around gay ppl, and they trully dont have any predjudices against gay ppl in any shape or form.
I think ppl of our generation are only just begginging to understand what it all truly means for gay ppl.

One day no one will ask if your straight gay bi, there wont be parades to stamp out my sexuality.

no one will care what your sexual preference is, and how it effects you, or your children, or legal matters.

It starts with the new generation of children this generation, a world of no sexual predjudices...

[Kaylee]

Youre absolutey right imo Mark.

[Professor Smooth]

While we're discussing this, I have a question. Is being gay about love, about the sex, or about both? I honestly don't mean to be crude and I'm truly trying to avoid offending anybody here, but here goes. With gay/lesbian porn, it seems to me that many of the actors/actresses are doing it just for a paycheck. Does having sex with someone of the same sex make someone gay? On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you love someone of the same sex but have no desire to have a physical relationship with them, are you gay? Is someone only gay when they have both the love for people of the same sex and the desire for a physical relationship?

I apologize if I've offended anyone with this question.

[Guest]

I doubt that will have offended anyone that you were worried about offending.

In fact, if for those questions you replaced 'if you' with 'if I', then you'd be a perfectly heathly individual who's pondering their own sexuality.

[Professor Smooth]

In fact, if for those questions you replaced 'if you' with 'if I', then you'd be a perfectly heathly individual who's pondering their own sexuality.

Thought that much was fairly obvious.

[Denyer]

several topics about cross-dressing

Cross-dressing has pretty much zilch to do with homosexuality... most transvestites aren't gay.

what could the cause of homosexuality possibly be?

Brains recognise shapes, textures and—leaping ahead to more advanced patterns—intimacy. It seems likely there's genetic disposition towards finding particular groups attractive, but that attraction can't be reduced simply to either breeding or environment.

Beyond that, I've always found it rather hard to work out what people make such a fuss about—same sex relationships have existed throughout history, in spite of attempts to steer people into marriages that benefited their immediate family. They've been celebrated by cultures widely regarded as having founded civilisation as we known it (Greeks, Romans)... one of the biggest stumbling blocks was Christianity.

life needs a scientific explanation

The tendency of humans in general to ask questions and make leaps of knowledge isn't always a positive one, particularly at the point people start trying to fit facts to what they think they've already worked out, rather than theory to fact.

experiment was a disaster as the natural testosterone levels made it difficult to act as a girl naturally

Try for some definition of "act as a girl" if you're going to pull that one out... and most such studies are decades old, cast very firmly in gender as those societies saw it.

you cant really possibly know that your truly really in the 80%

You can say 100% of people are attracted to people. That's as precise as things get. The labels are added because (especially whilst "growing up") people define themselves by what they aren't, and talk up what they are.

Ego is a form of survivability—people set criteria for worth based on themselves. For example, I privilege various forms of academic and freeform learning and have little interest in physical pursuits beyond knowing where to hit people if you really have to.

I think ppl of our generation are only just begginging to understand what it all truly means for gay ppl.

We're generally doing better than our parents' generation, at least.

With gay/lesbian porn

Most porn has little or nothing to do with attraction. Sexuality is about attraction rather than who people are shagging...

[Impactor returns 2.0]

For me, learning about gay ppl has come about in my 20's, im not going to lie, when I was about 18, younger and not as wise, the concept did seem funny, I did use terms like poof, and homo as insults...

But recently ive been with someone who knows alot of gay ppl, and thus iver been friends with more gay ppl then I would have normally.
But even before then, my views had been questioned through TV, etc..

For my parents, they obviously try and keep up with the PC of the times, but from what they were brough up with, it must seem 'wierd' to them.

And to the next generation, my EX GF children, they use the term 'gay' with such simple, yet clean understanding its almost rereshing to see that they hold, nor judge anyone.

I really do think there is hope for a future children, and that hope doesnt come via marchs and such, but education by ourselves. people of our age.

In time I think ppl will look back and tink 'what closet?' did I have to come out of, there was a closet to hide in? how bizzare...

[Autobloke]

Okay, I'm back - my computer died for a bit so I've missed most of the conversation.
Firstly, despite my initial reservations about this being a topic that might just be an exercise in pointing fingers at homosexuals and spouting the usual rhetoric, I apologise to Predabot if I sounded angry - the friend I mentioned earlier was hospitalised by a load of 'gay-bashers' about six months ago and I'm still kind of p***ed off about the whole affair. Don't worry - he's okay now - 'just' a few broken ribs, concussion (which was thought to be a skull fracture - but thankfully wasn't), and a hell of a lot of cuts and bruises.
He doesn't act 'gay' or flamboyant, but these w**kers took a dislike to him when they heard him mention to this girl in a pub that he was gay. They waited for him to come out and then beat the crap out of him.

As for what else has been posted while I was offline:
The sky isn't blue 'cos it reflects the sea - otherwise the sky above a desert would be sand-coloured. I believe it has something to do with the makeup of our atmosphere only allowing certain colours of the visible spectrum - in this case blue. I'm certain Rebis will check this out and correct me if I'm wrong.
The burnt-off penis bloke has been a subject of much discussion worldwide. It had been suggested that he may have had other mental problems besides the obvious stresses from his unfortunate situation, and may have killed himself anyway, even if the whole penis affair hadn't occurred.
I think it was Karl who mentioned about studies with twins. Has there ever been a study on the disparate sexuality of triplets? I always thought that triplets could be a 'control' factor when the stereotypical twin 'abilities' that are continually touted in science are brought up. Would there be such amazing similarites if there were THREE separated children instead of just TWO - that would help to rule out coincedence.

On a final note: I HATE Graham Norton - but I really like Julian Clairy. I have come to this conclusion: It's not 'cos Norton is gay - it's 'cos he's just an annoying prat. However, when I say this, people assume I'm against homosexuality - which obviously I'm NOT. I just don't like annoying PRATS.

[Kaylee]

I hate Graham Norton too. He's just crude, I've never considered that a talent.

[Autobloke]

His annoyingness must be a hinderance to ratings - I turn over to another channel whenever he comes on screen. Same with Jamie Oliver (well, ANY TV chef), Ricky Gevais, and... ooo - MANY other people that get on my t*ts.

[Nebbie]

I seem to remember my psychology textbook saying there had been twin studies about homosexuality, but they weren't large enough to prove much. I think the only conclusion the scientists came to was that there MIGHT be a genetic predispostion to hetero/homo/bisexuality, but that neither genetics nor environment was a sole cause.

[Autobloke]

That's why I suggested studying triplets - to narrow down the certainty.
Although I reckon you just are what you are.

[Nebbie]

Basically.

And the reason for no triplet studies is because identical triplets are very rare, and you have to have identicals for any kind of genetic research.

[Jetfire]

Society needs to encourage gays to come out, like in the parades and such. Just so that people who don;t know can find out who they really are. Instead of all the games, that people play.

Society needs to accept homosexuality so that Gay ppl dont have to hold circus shows.

It doesn't help that a great number of gay people, especially in london, seem intent on holding up the "camp" sterotype. I've worked in a gym with a fair amount of gays people and they all fufiled the sterotype.

Meanwhile. The study in which a Doctor tried to take 2 male twins and bring up one twin as a girl to prove the "Nuture" theory was a really cruel tale in which the Doctor was clearly physco and should not be aloud in society. There was a documentary and several news papera articles either last year or at the start of this one. It showed how cruel the doc was and as his experiment clearly showed the 'girl twin' never really took to being a girl dispite not knowing his origins (and edventually got an operation to get his pensis back-though he edventually committed suicide).

Taking children like that to experiment just to see what sexuality they may or may not be is wrong. Who needs to care about who is or isn't gay?

Anyways ther has been much heavy research into why people are gay. there is no corrilation between genes, background etc etc so there isn't really a reason. Leave them to it I say. I'd rather studies into why some people are hurtful to their partners or cheat on them as that affects people life quality and family life etc etc.

[BB Shockwave]

Just correcting a few things, seeing as I'm biologist...

As for the mammals, well there there's tons of examples, I will simply tell you of one that a friend of mine witnessed himself. He was visiting a friend in the country who had a farm, with cows. And while having a chat with him by the cow-fence, one of the cows suddenly jumps up and starts riding another of the cows in! Lesbian apparently. The bull was of course immensly infuriated by this and immediately charges the two of them and separated them rather violently.

As for the birds, well apparently the swedish zoo-park Kolmården has had a pair of homosexual penguins, who had the brains to during mating season one of them mated with a penguin-bird (heh) and had an egg. Shortly afterwards they chased away mama-penguin and rased the egg on their own. Rather well too apparently.

Both of these, and most of the other sighting of homosexual animals happened either in zoos, or with domesticated animals.

Now, no matter how close zoos try to recreate the animal's normal enviroment, they are not that close to it. Therefore the animals often show behaviour that the ones living in freedom would never show, thus it's not valid for proving a thesis.

With domesticated animals (dogs were reported having homosexual behaviour, in fact my ethology professor was doing a research on this!) the fact is that their genes are so mixed thanks to thousands of years of inbreeding and crossing that they in no way represent normal behaviour of their ancestors.

Truly reproducing homosexual animals weren't found yet amongst mammals and birds yet (to my knowledge).

What WAS found., however, is that dolphins, and many species of primates do exhibit homosexual behaviour in the wildness. These creatures have a very sophisticated social structure, and males often band together for greater success. Some of these strenghten their bonds by having "sex together", but sometimes, like with dolphins they don't do it for the gain or loot, just (seemingly) out friendship.

Homosexual behaviour also happens between cubs (i at least know this happened with cheetahs) when they are maturing and start to discover sexuality, they sometimes try to mate with each other. These animals do not continue this behaviour after they mature, though...


I won't comment on human homosexuality as I'm not knowledgeable in these areas.

[Hound]

It doesn't help that a great number of gay people, especially in london, seem intent on holding up the "camp" sterotype. I've worked in a gym with a fair amount of gays people and they all fufiled the sterotype.

I can assure you that a fair share of straight men fit the 'straight' stereotype too!

Agree in some ways though, some people are naturally effeminate and some people make a concious effort to be that way. But at the end of the day, it's harmless and if it makes them happy, so what?

[Predabot]

It doesn't help that a great number of gay people, especially in london, seem intent on holding up the "camp" sterotype. I've worked in a gym with a fair amount of gays people and they all fufiled the sterotype.

What?? That stereotype acctually exist for real?? I always thought it was some kinda bull-sh*t invented by the tv-media or something.

Taking children like that to experiment just to see what sexuality they may or may not be is wrong. Who needs to care about who is or isn't gay?

Couldn't agree more, the man obviously had a few lose nuts & bolts. However, theoretically I suppose that some people who are uncertain about their sexuality and feels attraction less or more to people of either sex, to know if they really are gay/straight/whatevva-comes-to-your-mind, would like to know.

Anyways ther has been much heavy research into why people are gay. there is no corrilation between genes, background etc etc so there isn't really a reason.

Hmm, are you certain? I think I've seen some other people saying there are hints that both genes & environment affect what sexuality you might evolve, just like everything else in our lives. Rebis himself gave some very interesting facts about how it would seem that human attraction in general might function.

I'd rather studies into why some people are hurtful to their partners or cheat on them as that affects people life quality and family life etc etc.

I agree, all things concerning ourselves and why we do things, sexuality in our social-life in perticular, warrants some research. And surely there must be research about this? I think I've seen several articles about why people cheat and such.

Ah, BB Shockwave, you bring many things to the table that I haven't considered concerning homosexual animals. The mish-mashed genes of domesticated ones, and incorrect environment of zoo-animals. The primate thing is fascinating, since our closest relatives genetically, the Chimpanzees aren't much into it, but the Dwarf-Chimpansees (bonobos?) who are the primates who seemingly have a social-life/structure the most similar to our own, uses sex as a way of maintaining peace and easing up tensions in the pack.

Wereas they all have sex with each other, females with females, males with males, children with children, parents with off-spring. Ginourmous orgies really. Some scientists, apparently believe that our own society is going towards a similar evolution, wereas we are becoming more vegeterian (bonobos don't hunt like normal chimps does) and having an intricate sex-life in society as such. Apparently comes with living in such peace and prosperity I think was one of the theories. Sounds smashin' to me.

[Autobloke]

Sounds smashin' to me.

You WANT sex with your mum!?!
You should only EVER go through that hole once - on the way OUT.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

It doesn't help that a great number of gay people, especially in london, seem intent on holding up the "camp" sterotype. I've worked in a gym with a fair amount of gays people and they all fufiled the sterotype.

I can assure you that a fair share of straight men fit the 'straight' stereotype too!

Agree in some ways though, some people are naturally effeminate and some people make a concious effort to be that way. But at the end of the day, it's harmless and if it makes them happy, so what?

your right, it doesnt directly harm anyone.
I personaly dislike the overtly camp gay ppl.
In life, everyone is different, but then you find some gay ppl behaving exactly the same way as another, im left thinking "just who are you behind that mask" - I instantly switch off.
I geneuninally dislike the attitude that gos with it, its pompus and over bearing, rude and very saracstic. im not sure id like that from anyone.

Its unfortunate to some degree, because for less educated ppl, you say 'gay' and thats the image they think of. what cant be good.

I dont belive the image, is anything other then an act and an image. the need for advertising ones sexuality is surely comming to an end? - at least I hope it is.

for me im like "who cares?" - I dont need a t-shirt saying 'straight' as much as you dont need one saying 'gay' - because I dont care, im only ever gonna meet your persona, so at least give me the real person and not 'generic camp gay guy 356531' ...

[Autobloke]

I personaly dislike the overtly camp gay ppl.

As I said: Graham Norton.
I try to accept them (as I said with Julian Clairy), but their image has nothing to do with real gay people - it seems more like the gaudy show and costume of pantomime. And I HATE pantomime. No jokes about 'He's behind you!' either.
Look at Michael Barrymore - once everyone knew he was gay, he didn't suddenly chuck on a spangly pink jacket and adopt the squeaky sing-song voice that seems to pass for 'celebrity' homosexuals these days. Okay, he's disappeared from the telly now (what with all the 'dead guy in pool' stuff), but I'd rather watch him than Gayham Whoreton - pimping his ass to the masses and making a fool of himself.

[Kaylee]

There's several ideas floating about here I'm going to try and give my views on.

Firstly Mark and Autobloke.

I'm not sure there is the cause and effect you propose. Some men are high pitched and effeminate, the attitudes which they develop which you dislike are probably defence mechanisms because they are effeminate and high-pitched.

The point imo worth making that I'm not sure has come through is that the general public will en masse only accept overly camp homosexuals- as sort of pantomime dames. It's alright having gay guys doing TV shows helping dorky straight men dress better and showing people how to brighten up their living room, but the instant homosexuals are portrayed as normal people who get up, go to work, kiss their lover goodbye and try to take two nice holidays a year while paying for their mortgage and car expenses people start tutting and complaining about how political correctness has put the final nail in the coffin of commonsense, and other garbage.

That goes for both sides of the Atlantic imo.

To address other points- tests have been conducted (I linked and referenced them on here when they were published a couple of years back) demonstrating certain physical differences in the brain between homosexuals and heterosexuals. It proves nothing but lends credence to the concept that homosexuality has some genetic predisposition. Similarly the weight of psychological research, of which you can open up any basic neuropsychology textbook and read, demonstrates that homosexuality and the concepts of gender identity and physical gender all get muddled up and messed up in the minds of the general population.

i.e. all gay guys are effeminate.

Not so, some straight guys are effeminate. Some gay guy are very butch. Sexuality is something that exists on a similar scale, with no clear lines or borders around it- hence the difficulty Stuart highlighted in trying to establish precisely who is what.

To return to the original post I responded to, I tend to find overly camp guys threatening. Some of them are sweet and genuinely nice, others aren't. I tend to find the loudness and brashness of some of them, which would go for camp str8 guys too, to be something that I should avoid in case I get on the wrong side of it.

That's probably also to do with my defence mechanisms. To most people's first impression I'm a wise-cracking straight guy, despite a rather feminine appearance. Once I feel comfortable however that mask tends to descend and I'm far more of a sweet and very easily hurt individual, probably more in keeping with my looks.

[Autobloke]

I have no problem with most 'camp' people - there's a guy who used to run a pub near me that had what could be described as an extremely effeminate voice. He was the nicest bloke you could ever meet. And he ran the pub with his partner, who you'd never guess was gay - but didn't fall into the 'butch' camp (if you'll excuse the pun).
I was mostly saying that people like Graham Norton seem to ramp up the camp factor for the shows they do - which can be as annoying as an overly happy and excited person.
Then you have Julian Clairy (sorry I keep using the same two people as examples, but they are almost diametric opposites of the type of people I'm talking about), he may have the make-up and bright clothes, but he's more understated and easy on the ear. If I had to choose between the two as to who I would have as a partner, it would definately be Julian.
I just wonder how Graham Norton would act if he'd never started in television, because he just sometimes strikes me as fake on occasion.

[Professor Smooth]

Personally, I tend to not dislike people for doing things like Norton. I just dislike when they do these things.

[Guest]

Anyways ther has been much heavy research into why people are gay. there is no corrilation between genes, background etc etc so there isn't really a reason.

Hmm, are you certain? I think I've seen some other people saying there are hints that both genes & environment affect what sexuality you might evolve, just like everything else in our lives. Rebis himself gave some very interesting facts about how it would seem that human attraction in general might function.

I did?

[sprunkner]

I felt the need to throw in my two cents...

I grew up in Southern California, which tends to have some serious clashes between extreme conservatives and extreme liberals. Like Mark, I tended to use gay as a put-down, esp. in junior high. Of course, that all changed when my best friend told me he was gay when we were fifteen. Watching the agony he went through, the rejection by his family and many of his friends, the difficulty he had forming partnerships and being rejected by many of his friends (even me-- not proud of the way I acted either), I was convinced that this was not his choice to be gay.

So I can't ever, even though many people of my beliefs do, come down on the side of homosexuality as a sin or abomination. People just are the way they are. I'm sure that homosexual men can enjoy sex with women and have good relationships with women, but their overriding desires will be for men.

This is interesting also as several of my friends have told me that their parents got married although their dad was gay. It was an attempt to remain in concordance with the church's teachings. This apparently doesn't work out most of the time. A lot of them ended up getting divorced and causing a lot of pain and heartbreak.

I think this is one of the most difficult things about homosexuals in our society. A lot of faiths don't seem to recognize what really goes on in someone's life and how difficult it can make things to want to be gay and be Catholic, Mormon, or born-again Christian.

[Denyer]

A lot of faiths don't seem to recognize what really goes on in someone's life

It's not so much don't recognise as don't care—all energy is devoted inwards to propping up the institution.

[Autobloke]

And getting as much cash out of people as possible for nothing in return. Damn religion.

[Predabot]

Jesus christ and his papa... I must have been in a manic-depressive state when I made this thread last year..

Even I, that wrote it, are having trouble following just exactly what I wrote.

Anyways, maybe you're wondering why I'm reanimating this thread? Well, it's simply because I don't think we ever came up with anything even remotely conclusive, not even anything remotely likely, among all the theories we dug up.

This is a tricky question, no?

I must say, I was quite surprised about Karlos posts about BRAIN-differences. So there's actually some difference there? That can be measured and scanned?

This sounds like quite the breaktrough, except for oh, the fact that apparently it again, proves nothing... Insufficient data.

Are there any interesting factual studies being made at the moment that are worth having a look at btw?

Okay, I'm back - my computer died for a bit so I've missed most of the conversation.
Firstly, despite my initial reservations about this being a topic that might just be an exercise in pointing fingers at homosexuals and spouting the usual rhetoric, I apologise to Predabot if I sounded angry - the friend I mentioned earlier was hospitalised by a load of 'gay-bashers' about six months ago and I'm still kind of p***ed off about the whole affair. Don't worry - he's okay now - 'just' a few broken ribs, concussion (which was thought to be a skull fracture - but thankfully wasn't), and a hell of a lot of cuts and bruises.

Appology accepted mate. And damn... feel bad about your mate, what happened to him really was uncalled for.

I take it he's relatively fine at the moment tho, right? Too bad you may never read this, or reply to it.. since you've been off the map for about two years now.

[Impactor returns 2.0]

Didnt this thread die like 2 years ago?

[Obfleur]

I'll probably be using that a lot around Predabot.