And the new pope is...

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:12 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote: What the hell is that?

David Irving reads more into Harry Potter

THE latest grown-up to declare an interest in Harry Potter is that sinister old Holocaust revisionist David Irving.

On Monday, Irving -- still facing an estimated £2.5 million legal bill after the collapse of his libel case against Deborah Lipstadt -- took his daughter, Jessica, to see Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. He left convinced that the film is riddled with covert racism and anti-Semitism.

"The film is pure joy. Eton College meets Wizard of Oz," he enthuses. "As a High Court-authenticated and fully fledged anti-Semite and racist, I am alert to the movie's undertones, like the beautifully crafted goblins who are the bank tellers and cashiers in the Gringott's bank sequence, with their evil, leering faces, shifty eyes and pointy ears."

bookMost pleasing of all, he adds, is the "shameless Sloaniness" of the child actors' voices: "a delight for unabashed court-certified racists like myself to hear".

The outlandish review, published in Irving's internet diary, finishes by alleging that the film's producers digitally planted "a few token black faces" among Harry's fellow pupils.

Producer Warner Brothers refused to comment on Irving's review.

-- Richard Eden

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:39 pm

Best First wrote:Did i say all German's were Nazi's? No.

Did i say there were not reasons that the nazi party rose to power? No.

All i was dioing was responding to this absurd statement:

Nazi is a government idealogy that has little to do with the people of Germany
see? Pay attention people.

As far as i can tell this topic thus far can be summed up as 'Pope not Nazi, just wanker', with Ultimate David Irving trying to get away with a few more bits of nonsense and hoping no one notices

Like his little Harry Potter outburst of a few years ago btw...

Sorry, I quoted you but my post was supposed to bedirected in general-.--

Well I'll try to make it clearer next time.

So back on topic, anyone watched the Pope's inaugural speech this Sunday?

Interesting that he kept pretty much everything and everyone (goverment) asJohn Paul II. left it, even more strange that he uses his staff. I wonder if that's permanent or he'll have a new one made?

Post by **Best First** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:25 pm

Actually i was refferring to this.

http://www.darkmark.com/c.c?l=n/archive ... ll%20Story

but hey ho!

as for

"a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture."
That is the definition of idealogy. And thats how I see it as regards to the Nazi government. HItler had supporters and detractors. The whole nation did not turn Nazi overnight. BUt most of them were forced to.

non of which contradicts my statement that youir assertion that 'Nazi is a government idealogy that has little to do with the people of Germany' is balls. concession accepted.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:24 pm

Ok obviously there was a misunderstanding. By "has little to do with the German people", I meant that they really had no control or insight into the government's policy. Such as not having 3 branches of government to legislate laws etc.. With no congress or house of representatives, policy was enacted without the people. Idealogy became policy without a vote by the people or senators, suppose to represent them.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:07 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote:Ok obviously there was a misunderstanding. By "has little to do with the German people", I meant that they really had no control or insight into the government's policy. Such as not having 3 branches of government to legislate laws etc.. With no congress or house of representatives, policy was enacted without the people. Idealogy became policy without a vote by the people or senators, suppose to represent them.

So you're saying that it's a bit like the current US (or, indeed, UK) system, then.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:13 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:Ok obviously there was a misunderstanding. By "has little to do with the German people", I meant that they really had no control or insight into the government's policy. Such as not having 3 branches of government to legislate laws etc.. With no congress or house of representatives, policy was enacted without the people. Idealogy became policy without a vote by the people or senators, suppose to represent them.
So you're saying that it's a bit like the current US (or, indeed, UK) system, then.

How is that even possible? In the US the people vote for the elected officials. And the last time I checked England was a democracy.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:17 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:Ok obviously there was a misunderstanding. By "has little to do with the German people", I meant that they really had no control or insight into the government's policy. Such as not having 3 branches of government to legislate laws etc.. With no congress or house of representatives, policy was enacted without the people. Idealogy became policy without a vote by the people or senators, suppose to represent them.
So you're saying that it's a bit like the current US (or, indeed, UK) system, then.
How is that even possible? In the US the people vote for the elected officials. And the last time I checked England was a democracy.

ideology becomes policy without a vote by the people in both systems. Look at the "war on terror" or the war against Iraq. If you think that the western world really works as a democracy, then you're rather naive about how politics works in practice.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:36 am

Bouncelot wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Bouncelot wrote: So you're saying that it's a bit like the current US (or, indeed, UK) system, then.
How is that even possible? In the US the people vote for the elected officials. And the last time I checked England was a democracy.
ideology becomes policy without a vote by the people in both systems. Look at the "war on terror" or the war against Iraq. If you think that the western world really works as a democracy, then you're rather naive about how politics works in practice.

The "war on terror" was approved by a senate majority! And the Senators voted by the people. This is not some conspiracy! Democracy is democracy! I realize it's not perfect but it's the best we have. So I don't know what you are talking about.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:22 am

Ultimate Weapon wrote:I realize it's not perfect but it's the best we have.

That's complete ********. Accepting a hugely flawed ideology just because it's less flawed instead of trying to make something better is moronic.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:39 am

Professor Smooth wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:I realize it's not perfect but it's the best we have.
That's complete ********. Accepting a hugely flawed ideology just because it's less flawed instead of trying to make something better is moronic.

Well then step right up sir! You seem to have all the answers that will fix everything!

The point is that there is nobody ready to step in and fix the problems! Because the "greedy selfish politicians" are voted in by the "greedy selfish public." Yeah sucky public! Everybodies to busy at the mall pulling out their credit cards from their fannypacks to buy sneakers with lights in them! Garbage in! Garbage out! It's the best we can do!

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:31 am

Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:I realize it's not perfect but it's the best we have.
That's complete ********. Accepting a hugely flawed ideology just because it's less flawed instead of trying to make something better is moronic.
Well then step right up sir! You seem to have all the answers that will fix everything! The point is that there is nobody ready to step in and fix the problems! Because the "greedy selfish politicians" are voted in by the "greedy selfish public." Yeah sucky public! Everybodies to busy at the mall pulling out their credit cards from their fannypacks to buy sneakers with lights in them! Garbage in! Garbage out! It's the best we can do!

My personal stance is as follows:
[composite word including 'f*ck'] America. I'm leaving next July and I am never coming back.

YDuzItBurnWhenIP · Post by **YDuzItBurnWhenIP** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:45 am

Professor Smooth wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote: That's complete ********. Accepting a hugely flawed ideology just because it's less flawed instead of trying to make something better is moronic.
Well then step right up sir! You seem to have all the answers that will fix everything! The point is that there is nobody ready to step in and fix the problems! Because the "greedy selfish politicians" are voted in by the "greedy selfish public." Yeah sucky public! Everybodies to busy at the mall pulling out their credit cards from their fannypacks to buy sneakers with lights in them! Garbage in! Garbage out! It's the best we can do!
My personal stance is as follows:
**** America. I'm leaving next July and I am never coming back.

Later.. Dont the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

Post by **Best First** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:47 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote:Ok obviously there was a misunderstanding. By "has little to do with the German people", I meant that they really had no control or insight into the government's policy

Government policy does not equal ideology - many starnds of nazi ideology were readily apparent and voted for by German people before and as part of the Nazi rise to power. Equally many strands of their ideology are deeply rooted in German history and German circumsatnce at the time - Nazism was originally a very German brand of fascism.

In addition to that many policies were readily evident at street level or via the Nazi propaganda machine.

There is no misunderstanding, i just think you are talking **** again.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:25 pm

Best First wrote:Government policy does not equal ideology -

It does not equal but it is the same coin just a different side. Idealogy is the driving force behind policy.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:26 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:I realize it's not perfect but it's the best we have.
That's complete ********. Accepting a hugely flawed ideology just because it's less flawed instead of trying to make something better is moronic.
Well then step right up sir! You seem to have all the answers that will fix everything! The point is that there is nobody ready to step in and fix the problems! Because the "greedy selfish politicians" are voted in by the "greedy selfish public." Yeah sucky public! Everybodies to busy at the mall pulling out their credit cards from their fannypacks to buy sneakers with lights in them! Garbage in! Garbage out! It's the best we can do!

But do they really have a choice? The US electorate has a choice between a right-wing party and an extremely right-wing party when it comes to vote. There are some minority parties that are centrist or even left of centre, but they are minority parties that don't even get on the ballot in every state.

Here in the UK, the policies of the 2 big parties (Labour and the Tories) are almost inidstinguishable, and the third party, the Lib Dems don't differ in any major ways - they all share similar base ideologies, I would have to vote for a minor party with no chance of getting into government to vote for anything that challenges the consensus amongst the big parties. In theory our countries are democracies, in practice we don't get much of a choice.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:40 pm

In the US we have representative democracy! We don't have direct democracy, but some states do. Like the California recall vote. That is direct democracy. But not at the national level.

Post by **Kaylee** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:07 pm

You also have a ridiculous voting system whereby one candidate can get less votes than another but because they won states with a large number of college votes they win power. That doesn't sound like government of the people, by the people imo.

Still better than the system here in the UK tho.

bobaprime85 · Post by **bobaprime85** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:33 pm

When will people learn...democracy doesn't work! [/]Homer Simpson

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:01 pm

Karl Lynch wrote:You also have a ridiculous voting system whereby one candidate can get less votes than another but because they won states with a large number of college votes they win power. That doesn't sound like government of the people, by the people imo.

Still better than the system here in the UK tho.

Heck, if they'd had a full recount of Florida, Gore would have won the electoral college as well as the popular vote, and Bush jr would never have been President.

Post by **Best First** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:15 am

Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Best First wrote:Government policy does not equal ideology -
It does not equal but it is the same coin just a different side. Idealogy is the driving force behind policy.

a statement so simple that it is redundant.

Ideology can be the driving force behind policy, but equaly so can a number of other factors, such as pragmatism, public opinion, personal agends. Your attemtp to seperate ideology from the people who spawn it an support it is a waste fo time.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:28 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote:In the US we have representative democracy!

And to a different degree, so have eveywhere else, at one time or another.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:26 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Karl Lynch wrote:You also have a ridiculous voting system whereby one candidate can get less votes than another but because they won states with a large number of college votes they win power. That doesn't sound like government of the people, by the people imo.

Still better than the system here in the UK tho.
Heck, if they'd had a full recount of Florida, Gore would have won the electoral college as well as the popular vote, and Bush jr would never have been President.

The SCOTUS handed down their decision at 10pm , and to finish the recount by 12pm. Giving Gore a 2 hour window to finish.

Shanti418 · Post by **Shanti418** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:27 am

Professor Smooth wrote: My personal stance is as follows:
**** America. I'm leaving next July and I am never coming back.

Do you think I could fit in your suitcase?

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:54 am

Shanti418 wrote:
Professor Smooth wrote: My personal stance is as follows:
**** America. I'm leaving next July and I am never coming back.

Do you think I could fit in your suitcase?

Quite possibly. Assuming you're fairly small. If we get caught going through airport security, you're on your own.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:58 am

How does one go about becoming a non US citizen? I asked my political science teacher, and he really didn't know.

Professor Smooth · Post by **Professor Smooth** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:48 am

Ultimate Weapon wrote:How does one go about becoming a non US citizen? I asked my political science teacher, and he really didn't know.

Similar to the way you become a US citizen. Only in reverse. In my case, I've secured a job in Japan. While working that job, I'll still be a US citizen. After a certain amount of time there, I'll be able to apply for citizenship in Japan. I've not yet decided if I'm going to persue Japanese citizenship (which, I'm told, is next to impossible) or if I'm going to settle down in Europe after I'm finished in Japan. My family is originally from the UK, so it'd be sort of like coming full circle.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:08 am

Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:
Karl Lynch wrote:You also have a ridiculous voting system whereby one candidate can get less votes than another but because they won states with a large number of college votes they win power. That doesn't sound like government of the people, by the people imo.

Still better than the system here in the UK tho.
Heck, if they'd had a full recount of Florida, Gore would have won the electoral college as well as the popular vote, and Bush jr would never have been President.
The SCOTUS handed down their decision at 10pm , and to finish the recount by 12pm. Giving Gore a 2 hour window to finish.

They were only recounting a small portion of the Florida vote. The guys who bought the ballot papers have said that if the entire state had been recounted, then Gore would have won the state.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:20 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Bouncelot wrote: Heck, if they'd had a full recount of Florida, Gore would have won the electoral college as well as the popular vote, and Bush jr would never have been President.
The SCOTUS handed down their decision at 10pm , and to finish the recount by 12pm. Giving Gore a 2 hour window to finish.
They were only recounting a small portion of the Florida vote. The guys who bought the ballot papers have said that if the entire state had been recounted, then Gore would have won the state.

Gore did not go after the whole state! Only certain counties like Miami Dade, where 3,000 votes were left uncounted.

Bouncelot · Post by **Bouncelot** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:29 pm

Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Bouncelot wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote: The SCOTUS handed down their decision at 10pm , and to finish the recount by 12pm. Giving Gore a 2 hour window to finish.
They were only recounting a small portion of the Florida vote. The guys who bought the ballot papers have said that if the entire state had been recounted, then Gore would have won the state.
Gore did not go after the whole state! Only certain counties like Miami Dade, where 3,000 votes were left uncounted.

Doesn't change the fact that he actually won more of the state's votes than Bush did - therefore, by rights, he should have won the election. Hence the US system is proved capable of being subverted.

Ultimate Weapon · Post by **Ultimate Weapon** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:56 pm

Bouncelot wrote:
Ultimate Weapon wrote:
Bouncelot wrote: They were only recounting a small portion of the Florida vote. The guys who bought the ballot papers have said that if the entire state had been recounted, then Gore would have won the state.
Gore did not go after the whole state! Only certain counties like Miami Dade, where 3,000 votes were left uncounted.
Doesn't change the fact that he actually won more of the state's votes than Bush did - therefore, by rights, he should have won the election. Hence the US system is proved capable of being subverted.

What votes are you talking about? Only "Legal votes" were counted. Those that showed a definitive choice for president. The others were tossed out. FL law cannot be thought to require the counting of improperly marked ballots.