Questions for Tolkien buffs

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:04 pm

I spent this weekend on a bit of a LOTR marathon. Watched all three extended editions (the first time I'd seen the TTT and ROTK ext editions) and was bowled over with how much the extra scenes enhance character and improve the narrative.

But now I have a load of really lame questions that I'd like answered if possible (I ain't read the books)...

My first is about Middle Earth geography. Are there any civilisations beyond the borders of the Middle Earth map? And where do the Undying Lands fit in all of this?

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:19 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:My first is about Middle Earth geography. Are there any civilisations beyond the borders of the Middle Earth map? And where do the Undying Lands fit in all of this?

i) Well, there's lots of other landmass, but not much detail on any civilisations beyond the various flavours of Southron and Easterling; there's the rest of Harad, which I believe is just called Far Harad, and then there's the lands to the East (beyond Mordor)which possess civilisations of Men but I don't believe that area has a decent name. It might be Khand.
Oh, and the bit above and to the east of Mordor is called Rhun. It's got Men in it as well.
I'll have to go dig my ME Atlas out to check.

ii) The Undying Lands aren't actually located on Middle Earth anymore, they were removed beyond mortal ken at the Downfall of Numenor. Before the Breaking of the World, if you got in a boat and sailed due West from practically any point on Middle Earth you'd bump into the continent of Aman, also known as the Undying Lands.
Actually, unless you were allowed to or some other great Doom was in play, you wouldn't, you'd more likely get lost in the Shadowy Seas or beach on one of the islands that made people sleep, or Osse would destroy your boat and kill you before you got there. Anyways, the Undying Lands were part of the world and occupied the entire West side.

After the world was made into a globe, the Undying Lands were removed from our 'plane' I suppose, beyond the reach of Men and pretty much everybody else. Only the Elves were allowed to journey there, and only they can travel the Straight Way in their ships. So, they do just sail straight west and reach Aman, where if an ordinary boat of men or Dwarves were to try it, they'd end up on the (new) western continent instead.

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:51 pm

Enlightening stuff... thanks.

Does that make The Undying Lands some form of 'heaven'? What do they get up to there?

Why precisely must Frodo AND Bilbo go there?

Why must the elves depart Middle Earth? I know now is the Age of Man and all, but I'd need a better reason than that before buggering off.

These other lands of men - would Sauron have conquered these as well? Why didn't they get in on the action when war kicked off?

Is there an expanded map available online?

How did it become a 'globe'?

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:28 pm

spiderfrommars wrote:Does that make The Undying Lands some form of 'heaven'? What do they get up to there?

re: Aman = Heaven. Well, pretty much I suppose. It certainly is the Middle-Earth version of Heaven, as yer actual Gods physically exist there and everything is Blessed and Hallowed and other Things With Capital Letters.
They get up to whatever. AFAIK, there are no stories set in Valinor (the Elven name for the place) after the Breaking of the World. But before that the Elven inhabitants are generally seen just doing what Elves always do, living in great harmony and taking delight in creating great works of art/beauty etc.
Except they have no worries or problems, which means that barring fatal misadventure, they are even more effectively immortal as they don't 'fade through weariness'.

spidey wrote:Why precisely must Frodo AND Bilbo go there?

There's no 'must', AFAIK. They are offered the opportunity to go there, 'special dispensation' if you will, because of their role as Ringbearers. I'm not sure on how being a Ringbearer grants you permission, but everyone seems pretty certain it'll work. At any rate, Gandalf'll get them in. He knows the Doorman.
Bilbo goes because it'll be a great Adventure and because he loves the Elves and Elrond is his bessie mate. Also, he's gonna pop his clogs really soon if he stays on Middle Earth much longer now that the Ring is destroyed and going to the Undying Lands will give him some more time.
Frodo goes because of the reasons given in the movie, ie feels no real connection to the Shire, always in various degrees of pain, is generally miserable. All that will be taken away when he gets to the Undying Lands.

spidey wrote:Why must the elves depart Middle Earth? I know now is the Age of Man and all, but I'd need a better reason than that before buggering off.

The Elves are supposed to live in Valinor; the ones that are in Middle-Earth are either exiles or those/descendants of those that are called the Unwilling; the ones that refused the command to go to Valinor in the first place.
The Age of Man also brings with it an end to their works; as the power of the Gods withdraws from the land and all 'unearthly' sources of said power are removed/destroyed, everything Elvish will crumble, fade or otherwise be diminished.
Any Elves that persist in staying in Middle-Earth will eventually die.
There's pretty much no reason for them to stay now there are no more exterior Evil forces left to fight and things like the Doom of the Noldor are all played out. The future is kinda dirty grey. The future is Men.
(no-one knows what will happen to the Dwarfs)

spidey wrote:These other lands of men - would Sauron have conquered these as well? Why didn't they get in on the action when war kicked off?

The Haradrim (Southrons) were under his sway, as were the Easterlings (from Khand). They are really the only other large civilisations that were worth anything, strategically speaking.
Oh yeah, and of course he had the Corsairs of Umbar as well. Umbar is in Harad, IIRC.
The Men of Rhun I think are pretty low-tech and scattered, they are like the Wood-Men, not really a cohesive force. I think they also took a beating from the Wainriders back in the early Third Age (to the point of mass enslavement, IIRC) and so probably aren't very popuous either.
The Lake-Men (of the North) did take up arms against Sauron, allied with the Dwarfs, but they got their asses kicked at the Battle of Dale and they had to hole up in the Lonely Mountain until the Ring's destruction shattered their besiegers.
Oh! That reminds me, there are more Men up in the far North, the Ice-Men of Forochel. Think Eskimo.

spidey wrote:How did it become a 'globe'?

When the Numenoreans invaded Aman they pissed off the Valar (Gods) so much they decided to remove the Undying Lands from the reach of Men and destroy the Island of Numenor. They acheived both of these by remaking the world as a globe, near the end of the 2nd Age. Before that, Middle-Earth was flat.

I'll edit in a link to a decent online map if I can find one, there must be one. Although most of them will probably be just pretty versions of the standard Middle-Earth map.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:38 pm

This was a good site when I used to have all these questions a few years back.

Haven't been on there recently. though, but superficially it seems ok.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:42 pm

Rebis wrote:This was a good site when I used to have all these questions a few years back.

Haven't been on there recently. though, but superficially it seems ok.

Oooh, that site looks ace. And it has sections specifically aimed at explaining things to people who've seen the movies but not read the books. And lots of nice pictures. And maps!
Cheers for the link.

Nosecone · Post by **Nosecone** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:37 pm

Does that make The Undying Lands some form of 'heaven'? What do they get up to there?

Possibly for Elves, Elves are bound to the planet but when they die they are transported to the "Halls of Mandos" where they are kept until Mandos decides to allow them to leave.

Other spicies (Men for instance) don't go to the undieing lands and only Mandos (head God on Earth) and Illuvator (Creator of universe including gods) know what fate awaits the species of men

Why precisely must Frodo AND Bilbo go there?
will get back to this when I double check my facts but I belive it has something to do with the effects of the ring on them, after all Sam eventually came to the undieing lands after his wife died. Possibly something to do with the fact that they will live an awful long time (Gollum was like 700) and so to make it bearable they were allowed there until they decided to die (as all creatures except elves must die and not even the gods have the power to overturn this)

Why must the elves depart Middle Earth? I know now is the Age of Man and all, but I'd need a better reason than that before buggering off
They were fed up with the toils of middle Earth, after all where they were going there was no hardship, a lot of the Elves that left were also of the Noldor (The Exiles) who wished to go back to the undieing lands, Galadriel herself was banished to middle Earth and was only allowed back after she was able to resist the power of the ring (her line saying she passed the test and will pass into the west and remain Galadriel) as she was one of the leaders of the leaving of the Noldor in quest against Melkor. A number of Elves that stayed long into the 4th age were the "unwilling", ones that didn't go to valinor initially (Legolas and the Elves of Mirkwood, the Elves of Thingol who ended up at Lothlorien etc...)

These other lands of men - would Sauron have conquered these as well? Why didn't they get in on the action when war kicked off?

nope, there are a variety of levels of Gods, on the top level are the likes of Mandos (leader of gods), Melkor (Evil god) and about 5 others I think (Water, Earth, Fire etc...). These are called the valar. then less powerful are the Mair, like gods these can be good or evil. Ones we see (or may of heard of) are the Balrogs, Wizards, Werewolfs, Sauron, Tom Bombadil etc....

At the end of the First(???) age when middle Earth was almost rulled by Melkor (or Morgoth as he was also called) the Gods did eventually intervene after a plea from Elendil and the gift of a silmaril. the result was Morgoths capture and removal from the universe but in the process half of middle Earth (a place called beleriand) was destroyed and sunk into the sea. As such when Sauron (who had hidden after the fight) re-rose the gods didn't want to risjk destroying any more of middle Earth as they loved it. As a result they sent 5 Mair to help the people of middle Earth fight Sauron and defeat him themselves. they were forbidden from using magic to defeat Sauron by force and provided they kept true to their purpose ther spirit would be allowed back to the undieing lands should they be killed. gandalf was one of these (the only one who held true to his mission) and others included Sauron and Radagast

Back to the point about ivading Valinor, Sauron wouldn't of stood a chance even with the ring against the full might of the three houses of High elves (currently residing in Valinor) and the Gods

How did it become a 'globe'?

Men became greedy and seeked eternal life (Fall of Numenor)

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:49 pm

Nosecone wrote:Mandos (head God on Earth).... Mandos (leader of gods)...

Manwe, dude.
Mandos is just the 'God of the Dead', not the top God.

edit: smegging links just take you to the mainpage of the site Rebis posted instead of the relevant entries (which can be found by scrolling down and going inthe 'M' index.)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:59 pm

KingMob wrote:
Nosecone wrote:Mandos (head God on Earth).... Mandos (leader of gods)...
Manwe, dude.
Mandos is just the 'God of the Dead', not the top God.

edit: smegging links just take you to the mainpage of the site Rebis posted instead of the relevant entries (which can be found by scrolling down and going inthe 'M' index.)

It's cos it's frames, dude. You have to take the link off the frame itself.

Manwë, Mandos.

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:06 pm

Heh, cheers once more.
I shall add this technique to my (as has been made embarrassingly clear) pitiful grasp of teh intarweb1 knowledge.

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:07 pm

Beautiful.

Didn't leholas take Gimly with him when he went?

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:12 pm

Jetfire wrote:Didn't leholas take Gimly with him when he went?

Yeah...although there's some debate over it. I would say yes, personally.
This seems to agree as well.
(did it right this time, yay!)

Nosecone · Post by **Nosecone** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:31 pm

Jetfire wrote:Beautiful.

Didn't leholas take Gimly with him when he went?

yeah I believe so, after the start of the forth age gimli took some dwarves from the lonely mountain with him and started a new colony at the caves at helms Deep whilst legolas took a remnant of his people to Lothlorien, both agreed to fulfill his oath (Legolas visiting caves and Gimli deep into the forest of Fanghorn) until finally the two of them left together and gimli was allowed over due to his friendship with Legolas

and yes I knew about Mandos and Manwe, I just was an idiot when I typed them

silly me

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:03 am

Thanks guys, this stuff is amazing. Its like Tolkein thought of everything - this mythology is so rich.

Will definitely check that site out. I must know more.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:46 am

KingMob wrote:The Elves are supposed to live in Valinor; the ones that are in Middle-Earth are either exiles or those/descendants of those that are called the Unwilling; the ones that refused the command to go to Valinor in the first place.

The command from whom? Does that mean the Elves started in Middle-Earth and then were told to migrate to Valinor? Who made that call and why?

KingMob · Post by **KingMob** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:13 pm

Brendocon wrote:
KingMob wrote:The Elves are supposed to live in Valinor; the ones that are in Middle-Earth are either exiles or those/descendants of those that are called the Unwilling; the ones that refused the command to go to Valinor in the first place.
The command from whom? Does that mean the Elves started in Middle-Earth and then were told to migrate to Valinor? Who made that call and why?

Heh, yeah. They 'awakened' in the far east of Middle-Earth, on the shores of a lake called Cuivienen and lived there for a while. However, the first evil Dark Lord, Melkor, was abroad in Middle-Earth and he found them and did terrible things like murder, torture, genetic experimentation and the stealing of their tea. This is how the very first Orcs were bred.

They were soon found by Orome, one of the Valar, (the Huntsman/Forest-God archetype) who told the others about them and the perils they faced.
The Valar decided to go to war against Melkor in order to protect the Eldar (Elves) and there was the Battle of the Powers as a result. Melkor lost and was hauled back to Aman in chains, and after some discussion, the Valar commanded that the Elves should also travel to Aman, where they could be forever safe.
Orome was the one who personally delivered the summons.

Not all of the Elves wanted to, and a significant (but small compared to the full Elven host) number refused the command; others changed their minds during the journey. These Elves are known as the Unwilling and their decendants are Silvan Elves. The Elves of Mirkwood are Silvan Elves, (although Legolas is Sindar by blood). Sindar are the faction of the Teleri Elves who chose to stay behind. They are not counted amongst the Unwilling on a technicality. Many of Galadriel's folk are also Silvan, although she is a Noldor. The Noldor present in Middle-Earth are all exiles from Valinor. The Elves of Rivendell are a mixture of all kinds of Elf, as befits their lord; Elrond is blood related to all 3 kinds of Eldar, the Maiar and the Edain.

Brendocon · Post by **Brendocon** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:43 pm

KingMob wrote:Melkor, was abroad in Middle-Earth and he found them and did terrible things like murder, torture, genetic experimentation and the stealing of their tea.

Typical English-on-holiday stuff, then?

Post by **spiderfrommars** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:01 pm

Arwen was Aragorn's Queen throughout his long reign. As Elrond had foreseen, she outlived the King, and after his death she took leave of Eldarion her son and wandered away from Gondor. She came to Lórien, which had become an empty land after Galadriel's departure, and there she gave up her life on the green mound of Cerin Amroth.

BB Shockwave · Post by **BB Shockwave** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:18 pm

Well, LOTR doesn't really has happy endings, face it...

I was always curious about whatever happened to Radagast... Every AD&D player can tell you of course, that he was the archetype of the D&D druid - animal empathy, plant-powers, shape-shifting, etc.

Also, little is known about the other two magi, the 'blue ones'. Tolkien only mentions that they went to the North (if I recall right) and it's unknown if they perished or were swayed to the enemy's side.

Warcry · Post by **Warcry** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:48 am

BB Shockwave wrote:Also, little is known about the other two magi, the 'blue ones'. Tolkien only mentions that they went to the North (if I recall right) and it's unknown if they perished or were swayed to the enemy's side.

Most likely niether. They went into the East with Saruman at some point, but of the three of them only Saruman returned to the western lands. An essay on the Five Wizards in Unfinished Tales suggests that the blue wizards were corrupted and formed some sort of mage clan that outlasted Sauron's dominion. IIRC they weren't alligned with the Dark Lord, though.

However, the text doesn't definitively state that this is what happened; only that it was very likely.

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