MTMTE #39

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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:21 pm

So I can go and buy a copy of that Batgirl cover, can I?

Because if I can't, I don't really see the difference between a boycott and a ban, other than a mealy-mouthed way to defend illiberal intolerance.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:10 pm

Of course you can go and buy it you melodramatic ****.

This is my entire point - you continually espousing this ridiculous idea that a few attention seeking ***** who have jumped on the women's rights bandwagon are somehow ******* up everything that is good and pure.

When in reality a few attention seeking ***** said something, most people went "oh, what a bunch of dicks. OK, on with life" except you, who ******* bang on and on about them all the time like some massive obsessed paedophile.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:22 pm

Of course you can go and buy it you melodramatic ****.
Don't you ever stop to think "I'd better check if I'm wrong about this" before posting?

http://mashable.com/2015/03/18/batgirl- ... cover-art/
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Computron » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:31 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:So I can go and buy a copy of that Batgirl cover, can I?

Because if I can't, I don't really see the difference between a boycott and a ban, other than a mealy-mouthed way to defend illiberal intolerance.
Er, so a company has to sell a product that it knows won't sell in order that it won't be accused of censoring, er, itself?

If the supermarket starts selling moldy oranges, and customers complain about lack of quality at the store, should the company's response be:

A) Sorry about the moldy oranges. Moldy oranges don't represent our values and our customer base so we're going to fix it.

Or

B) [composite word including 'f*ck'] you. Eat our oranges. (Followed shortly thereafter by tanking 2Q revenues I suppose)

(If a boycott is so effective that from an economics standpoint it would harm the company to the point where a product is no longer profitable, then the market for the product that is being boycotted is clearly not favored by the majority of the customers. That's not a ban. That's the market saying your product is terrible. Last I checked the free market itself is rather amoral and isn't particularly concerned with what is socially acceptable or not. If there is a market for these products, someone will fill that niche. I mean, that explains the existence of Grimm Fairy Tale comics on Comixology right? I don't feel a need to buy em, but apparently some people do. Now if IDW started taking that art style into MTMTE and Nautica started walking around in a bikini with cleavage pouring out of her top, I'd bail on MTMTE in a heartbeat, artistic integrity be damned.)

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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:45 pm

Completely false equivalence - mouldy fruit is useless and you can't eat it. We're talking about a variant cover that would have been sold alongside other "non-problematic" covers, all of which contained the exact same product. The company never even got a chance to see how well it would do at retail because a vocal minority decided that they didn't like it for purely subjective reasons and complained until DC pulled it.

So in this case, the difference between a boycott and a ban is negligible. The illiberal censors got what they wanted and limited everyone else's choices. You may think that's a good thing, I certainly don't.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Computron » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:21 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:Completely false equivalence - mouldy fruit is useless and you can't eat it. We're talking about a variant cover that would have been sold alongside other "non-problematic" covers, all of which contained the exact same product. The company never even got a chance to see how well it would do at retail because a vocal minority decided that they didn't like it for purely subjective reasons and complained until DC pulled it.

So in this case, the difference between a boycott and a ban is negligible. The illiberal censors got what they wanted and limited everyone else's choices. You may think that's a good thing, I certainly don't.
Fine, replace the example with a cover of Spiderman getting sexually assaulted by Kingpin. People, predictably, complain about it. Marvel has two choices.

A) Sorry about that cover. Having Spiderman sexually assaulted doesn't represent our values and our customer base so we're going to fix it.

Or

B) **** you. Buy our comic. (Followed shortly thereafter by tanking 2Q revenues I suppose)

Which path makes economic sense?

And as for "[t]he company never even got a chance to see how well it would do at retail," let's be honest. DC is a fairly large company and a division of Time Warner. It's a multi-billion dollar empire. They have a marketing department. They have analysts whose sole job is to find out what will sell and what won't. They saw the writing on the wall and pulled a product that would upset more customers than not.

The way you are describing DC is as if they are some Mom and Pop store who got overrun by a pack of angry hyenas. "Poor DC...they never had a chance."

Again, if there is a market for this sort of thing, it will be taken care of. However that doesn't mean DC in particular has to be the one to do it.

And here is the thing. I doubt the artist intended to specifically suggest that Batgirl was being raped. However enough fans took it that way that DC made a business decision to the effect of "Certain fans of this comic book think we are ok with raping Batgirl. Perhaps we should nip that in the bud?"

That's not censorship. That's a business making a business decision not to lose customers.

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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:47 pm

Computron wrote:That's not censorship.
Right. Just for the sake of argument, assuming a bunch of censorious SJWs did want to get that Batgirl cover banned, how would they go about it differently?

[edit] Wait, what? The Joker's supposed to be raping Batgirl on that cover? Holy ****, that's the most insane thing I've heard since the last time I listened to an SJW. **** me.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:50 pm

HA!

So in this case you can't get said cover.

Egg on my face, regardless, I agree with what Computron says on the matter.

Bob, you seem to have a problem with people complaining about stuff unless it is you doing the complaining.

Why are you so mad, bro?

You also like to talk about these shadowy groups trying to [composite word including 'f*ck'] us all over, e.g. these "illiberal censors" (who the [composite word including 'f*ck'] are these people btw? I want names and faces, what they've achieved etc. I want to see your secret files bro. Is there any chance they don't exist?) who "got what they wanted and limited everyone else's choice."

I'm not sure these people exist. Do you seriously think there is a group at large who want to limit people's choices, who go round looking for stuff to complain about till it gets pulled?

It would be real nice if you could point me in the direction of this vocal minority getting mainstream stuff - or even anything not obscure - banned. Please. As well as reasons on why they shouldn't be allowed to complain about stuff but you can.

Cause do you not see the hypocrisy in moaning about people being perpetually offended and trying to silence stuff, whilst being perpetually offended about them being offended and wanting to silence them?

Cheers.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:32 pm

snarl wrote:I'm not sure these people exist. Do you seriously think there is a group at large who want to limit people's choices, who go round looking for stuff to complain about till it gets pulled?
Well Smooth gave three examples of comics that recently got pulled in this manner so at least two of us are sharing this delusion if you're right.
snarl wrote:It would be real nice if you could point me in the direction of this vocal minority getting mainstream stuff - or even anything not obscure - banned. Please.
There's a CNN report here. I guess if you search for the hashtag #changethecover you'll find these people, though I wouldn't necessarily recommend it.
snarl wrote:Cause do you not see the hypocrisy in moaning about people being perpetually offended and trying to silence stuff, whilst being perpetually offended about them being offended and wanting to silence them?
I don't want to silence anyone - if you can point to where I've said that I'd be grateful, all I am saying is that I just don't see why they get to censor comics now. I don't want to see stuff censored, I think it's a really bad thing, and no matter how many weasel words Compy dresses it up in, that's exactly what it is. I hate censorship, they are actively censoring comic books. That's the long and the short of it.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Computron » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:14 pm

Metal Vendetta wrote:
Computron wrote:That's not censorship.
Right. Just for the sake of argument, assuming a bunch of censorious SJWs did want to get that Batgirl cover banned, how would they go about it differently?

[edit] Wait, what? The Joker's supposed to be raping Batgirl on that cover? Holy ****, that's the most insane thing I've heard since the last time I listened to an SJW. **** me.
No the Joker isn't actively raping Batgirl on the cover, but given the prior history of the character and the current depiction a fair number of people viewed it as suggesting a sexual assault was going to occur.

But more importantly, these aren't "weasel words." There is a difference between a boycott and a ban.

Boycotts don't always end up changing policy. There are plenty of anti-same sex marriage organizations in the U.S. that have been "boycotting" Starbucks and Home Depot for years and it has done nothing. Why hasn't it? Because those companies did the numbers and realized that customers who were pro same sex marriage or entirely ambivalent on the issue far outweighed those who cared enough to actually boycott overpriced coffee.

A ban is a prior restraint on the publishing or distribution of material. A boycott may lead to a company banning the production of a certain product, but again, the boycott is different than the ban.

Regarding the Batgirl cover, not a single activist, tweet, individual or customer banned the cover. DC Comics pulled their own product. You want to be angry about it, be angry at DC. Surely they have the right to choose what to publish, right? If they aren't publishing what you want, vote with your money.

Here's the thing, and I'll say it again. The market will bear what demand requires. That's it. Tastes, attitudes and what we want to consume have changed dramatically in 20-30 years. DC Comics is no longer comfortable or no longer wants to risk alienating its customer base over something like this. Does this mean some customers may no longer purchase their books? Probably yes. But here is the thing. From a business standpoint, DC must have made the calculation that the number of customers they would keep versus lose must have been in favor of ditching the cover.

Again, and I've said it three times now, if there is a demand for covers or comics that other people might find objectionable, no one is stopping you from publishing it or buying it. In fact there are tons of comics right up that alley. As I said, there is an entire series of comics about fairy tale characters dressed in lingerie. There are plenty of comics that hold nothing back. However that doesn't mean anyone in particular has to purchase it or is refrained from critiquing it.

Unless you want to force DC comics to publish unprofitable comics? Can you imagine forcing companies to make things that won't sell?

Existence does not entail freedom from critique. Society changes. What was once acceptable, let alone actually analyzed, is now subject to review. Yes that can be uncomfortable at times, but if we actually want to make real our beliefs that everyone is a valued person in this society, then that means understanding that some people will disagree with things we enjoy.

Does that mean you can't disagree? No of course not. But let's not suddenly go from disagreement straight to "they're banning everything I like" when that is clearly not the case.

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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:01 pm

Computron wrote:No the Joker isn't actively raping Batgirl on the cover, but given the prior history of the character and the current depiction a fair number of people viewed it as suggesting a sexual assault was going to occur.
Or, to use other words, not actually happening. Look, I'm actually quite uncomfortable with rape imagery, I don't like looking at it. That Batgirl cover really isn't it, it's a villain being villainous.
Computron wrote:The market will bear what demand requires. That's it.
According to Rich Johnston, the Don't #changethecover backlash had the numbers on Twitter, so the market would presumably have been greater. There would have been a way to find out, of course, which would have been to run that cover alongside another "acceptable" one and see which one sold out. As an example, the "sexist shirt" sold out within seconds of #shirtgate. I know, I tried to buy one. Sorry, but I'm not buying the market argument.
Computron wrote:But let's not suddenly go from disagreement straight to "they're banning everything I like" when that is clearly not the case
I never said they were banning everything I like - hell, I've complained on here before about IDW putting those blasted Danger Girl Trinity ads on the back of Transformers comics because I really don't want people on the tube to think I'm reading a comic that largely appears to be about boobs. I didn't petition IDW to stop it, because I figure that a certain demographic that likes Transformers comics also likes comics about boobs. I'm not part of that demographic but nor would I ever choose to try to stop someone else looking at it. I'm sorry, but I think I lack the puritanical streak that somehow makes it okay to ban stuff if enough people are offended by it. You say it's not censorship, but I'm still asking how censorship looks any different.

Calls for censorship like this aren't healthy. Right now a smallish number of Twitter users have realised that if they shout loudly enough they can get Marvel and DC to change their product to their whim. Argh, I can't believe I'm going down the slippery slope argument, but realistically things like this have consequences. If Marvel and DC make concessions to the feminists then what's to stop the conservatives starting a Twitter campaign to have "demonic" books pulled from the shelves? Or comic books with gay characters? Doesn't this strike you as the thin end of a wedge? Why am I the only person who thinks "Comic books pulled after Twitter storm" is a bad thing?

What started this conversation was another campaign to boycott MTMTE over the fact that the guest artist also drew some fairly innocuous (at least by Japanese standards, see earlier misunderstanding regarding Kiss Players) comics. If IDW are listening to this boycott, and they think their market will drop thanks to it, they're not going to employ Mr. Sakamoto again. That seems unfair to me, so that's why I brought it up. From the preview pages of this issue, I think his art looks pretty good. He could potentially get even better at IDW, he could be the next Roche or Milne or Stone or Guidi, so to try to undermine him before his first issue is even out seems quite spiteful, to be honest.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Professor Smooth » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:38 am

Only a few more hours until this drops!

After reading the extended preview, I'm *beyond* excited! Nickel has the potential to the the most popular new character since Windbl...er...Dri...um...Wheeli...eeehhh...Galvatron! The most popular new character since Galvatron!
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:47 am

I liked his muchly.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Professor Smooth » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:37 pm

Tarn is Dominus Ambus. That's why Rewind survived.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Computron » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:32 pm

The tonal shift with the DJD was a bit abrupt and made them less an object of fear in my eyes. Tarn was almost too much of an evil Ultra Magnus. Maybe he is Dominus Ambus as a totalitarian whackjob.

That being said, still highly enjoyable and it looks like some real tough times are ahead for the Lost Light.

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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Professor Smooth » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:59 am

The "Tarn is Roller" evidence is piling up. But I think it's all one huge red herring. Like, the biggest, reddest herring of all time. Comparable to those first tuna of the year auctions in Japan...but with herring.

Tarn is shown being rebuilt. Which makes the physical similarities to Roller pretty much inconsequential. Unless they rebuilt him almost exactly as-is. And since it seems most Cybertronians don't keep the same look for extended periods of time, that is unlikely.

Tarn shares many of Roller's eccentricities. That's cool. I know plenty of people who share mine.

Tarn saw Skids w/ the Matrix tattoo. "Guy with face tattoo" is pretty memorable. I'm sure I'm not the only dude who remembers seeing the punk-rocker sporting a face tat in Hiroshima.

Buuuuuuuut....

After his empurata, Megatron helped to "fix" Shockwave. Partially, anyway. And that's because Megs and the Cons have a bunch of spare parts sitting around.

So, chips on the table...

Tarn is going to be revealed to be Roller...but that will be a fake-out. "Roller" exists (now?) in the same way Ultra Magnus did. Under the Roller "armor" is Dominus Ambus. A 'bot who shares his brother's obsessive attention to detail. A bot who seemingly has the power to talk people to death and whose (future) empurata *took away his ability to speak*. And also, the former lover of Rewind, the only survivor of a ship filled with people who DON'T SURVIVE encounters with the DJD.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:45 pm

If Tarn is Dominus Ambus then that shot of his lower face sans mask is presumably to throw us off the scent because it presumably means he's shaved off his "distinctive facial insignia", or porn 'tache.

I'm not entirely sold on the character of Nickel, she seems like a (very, very tired) "den mother" cliché to me. If I were a delusional weasel, I'd probably start a Twitter campaign to get her banned from the comic and then deny it had anything to do with censorship.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:39 pm

Interesting theory on Tarm / Ambus, although I personally don't buy it.

The two seem quite different from what we know.

DA - Upper class scientist, explorer, philosopher, class warrior / TF rights activist, a crusader as opposed to somebody with self doubt.

Roller - much more of a blue collar all round traditional good bloke, who likes a drink and the TV. Seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex around other elite bots as well - which you could argue means he might chose to hang around with lower classes like Rewind - But I would say that more likely points to him not being the kind of bot confident enough in himself to rally against the system.

Plus DA was offworld with Rewind when the war broke out. The impressions you get from the issues we've seen so far is that Tarn was "born" quite soon after the incidents in 36, which was before the war broke out.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by bumblemusprime » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:48 am

Tarn isn't Roller.

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He's Animated Sentinel Prime.

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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Best First » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:54 pm

Agree the behind the scenes DJD was a bit jarring, but i kind of liked the idea of the facade vs. the reality - you can't act like a psycho all the time, the mundanity of life will always creep in in between the murders.

I imagine.

Like what we have seen of Deathsuarus so far, especially the crack about the Autobot mask.

Also the reframing of Brainstorm's actions.

Not sure how the LL are getting out of this one...
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Impactor returns 2.0 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:26 pm

In one time line the LL crew don't get out of it do they?
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Optimus Prime Rib » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:23 pm

I love how the DJD ( the bad guys) are lead by a calm bureaucrat sent to do an unpleasant job whilst the Wreckers were lead by a psychopath who originally tried to justify his actions by "being the good guy"..

Its a nice twist.

What I really like about IDWs run more than anything is the blurred lines between good and evil:

"Bad Guys"
Cyclonus
Megatron
Thundercracker
Vos?

"Good Guys"
Impactor
Sandstorm
Prowl
Arcee
Whirl

Then you have Brainstorm, an Autobot who is really a Decepticon and Drift who was a Decepticon but is now an Autobot
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Professor Smooth » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:21 am

Impactor returns 2.0 wrote:In one time line the LL crew don't get out of it do they?
True, but that was a different crew line-up, wasn't it?

No Megatron, for starters. And a Cyclonus who may not have had that Great Sword, right? Plus, Drift was there to set everybody off. With him out of the picture, perhaps calmer heads will prevail?

Then again, the DJD has teamed up with just about every Destron from both the anime and manga versions of TF: Victory, including Deathsauras, Dino King, LioKaiser, and others, so that evens out the playing field a *smidge*...
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Yaya » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:21 am

Professor Smooth wrote: Tarn is going to be revealed to be Roller...but that will be a fake-out. "Roller" exists (now?) in the same way Ultra Magnus did. Under the Roller "armor" is Dominus Ambus. A 'bot who shares his brother's obsessive attention to detail. A bot who seemingly has the power to talk people to death and whose (future) empurata *took away his ability to speak*. And also, the former lover of Rewind, the only survivor of a ship filled with people who DON'T SURVIVE encounters with the DJD.

I'll bite. Roberts has been talking about DA for like two years now. What better way to reveal the guy than cracking open Tarn's/Roller's shell and pulling that nut out.
The two seem quite different from what we know.

DA - Upper class scientist, explorer, philosopher, class warrior / TF rights activist, a crusader as opposed to somebody with self doubt.

Roller - much more of a blue collar all round traditional good bloke, who likes a drink and the TV. Seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex around other elite bots as well - which you could argue means he might chose to hang around with lower classes like Rewind - But I would say that more likely points to him not being the kind of bot confident enough in himself to rally against the system.
If Shockwave once existed as a binocular green/blue Senator with a penchant for jesting and jabbering, then anybody can be anybody in this continuity.

Agree about Nickel though. She obviously understands who and what the DJD are. If there's one thing I can't stand it's genuine motherly compassion for pure evil folk. Creeps me out. Hope Beep Beep or whatever that Jetfire sidekick was called does her in.

Kinda lame how Brainstorm revealed to the DJD that the LL had Overlord, and made them pinkie swear not to hurt anyone else. Not to hurt anyone else??? It's the ****** DJD! Guess Brainstorm really is a jerk Decepticon after all.

Has it ever been mentioned whether that 'nuke' super energon on Messatine is a result of Shockwave's ore seeding? Can't remember.

And I'm really looking foward to seeing the Scavengers and Grimlock back on the scene. It's been too long.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:51 am

Has it ever been mentioned whether that 'nuke' super energon on Messatine is a result of Shockwave's ore seeding? Can't remember.
I think that Nuke was created by the energy displaced when Brainstorm travelled back in time to Messatine at the end of the issue where Trailbreaker dies. That's the impression I got, anyway.
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:18 pm

I think that's the implication.

I like the way the Victory guys named their Transformers, it's really creative.

Take something bad, add it to an animal.

I've thought of some of my own (Or maybe I hacked into Takara and found ACTUAL names of characters they intended to use...)

Centi-paed
Rape Snake.
Git Goat
Social Justice Warrior Ant
Tory crab
Cock Cock.

Lets have some more!
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Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:24 pm

Go on then, I'll do some more:

Deaf-Saurus

Which is what he actually became in order to fight Tarn.

Which makes me ask the question - Did JR deliberately make a character's actions a pun on his own name for his own self amusement?
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Metal Vendetta
Big Honking Planet Eater
Posts: 4950
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Lahndan, innit

Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:14 pm

Gah, I had loads of these but now all I can think of is Miso Hornet
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
Impactor returns 2.0, 28th January 2010

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Metal Vendetta
Big Honking Planet Eater
Posts: 4950
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Lahndan, innit

Re: MTMTE #39

Post by Metal Vendetta » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:55 pm

Pelicancer
Whoremouse
Penguincest
Rabbitch
Gopher Kyourself

...can't believe I forgot Cameltoe
I would have waited a ******* eternity for this!!!!
Impactor returns 2.0, 28th January 2010

snarl
Over Pompous Autobot Commander
Posts: 2646
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: London

Re: MTMTE #39

Post by snarl » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:08 pm

Heron Volk
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