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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:58 am
by Hot Shot
Who voted "Yes"? Show yourselves!

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:12 am
by sprunkner
Shane is obviously an uninspired writer lacking in imagination, yet somehow he has convinced the powers that be that he could pull this off.


It's marketable.

It's really, really marketable. Everyone knows who Megatron is. Everyone knows what happens with the Decepticons win. Say "All Hail Megatron" and people will say "ooh bad guy doing bad things!" You cannot get that from "Revelation."

Which is one reason to call it "Maximum Dinobots" instead of "Expansion." I requested that my store reorder some copies of "Maximum Dinobots" and someone said, "It's really called that? That's awesome!" and someone else said, "Me Grimlock!" and I said, "yeah, you should read it, it's going to be all Dinobots, all the time."

Of course, a six-issue maxi series called "The Dead Universe" with Nemesis Prime's face plastered all over and pics of Galvatron, Cyclonus and the Autobots getting wasted--that's pretty good too. It's all in where the editorial team chooses to focus.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:59 pm
by Mr_Tigg
arkonseal Wrote:
I do think it's a little sad that there's so few votes on the poll on each board, even on the busier ones. For all the nerdiness that being a TF fan entails, you'd think there'd be more interest in the comics. Or maybe most comics-reading TF fans just don't frequent the message boards?


I get a vibe that the vast majority of fans on the other TF forums are more toy collectors than comic enthusiasts.

I was reading the thread posted over at tfw2005 and a few people where like "what on earth is AHM?!?".

I find it quite strange, because my current enthusiasm for transformers was born out of the quality comics IDW had been publishing (pre-AHM). I'm still not overly fussed about the toys (although I have a few now), as I have always been a comic collector as oppose to a toy enthusiast (I always find when I buy toys I feel like I'm taking my geekiness too far!!).

Until the IDW relaunch came along I didn't really give too much of a monkeys about the franchise (beyond fond memories from my childhood). My enthusiasm has grown with each passing issue of the -tion arc, however with AHM I have found my enthusiasm dying with every passing month as a new uninspired issue is released upon the public.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:30 pm
by Yaya
arkonseal wrote:I do think it's a little sad that there's so few votes on the poll on each board, even on the busier ones. For all the nerdiness that being a TF fan entails, you'd think there'd be more interest in the comics. Or maybe most comics-reading TF fans just don't frequent the message boards?


No, I think the reason is because the comics haven't grown up at the pace we have.

I think that because Transformers are toy based, they have lagged behind in the story department for the sake of the kiddies.

I don't care who has written Transformers, whether it be Simon, Shane, Brad Mick, Sarracini, Budiansky, etc, none of them have really ever met the potential behind Tranformers in appealing to an adult audience.

What I mean by mature is a story that has some impact, some lesson, that goes beyond the "good vs. evil" theme and actually touches upon some of the heavier, more meaningful elements of our lives.

Themes like death, faith, prejudice, political corruption, religious fanaticism, corporate greed, etc. are never really dealt with in Transformers stories, as they are considered too "heavy" for the younger crowd. They might be hinted at, say in an interview by the writer, but when you see the final product, again, it's a tale that is told in a way as to not leave the little ones behind.

And that hurts.

I would love to see Transformers used as a platform to serve as a sort of commentary on the human condition, whilst craftily being delivered in a fashion that in some way still harkens back to the way the bots were of our childhood.

Not an easy feat, but for an accomplished writer who has familiarity with the Transformers, it certainly is possible.

Some one (?Simon) called Infiltration a sort of Transformers:Ultimates.
That ain't no Ultimates, not by any stretch.

We haven't seen a Transformers:Ultimates.

When we do, I think you'll see fans, who are mostly now in their 20's and 30's and much more in tune with the workings of politics, religion, and just the challenges of real life in general, jump back on board a TF comic.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:29 pm
by spiderfrommars
arkonseal wrote:
I do think it's a little sad that there's so few votes on the poll on each board, even on the busier ones. For all the nerdiness that being a TF fan entails, you'd think there'd be more interest in the comics. Or maybe most comics-reading TF fans just don't frequent the message boards?


Perhaps the plan is to appeal to the type of readers that don't frequent message boards. It didn't do the movie any harm...

It's heartening to see that the combination of the 'Nays' and 'Jury's Out' votes on all the polls are outnumbering the 'Yays'.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:03 pm
by Cattleprod
Mr_Tigg wrote:It really makes me wonder about how IDW reach their decisions regarding creatives - Shane is obviously an uninspired writer lacking in imagination, yet somehow he has convinced the powers that be that he could pull this off.


AHM probably sounded better as a pitch. From the number of complaints about it not reaching the full potential of the basic concept, I can really see that being the case.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:06 pm
by sprunkner
Yaya The Talking Monkey wrote:
Themes like death, faith, prejudice, political corruption, religious fanaticism, corporate greed, etc. are never really dealt with in Transformers stories, as they are considered too "heavy" for the younger crowd. They might be hinted at, say in an interview by the writer, but when you see the final product, again, it's a tale that is told in a way as to not leave the little ones behind.


This is true--and it will happen eventually, but it might take as long as it took superheroes to get from Stan Lee to Alan Moore, methinks.

It might happen in a series with very little-used, forgotten characters as well, or with an all-new cast.

Furman, I think, has been able to hint at these things with, for example, Matrix Quest 4--where the previously pure matrix becomes corrupted just because it wants to be. Beast Wars did the best it could with Transmutate. But for the most part, Furman has been the best because of his consistent ability to channel "wow" factor and give us mind-blowing space opera.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:09 pm
by Jack Cade
Mr Tigg wrote:Until the IDW relaunch came along I didn't really give too much of a monkeys about the franchise (beyond fond memories from my childhood). My enthusiasm has grown with each passing issue of the -tion arc, however with AHM I have found my enthusiasm dying with every passing month as a new uninspired issue is released upon the public.


Very similar to my experience, except that I also had some of the Marvel comics when I was younger and remembered them being far more grown up than the TV series. Some of the violent scenes really stuck with me - Bumblebee being captured and mutilated, the Ratchet/Megatron fusion and the whole City of Fear arc. I also remembered the episode where Goldbug gets seriously wounded trying to stop Autobots savagely fighting each other.

But yeah, I had all but consigned Transformers to my past (picked up one issue of Dreamwave's run, quickly forgot about it). It was the IDW comics that reignited my interest.

I sort of agree with Yaya too:

Yaya wrote:I don't care who has written Transformers, whether it be Simon, Shane, Brad Mick, Sarracini, Budiansky, etc, none of them have really ever met the potential behind Tranformers in appealing to an adult audience.


As much as I prefer Furman's story to the subject of this thread, I did always have things to criticise, and although things like super-invulnerable characters can be explained, it was a bit disappointing how quickly we got to them. The first couple of issues of Infiltration were full of realistic damage and convincing alien weaponry. What happened to that?

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:22 pm
by sprunkner
This poll is still majority "yes" on IDW's board.

(goes off to create alt-ids)

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:26 pm
by spiderfrommars
sprunkner wrote:This poll is still majority "yes" on IDW's board.



44% is a majority?

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:08 pm
by Yaya
Interestingly, the same poll is a three-way neck and neck and neck sort of deal on TFW2005 and the Allspark.

Never actually seen a three-choice poll that close.

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:21 am
by arkonseal
Yaya wrote:Interestingly, the same poll is a three-way neck and neck and neck sort of deal on TFW2005 and the Allspark.

Never actually seen a three-choice poll that close.


I think it about fits with the reactions and reviews thus far.

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:18 am
by Warcry
Jack Cade wrote:As much as I prefer Furman's story to the subject of this thread, I did always have things to criticise, and although things like super-invulnerable characters can be explained, it was a bit disappointing how quickly we got to them. The first couple of issues of Infiltration were full of realistic damage and convincing alien weaponry. What happened to that?

I really don't think Furman's heart was ever in it, in retrospect. The things that made Infiltration unique, the things that made it really stand out to me -- the galaxy-wide secret war, the Decepticons taking over entire worlds without anyone even knowing that they're there and the Autobots trying to stop them without revealing their own presence, and entire worlds being left ablaze in the Transformers' wake -- he phased those things out pretty quickly. Stormbringer was all about grandiose space opera, the Machination/Skywatch slowly stole the focus of the Earth stories and most of his spotlights either tied into one of those two arcs or were planting seeds for the Dead Universe.

None of those three stories are bad by any stretch of the imagination, but none of them stand out to me as something unique, something that could only have happened in the IDWverse. To me they seem like standard Furman stories, complete with the same cliches, tropes and Furmanisms that you can see in his earlier work and that Infiltration (for the most part) had avoided. It really just feels like he retreated back into his comfort zone as soon as the IDW-mandated origin story was over with.

I remember when Infiltration was fresh in everyone's minds and the boards were full of speculation over how the situation on Earth would evolve and how the Decepticons' phased invasion would progress. But after the first part of Escalation, things like the Reapers, an army of Sunstreakers and Megatron going batshit insane derailed the plot to the point where we never got to see that, and now probably never will.

That, IMO, is the saddest part of this whole thing.

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:47 pm
by Yaya
Warcry wrote:None of those three stories are bad by any stretch of the imagination, but none of them stand out to me as something unique, something that could only have happened in the IDWverse. To me they seem like standard Furman stories, complete with the same cliches, tropes and Furmanisms that you can see in his earlier work and that Infiltration (for the most part) had avoided. It really just feels like he retreated back into his comfort zone as soon as the IDW-mandated origin story was over with.


Well said. Pretty much how I felt about the direction things were going.

Wasn't bad, but certainly not living up to it's potential.

Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:22 pm
by sprunkner
Warcry wrote:
Jack Cade wrote:As much as I prefer Furman's story to the subject of this thread, I did always have things to criticise, and although things like super-invulnerable characters can be explained, it was a bit disappointing how quickly we got to them. The first couple of issues of Infiltration were full of realistic damage and convincing alien weaponry. What happened to that?

I really don't think Furman's heart was ever in it, in retrospect. The things that made Infiltration unique, the things that made it really stand out to me -- the galaxy-wide secret war, the Decepticons taking over entire worlds without anyone even knowing that they're there and the Autobots trying to stop them without revealing their own presence, and entire worlds being left ablaze in the Transformers' wake -- he phased those things out pretty quickly. Stormbringer was all about grandiose space opera, the Machination/Skywatch slowly stole the focus of the Earth stories and most of his spotlights either tied into one of those two arcs or were planting seeds for the Dead Universe.

None of those three stories are bad by any stretch of the imagination, but none of them stand out to me as something unique, something that could only have happened in the IDWverse. To me they seem like standard Furman stories, complete with the same cliches, tropes and Furmanisms that you can see in his earlier work and that Infiltration (for the most part) had avoided. It really just feels like he retreated back into his comfort zone as soon as the IDW-mandated origin story was over with.

I remember when Infiltration was fresh in everyone's minds and the boards were full of speculation over how the situation on Earth would evolve and how the Decepticons' phased invasion would progress. But after the first part of Escalation, things like the Reapers, an army of Sunstreakers and Megatron going batshit insane derailed the plot to the point where we never got to see that, and now probably never will.

That, IMO, is the saddest part of this whole thing.


Really? I thought Escalation was the best TF story since Generation 2. I don't think he retreated into his comfort zone so much as wrote to his strengths after a while. Infiltration was just too slow for a guy who could squeeze epic drama into a tiny weekly comic in the UK. Once he got rolling, he got his space opera on, his mystery and multiple subplots on--it was great. I never hoped for a TF story I would love as much as the original Marvels, just because of the getting older business and becoming more critical--but the whole IDW initial arc I loved as much as Matrix Quest, Edge of Extinction, and Generation 2.

That's why AHM is so disappointing--the whole IDW arc so far has been everything fans hoped for.

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:41 am
by Warcry
sprunkner wrote:Really? I thought Escalation was the best TF story since Generation 2.

I wouldn't rate Escalation as highly as I do Infiltration or Stormbringer, because it didn't fit the miniseries format as well. The Brasnya stuff was self-contained and did a nice job ratcheting up the tension of the Bot/Con conflict. The Machination stuff, on the other hand, felt like half of a story. If they'd given Simon an ongoing there would be no problem with the two stories moving at different paces, but in a six-issue mini (well, actually in a six-issue trade, but still) it just didn't work for me.

Since IDW seem to be married to the miniseries concept, it would have made a lot more sense to chop Escalation and Devastation to 4 issues a piece and spin all of the Machination stuff into a separate 4 issue mini of its' own.

All of that is pretty far afield from what I was trying to say before, though. :)

sprunkner wrote:I don't think he retreated into his comfort zone so much as wrote to his strengths after a while.

I can see where you're coming from. Maybe we see it from different angles because we were hoping for different things?

When I read Infiltration, I was fascinated by the world it laid out and I was really hoping to explore it in more depth. What I got instead were stories that weren't that different from the ones that Simon had given us previously (albeit better than most of what came before).

As an aside, I felt the same way about the second and third War Within series. The Dark Ages introduced the concept of multiple groups of Autobots and Decepticons working at cross-purposes with each other, which intrigued the hell out of me. But the idea was tossed aside in favour of the Fallen about half-way though, then abandoned completely in the Age of Wrath.

The issue is as much about me and my expectations as it is about failings in the stories themselves. But I really wish Furman would do something with these interesting paradigms he introduces, other than use them as backdrops for the sort of stories that cater to his strengths.

sprunkner wrote:That's why AHM is so disappointing--the whole IDW arc so far has been everything fans hoped for.

Without high doses of Spinister? Heresy! ;)

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:39 pm
by sprunkner
Warcry wrote:Without high doses of Spinister? Heresy! ;)


Heresy indeed... also, the lack of a Spotlight: Bumblebee where he kills a Decepticon in cold blood.

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:57 pm
by Denyer
arkonseal wrote:maybe most comics-reading TF fans just don't frequent the message boards?

I think it's more that most of them don't care very much anymore. In particular, Max Dinos is seen as a wrap-up exercise after a botched conclusion to the 'dead universe' saga and then we're done. Or possibly I'm reading my general opinion too strongly into other reactions.

A related issue is value for money; Diamond UK has increased wholesaler prices, which is going to make singles look even less attractive against trades over here.

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:11 am
by sprunkner
There is no hope no hope no hope no hope at all...

Look at some of these bloody favorite scenes they list.

http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopi ... 34&start=0

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:54 am
by Hot Shot
Mecha-man wrote:8. Favorite scene from ANY TF comic?
Optimus Prime being called Jetfire in translated comics (only for 4 issues).

Oh, come on. That's downright stupid.

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:08 am
by sprunkner
Hot Shot wrote:
Mecha-man wrote:8. Favorite scene from ANY TF comic?
Optimus Prime being called Jetfire in translated comics (only for 4 issues).

Oh, come on. That's downright stupid.


I got a kick out of that.

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:54 am
by arkonseal
Denyer wrote:
arkonseal wrote:maybe most comics-reading TF fans just don't frequent the message boards?

I think it's more that most of them don't care very much anymore. In particular, Max Dinos is seen as a wrap-up exercise after a botched conclusion to the 'dead universe' saga and then we're done. Or possibly I'm reading my general opinion too strongly into other reactions.

A related issue is value for money; Diamond UK has increased wholesaler prices, which is going to make singles look even less attractive against trades over here.


I don't doubt that there's a number of disaffected readers, but overall there's still got to be at least a few thousand people who follow the comics, right? But it doesn't feel like that's reflected in forums. So are 95% or so of readers really not interested in the online fandom, or do they just stay quiet on the topic of comics alone?

Regarding the future, there's been some vague statements that suggest there will be more from Furman at least (aside from the 13, I hope), so Max Dinos might not represent the last gasp of non-AHM styled stories that you think.

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:38 pm
by Jack Cade
Warcry wrote:None of those three stories are bad by any stretch of the imagination, but none of them stand out to me as something unique, something that could only have happened in the IDWverse.


Pretty much agree. Escalation was excellent. Stormbringer was a great romp. Devastation was a decent 'bridging' story and some of the spotlights were terrific, either as standalones or supplemental chapters.

But Infiltration was the first and last time I read a Transformers story and thought, "I could be reading this for the first time, with no idea who or what Transformers are, and I'd be hooked." The first time you encounter any of them in robot form, on the last panel of number 1, it's done with such attention to detail that you really do see, imo, two cars that have just transformed into towering hulks, not just 'the battlechargers'. People on the boards were speculating, at various points, along the lines of: Are the Autobots going to have to kill the humans, or at least shut them up for a long while? Is Ratchet dead? The TFs meant business. The Autobots were holding guns to the heads of their own. They didn't muck around learning about 'Earth culture'. One of the main human characters, who we're supposed to sympathise with, was a remorseless criminal. Even Bumblebee was a bit of a sneaky git.

I actually lent my six copies of Infiltration out to people and said, "Read it." As good as Escalation is, I can't do that with the same confidence, because I feel that there are certain things you have to know and accept about Transformers lore in order to enjoy it properly (ie. space shuttles are treated the same as fighterplanes.)

arkonseal wrote:I don't doubt that there's a number of disaffected readers, but overall there's still got to be at least a few thousand people who follow the comics, right? But it doesn't feel like that's reflected in forums.


Only a small number of any group will frequent Internet forums. Outside of the people I encounter through forums, I don't really know anyone else who bothers with them, whatever their interests. Plus, TF ones are full of Internet memes and other cliquey things.

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:43 am
by KJ
http://www.4shared.com/file/79585391/3d ... 1.html?s=1

Mods, feel free to delete if this isn't appropriate.

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:19 pm
by Sunyavadin
KJ wrote:http://www.4shared.com/file/79585391/3d47d179/Transformers_-_All_Hail_Megatron_1_THE_PHANTOM_EDIT_REVISION_1.html?s=1

Mods, feel free to delete if this isn't appropriate.



IDW, even this guy is better than McCarthy.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:37 pm
by Denyer
"They lied to us! The whole planet is made out of cake!"

****ing hell that's brilliant.

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:15 pm
by Sunyavadin
Mmmm.... cake.....